When did John the Baptist Get saved?

[Me4Him]

Mal 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:

Mt 17:10 And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias (Elijah) must first come?

11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.

12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.

13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.

Mt 17:2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.

3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.

Zec 4:11 Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?

12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?

13 And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.

14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.

Re 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses,

4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

Scripture has both a "spiritual" and "literal" application, covering both coming of Jesus.

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by doulous:

I'm not taking the cowardly approach, but I don't know what I believe regarding infants. We know that the Pelagian "clean slate" view of original sin is heresy. Orange made that clear. But if we believe that elect babies are regenerated prior to conversion, we are left to conclude that all of the elect are born regenerate. It's a sticky wicket no matter how you slice it. If I came out and said, "Babies who die go to hell because they have not excercised faith" I would be stoned by both Arminians and Calvinists.

Honestly J.D., I am pleading ignorance on the infant issue. I pray the Lord gives me understanding. [/QB]

Ge 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Ge 3:7 And the eyes of them both were opened,

Ge 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: (eyes open to sin)

Joh 9:41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

Do babies know 'Good/evil", if not, they are blind to sin and have no sin.

This is why the "age of accountable" is taught.

 

[doulous]

ME4Him said:

Ge 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Ge 3:7 And the eyes of them both were opened,

Ge 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: (eyes open to sin)

Joh 9:41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

Do babies know 'Good/evil", if not, they are blind to sin and have no sin.

This is why the "age of accountable" is taught.

No, I don't see and age of accountability. Firstly, your Genesis passages have nothing to do with age, they are the result of Adam's willful sin. Adam's sin was not predicated on age.

In John 9:41 Jesus was rebuking the Pharisee's for putting the blind man out of the synagouge. Their response had nothing to do with age.

I'm sorry ME. I just don't see an exegetical argument for the age of accountability.

 

[Servent]

Originally posted by blackbird:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Brother Bob:
Never was Lost. Predestinated to be a forerunner of Christ but because Adam sinned he had to die the natural death.

So---what you're saying is---Jesus told Nicodemus "Ye must be born again"----but that truth did not apply to John the Baptist?? Is that what you're saying??

And that when Jesus told Nicodemus---"Unless a man be born of water and of the Spirit he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God"---that was for Nicodemus---but not John??

I'm sorry, dear brother! But you are in err concerning the Scripture! </font>[/QUOTE]If John recived the Holy Spirit in the womb, would that make him born of water and the spirit.

 

[drfuss]

John the Baptist was under the law. When did any of the O.T. saints get saved?

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by Servent:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by blackbird:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Brother Bob:
Never was Lost. Predestinated to be a forerunner of Christ but because Adam sinned he had to die the natural death.

So---what you're saying is---Jesus told Nicodemus "Ye must be born again"----but that truth did not apply to John the Baptist?? Is that what you're saying??

And that when Jesus told Nicodemus---"Unless a man be born of water and of the Spirit he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God"---that was for Nicodemus---but not John??

I'm sorry, dear brother! But you are in err concerning the Scripture! </font>[/QUOTE]If John recived the Holy Spirit in the womb, would that make him born of water and the spirit. </font>[/QUOTE]Joh 4:10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.

Joh 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

15 The woman saith unto him, Sir, give me this water, that I thirst not, neither come hither to draw.

This "Water" Jesus offer the woman at the well is the Knowledge of the Lord, that is to "Hear/believe" his words.

Nicodemus understood the rebith to be "physical" but Jesus explained it was "Spiritual", and so is the "Water".

Joh 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.


Knowledge of the lord (water) and Spirit, equals "Born again".

The earth is going to be covered by water again, as it was in Noah's day, but the next time it will be this "Spiritual water" Jesus gave the woman at the well. (MK)

Isa 11:9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by J.D.:
I think the weight of the argument for regeneration without means is in the constistency of its application to all of the elect - in other words, if regeneration is the ESSENTIAL transaction for acceptance into God's eternal kingdom, and I believe it is, then by what MEANS are the unborn or infants regenerated? Unless you accept the theory that infants die in innocence, in which case you must explain how they are descended from Adam and yet innocent, sin having passed upon all men.

I believe that God can (and does) regenerate infants who die without means. This does not make it the norm however.

I think this makes the teaching that God does not use means for regeneraion, but does use the means of the Gospel to bring about conversion, very consistant.

Only one problem:

1 Peter 1:22-23 Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, 23 having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever

This verse places the purification of their souls (justification) from their obeying the truth (faith). Good so far. But look at verse 23. Being born again (regeneration) comes through the word of God. The means is the preaching of the word of God.

I do believe what Jesus says in John 3 that the wind blows wherever it wants, and the Spirit is sovereign in regeneration. But it seems that when taken with 1 Peter that the Spirit uses His sword to regenerate. This would be the norm, with the regeneration of infants being the exception.

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by Me4Him:
Scripture has both a "spiritual" and "literal" application, covering both coming of Jesus.

Question about your chart here ME4. Are you saying that the resurrection comes at the beginning of the 7th millenium of world history? That is a typical Jewish mystic belief, but there is a problem. We are in the 7th millenium and ain't nothin happuned.

 

[Brother Bob]

Blackbird;
You do err concerning the Scriptures, for John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Ghost in his mother's womb in case you forgot. He came baptizing with water, wonder who baptized him if he was not sent of God?

12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.

So do you see that God was putting His plan of Salvation into action beginning with John the Baptist? He came to make ready a prepared people.

[ May 09, 2006, 05:16 PM: Message edited by: Brother Bob ]

 

[Brother Bob]

doulous;
That is the smartest answer I seen yet concerning infants.

 

[Brother Bob]

J D;
You are saying Adam brought both the natural and the spiritual death on us, both the natural and the second death. I believe Adam brought the natural death and that is why infants die but they don't have a spiritual death for they have not sinned themselve. The spiritual death comes because we sin not because of Adam or our sins would mean nothing.

 

[doulous]

Adam brought the natural death and that is why infants die but they don't have a spiritual death for they have not sinned themselve. The spiritual death comes because we sin not because of Adam or our sins would mean nothing.

Bob, you are denying original sin and actually introducing the possibility of sinless perfection from birth. You are stepping on the doorstep of the Palagian heresy. I suggest you acquaint yourself with what Pelagius taught.


The Pelagian heresy

 

[Salamander]

Originally posted by Brother Bob:
Never was Lost. Predestinated to be a forerunner of Christ but because Adam sinned he had to die the natural death.

So you believe the O.T. saints bypass the Blood of Christ!??

If that were true, and it's not, then Jesus would have died in vain and it was alright for His own to not receive Him as long as they kept the Law.

I believe the saints in "prison" being those in Paradise accepted the preaching of Christ by Christ Himself and were the firstfruits of the Ressurrection. Y'know, those who were seen walking the streets astonishing the ones yet in unbelief!

 

[Salamander]

BTW, I still believe all must receive the Word of God before they can be saved as Acts 2:41 clearly states, just as John the Baptist received the Gospel of Jesus Christ in prison.

 

[Brother Bob]

How does those babies we talked about before receive the word of God.
John was a man sent of God. That is what the Scriptures say. He was one of the two witnesses that received the Holy Ghost Baptism before He was ever born. When Jesus died a fountain was open and half to the hinder sea and half to the former sea. Half covered those back under the law and the other half covered us. John the Baptist was part of setting up God's plan of Salvation and a forerunner of Christ which was sent of God. He was Elias (if you will have it). We could never reach John the Baptists statue and I for one know that. He was able to look right into the hearts of those Pharisees that came to be Baptized and knew they didn't have the fruits and called them devils. We can't look in a man's heart we have to look on the outside. John was a chosen person, think about it, a man sent to baptize our Lord.

If you believe that the world can receive the Holy Ghost then what you say about John would be true but the world can't receive the Holy Ghost. Amen

 

[Brother Bob]

doulous;
We are born with a sinful nature but without sin. In order to sin we must transgress the Law and infants just don't do that until the Law enters them. Doulous, infants have the natural death pronounced upon them but they must sin for the spiritual death and I say they are without sin for where there is no law, sin is not imputed. Those Scriptures were not put in the Bible for nothing and I don't care who it sounds like, it is the truth.

 

[Salamander]

Now i see the problem, Bro. Bob is borderline charismatic and very indoctrinated with heretical beliefs.Those are heretical because there are not any scriptures to back up what he belives but only conjecture.

When John the Baptist sent his disciples to enquire of Jesus they returned with the O.T&gt; prophecies fulfilled only by the Messiah and he then recieved that and by faith died trusting in Jesus.

You have it as if John the Baptist was some sort angeliic being and even godlike to see into men's hearts.

 

[Brother Bob]

He was a special person. How many people you know that were filled with the Holy Ghost from their mother's womb? Also, the mother of Jesus visited the mother of John and when she told she was with child is when the Holy Ghost leaped. That is Scripture and I don't appreciate you saying I am charismatic, heretical. You need to look in a mirror before judging others. Because you can't answer my Scriptural questions is no reason to start attacking me with accusations. Jesus is the one who called him "Elias" do you call him a charismatic, heretical person too for I simply stated what the Lord said. You do err sir.

 

[Salamander]

I know there was a donkey that spoke the words of God, does that make him saved too??

 

[Brother Bob]

Luke, chapter 9
"33": And it came to pass, as they departed from him, Peter said unto Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias : not knowing what he said.

KJMatt.17
11": And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.

"12": But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.

" 13": Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.


Careful of making a mockery of the Lord.