When did regeneration occur?

[TCassidy]

Looking at the chart, and checking back on Romans 10:14-15, coult the Ethiopian eunuch have gleaned the Gospel call from reading Isaiah?

Great question. I believe the Isaiah reading can very well constitute a Gospel call. He still desired some additional explanation, he already believed in the Messiah, but all he really wanted was the identity of the Person in question, which Philip provided.

Or maybe I should ask, is that same order applicable to the Old Testament saints?

Another good question! I believe the Ordo Salutis is universal. The same from Genesis through Revelation. God only has one "plan of salvation."

 

[thatbrian]

Sure.

And what about your new strawman argument?

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL

If there are people sitting in church pews who are not Christians, then they are not "seeking God". There are other reasons for attending Church, walking isles and praying "sinner's prayers".

 

[InTheLight]

If there are people sitting in church pews who are not Christians, then they are not "seeking God". There are other reasons for attending Church, walking isles and praying "sinner's prayers".

I want everyone to see this.

You are asserting that people who go to church, read the Bible, pray, respond to invitations to repent and believe--these people ARE NOT seeking God. I concede they may not be truly born again.

I know that Calvinists like to play with word definitions, i.e. "all" does not mean everyone; "world" does not mean everyone, but really, this is the furthest stretch of a definition I've ever seen!

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL

 

[kyredneck]

coult the Ethiopian eunuch have gleaned the Gospel call from reading Isaiah?

Were the Jews of Christ's day able to 'glean' the gospel from THEIR OWN scriptures? No. Check this out:

13 for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified:
14 (for when Gentiles that have not the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are the law unto themselves;
15 in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness therewith, and their thoughts one with another accusing or else excusing them); Ro 2

How did non-Jews who neither had the law nor were hearers of the law become equipped with the law written in their hearts? (how did those of v 29 become 'circumcised of heart'?)

John 3:8, that's how.

 

[thatbrian]

You are asserting that people who go to church, read the Bible, pray, respond to invitations to repent and believe--these people ARE NOT seeking God.

The Pharisees were in the synagogue every time the doors were open. Were they seeking God? Jesus called them sons of Satan.

There are two ways to avoid/ignore God. One way is religion (elder brother). The other way is the way of the Prodigal Son.

 

[kyredneck]

coult the Ethiopian eunuch have gleaned the Gospel call from reading Isaiah?

The more pertinent question would be 'what drew the Ethiopian Eunuch to the scriptures to begin with'?

 

[thatbrian]

The more pertinent question would be 'what drew the Ethiopian Eunuch to the scriptures to begin with'?

Or, better still, who drew him?

 

[Reformed]

So when was he regenerated?

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL

The problem with your question is that you are asking a theological question based on an anecdotal account. We do not know JDF. The only thing we can do is determine what scripture says on the topic. I have no problem accepting that God orders events in lives of His elect to bring them to the place and time when they will come to faith. I know this is anecdotal (gotta love the irony), but when I was a boy I encountered a series of serious events that almost took my life. I was exposed to the gospel as a 3rd grader but did not believe until one month removed from my 18th birthday. Was I regenerated back in 3rd grade only to finally believe in my senior year of high school? No. I did not truly believe in 3rd grade. Did God use that experience to finally bring me to faith? Sure. That is not inconsistent with a Mongerist understanding of scripture. God orders events to bring about His desired result. That is what being sovereign is all about.

 

[Reformed]

I never used the word "before". But let's stipulate that was my meaning.

The Magi sought Jesus and traveled far to see him. If they were regenerated they must have been regenerated before they started their search, right?



Sent from my Pixel 2 XL

I apologize. I added the word "before".

Why must the Magi have been regenerated before they started their search? See the other response I made to you about my own personal journey to faith. God ordering events in a person's life does not mean regeneration has taken place.

 

[Reformed]

Wow, Calvinists manufacture definitions to shoehorn their theology, making it force fit into situations.

If attending church, reading the Bible, praying, and responding to invitations to believe in Jesus is NOT seeking God, but rather is idolatry, you guys have got big problems with credibility.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL

Friend, I cannot speak for Tom, but theologically speaking, no one seeks after God (Romans 3). Humanly speaking Sure. I am not going to get all bent out of shape if someone says to me, "I was seeking after God..." I know that any "seeking" a person does is in response to God ordering events in their life. Sometimes my friends on the Synergist side get upset with me because I try to be precise with theological terms. I do so because words mean things and I want to be careful not to mispresent God.

 

[kyredneck]

Or, better still, who drew him?

...whoever, whatever, sheesh....

 

[Iconoclast]

AdamL,
Hello AdamL,
Welcome to Baptistboard,

I have a question for our Calvinist brothers and sisters about regeneration. If my understanding of the Doctrines of Grace is incorrect then please feel free to correct me.

All questions are good

Because of the total inability of man to come to God in any way man must first be regenerated and then can be granted the gifts of faith and repentance.

Yes....unsaved men can be very religious and sometimes this religious activity can be mistaken for "seeking God".

In lieu of this, would that mean that the Ethiopian Eunuch and the Roman Cornelius were regenerated before they ever met Philip or Peter and heard the Gospel of Jesus Christ?

Keep in mind that it is God who seeks sinners He intends to save...Jesus has promised to seek His sheep. Not one will be lost.
When God effectually draws and saves someone He uses whatever means He does to convict and draw that person to truth;
Chapter 10: Of Effectual Calling
1._____ Those whom God hath predestinated unto life, he is pleased in his appointed, and accepted time, effectually to call, by his Word and Spirit, out of that state of sin and death in which they are by nature, to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ; enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God; taking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them a heart of flesh; renewing their wills, and by his almighty power determining them to that which is good, and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ; yet so as they come most freely, being made willing by his grace.
( Romans 8:30; Romans 11:7; Ephesians 1:10, 11; 2 Thessalonians 2:13, 14; Ephesians 2:1-6; Acts 26:18; Ephesians 1:17, 18; Ezekiel 36:26; Deuteronomy 30:6; Ezekiel 36:27; Ephesians 1:19; Psalm 110:3;Song of Solomon 1:4 )
2._____ This effectual call is of God's free and special grace alone, not from anything at all foreseen in man, nor from any power or agency in the creature, being wholly passive therein, being dead in sins and trespasses, until being quickened and renewed by the Holy Spirit; he is thereby enabled to answer this call, and to embrace the grace offered and conveyed in it, and that by no less power than that which raised up Christ from the dead.
( 2 Timothy 1:9; Ephesians 2:8; 1 Corinthians 2:14; Ephesians 2:5; John 5:25; Ephesians 1:19, 20 )

3._____ Elect infants dying in infancy are regenerated and saved by Christ through the Spirit; who worketh when, and where, and how he pleases; so also are all elect persons, who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word.
( John 3:3, 5, 6; John 3:8 )

4._____ Others not elected, although they may be called by the ministry of the Word, and may have some common operations of the Spirit, yet not being effectually drawn by the Father, they neither will nor can truly come to Christ, and therefore cannot be saved: much less can men that receive not the Christian religion be saved; be they never so diligent to frame their lives according to the light of nature and the law of that religion they do profess.
( Matthew 22:14; Matthew 13:20, 21; Hebrews 6:4, 5; John 6:44, 45, 65; 1 John 2:24, 25; Acts 4:12; John 4:22; John 17:3 )

The Ethiopian had and read the Scriptures and sought to worship God traveling to Jerusalem to do so and Cornelius was a devout man that feared God, he gave alms and prayed, and even had a vision from God. Both if these accounts can be found in Acts 8 and 10 respectively.

yes...we are not told everything leading up to this seeking....

I would say that both of these men were sincere in what they were doing not putting on a show for men as the Pharisees did. So my question is were they regenerated before they met Philip and Peter which gave them the ability to want to do these things such as read the Scriptures and pray and then they were granted faith and repentance upon hearing the Gospel? If that is the case when were they regenerated? If that is not the case when were they regenerated and how did they seek God in an unregenerate state

For whatever reason they were brought to this place in their life.
I know of people who were reading the bible to mock and ridicule it, but when the Spirit quickens the word to them....it is all over...

 

[AdamL]

I appreciate everyone's responses so far.

There are some conflicting responses, kyredneck says that yes they were both saved before meeting Philip or Peter and being presented with the Gospel. Reformed took the position that they could not be saved without hearing the Gospel and that regeneration, faith, repentance, and justification would practically be instantaneous but regeneration must precede faith and repentance.

@kyredneck- when would they have bee regenerated? How could they be regenerated without the power of the Gospel?

@Reformed- I have had many Calvinist tell me that a person could be regenerated moments, hours, days, months, or even years before they showed signs of regeneration. How do we explain this?

Another question to anyone is that many have claimed that the things these men were doing were not seeking God. As Iconoclast put it unsaved men can be very religious and sometimes this religious activity can be mistaken for "seeking God". So how are we to see the fruit of the Spirit in someone's life? How do we that are saved seek to draw closer to God? I would imagine it would involve reading and studying the Scriptures and communication with our Heavenly Father through prayer, being involved in our local congregation and giving alms to help support it and it's work. How is this different than what these men exhibited? If a person gets saved you would expect them to attend services, read their bible, pray, get involved in ministry in some capacity.

 

[thatbrian]

I appreciate everyone's responses so far.

There are some conflicting responses, kyredneck says that yes they were both saved before meeting Philip or Peter and being presented with the Gospel. Reformed took the position that they could not be saved without hearing the Gospel and that regeneration, faith, repentance, and justification would practically be instantaneous but regeneration must precede faith and repentance.

@kyredneck- when would they have bee regenerated? How could they be regenerated without the power of the Gospel?

@Reformed- I have had many Calvinist tell me that a person could be regenerated moments, hours, days, months, or even years before they showed signs of regeneration. How do we explain this?

Another question to anyone is that many have claimed that the things these men were doing were not seeking God. As Iconoclast put it unsaved men can be very religious and sometimes this religious activity can be mistaken for "seeking God". So how are we to see the fruit of the Spirit in someone's life? How do we that are saved seek to draw closer to God? I would imagine it would involve reading and studying the Scriptures and communication with our Heavenly Father through prayer, being involved in our local congregation and giving alms to help support it and it's work. How is this different than what these men exhibited? If a person gets saved you would expect them to attend services, read their bible, pray, get involved in ministry in some capacity.

Weeds and wheat grow side by side. Yes. They both do many of the same things. Ther attend worship services, give money to support the church, pray, sing. . . The difference is one group is doing those things in an attempt to justify themselves and the other because they are already justified.

 

[kyredneck]

kyredneck says that yes they were both saved before meeting Philip or Peter and being presented with the Gospel.

Did not say they were 'saved'. Pay attention and don't misreprsent me. They were 'born from above' BEFORE ever 'recieving' Christ.

 

[Reformed]

I have had many Calvinist tell me that a person could be regenerated moments, hours, days, months, or even years before they showed signs of regeneration. How do we explain this?

There are those on the Monergist side who believe that a person can be regenerated for an indefinite period before they are converted. I reject that.

 

[kyredneck]

@kyredneck- when would they have bee regenerated? How could they be regenerated without the power of the Gospel?

Before going any farther with you answer me this, do you believe in the total depravity of man?

 

[Iconoclast]

InTheLight

I want everyone to see this.

You are asserting that people who go to church, read the Bible, pray, respond to invitations to repent and believe--these people ARE NOT seeking God. I concede they may not be truly born again.

Did you ever notice that all in the assembly in LK 4 were very religious, until Jesus preached the doctrine of election, then they were filled with rage and wanted to kill God incarnate....

25 But I tell you of a truth, many widows were in Israel in the days of Elias, when the heaven was shut up three years and six months, when great famine was throughout all the land;

26 But unto none of them was Elias sent, save unto Sarepta, a city of Sidon, unto a woman that was a widow.

27 And many lepers were in Israel in the time of Eliseus the prophet; and none of them was cleansed, saving Naaman the Syrian.

28 And all they in the synagogue, when they heard these things, were filled with wrath,

They were religious until election was preached...religious but unsaved.

 

[Reformed]

Another question to anyone is that many have claimed that the things these men were doing were not seeking God. As Iconoclast put it unsaved men can be very religious and sometimes this religious activity can be mistaken for "seeking God". So how are we to see the fruit of the Spirit in someone's life? How do we that are saved seek to draw closer to God? I would imagine it would involve reading and studying the Scriptures and communication with our Heavenly Father through prayer, being involved in our local congregation and giving alms to help support it and it's work. How is this different than what these men exhibited? If a person gets saved you would expect them to attend services, read their bible, pray, get involved in ministry in some capacity.

Reading, studying, and prayer are all activities that are profitable for Christians. By these things, we understand God better. But we should never forget that it is God at work in our lives for the purpose of sanctification. Philippians 1:6 states, "For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus." Who began the good work in us? God. Who is the one who will perfect it? God. The things we do as a result of God working in our lives are the evidence of God doing that work. Ephesians 2:10 states, "For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them." We were created in Christ Jesus for the purpose of doing good; that by doing good (works) we will give glory to God (c.f. Mat. 5:16).

 

[AdamL]

Did not say they were 'saved'. Pay attention and don't misreprsent me. They were 'born from above' BEFORE ever 'recieving' Christ

If I misrepresented you I apologise. That was certainly not my intention. It would be more correct to say that they were regenerated or born from above before hearing the Gospel message?

I would then ask how you are born from above apart from the Gospel.

Before going any farther with you answer me this, do you believe in the total depravity of man?

I believe man is depraved. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: (Rom 7:18) Without the drawing of God and the conviction of the Holy Spirit man cannot see himself as he truly is.

Reading, studying, and prayer are all activities that are profitable for Christians. By these things, we understand God better. But we should never forget that it is God at work in our lives for the purpose of sanctification. Philippians 1:6 states, "For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus." Who began the good work in us? God. Who is the one who will perfect it? God. The things we do as a result of God working in our lives are the evidence of God doing that work. Ephesians 2:10 states, "For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them." We were created in Christ Jesus for the purpose of doing good; that by doing good (works) we will give glory to God (c.f. Mat. 5:16).

How then are we to judge a regenerated man from an unregenerated one? How do we know who is being actively sanctified by God and who is seeking to serve themselves? Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. (Matt 7:20)