When did regeneration occur?

[tyndale1946]

Yes. I would say so. The Spirit works through the Word, and we flawed humans get to help, as well.

Also, God's providence is demonstrated in the story of the Ethiopian. He calls His elect by causing them to be born, live, travel, etc., in certain places where He brings them the gospel. He has it covered from start to finish.

Can I ask a question about regeneration?... You brethren have brought up a lot of people from the scriptures, but you forgot the most important ones... The two criminals crucified with Jesus... The one on the right and the one on the left... Why was one saved and the other one not?... What did one thief do and the other one didn't?... When did any of those two hear the gospel?... I believe that the illustration teaches election but that is another topic... We can all speculate but that is not scripture... Why did the Lord address him and not the other one?... He didn't change himself... Who changed him and why was he changed?... OK!... I'm finished!... Brother Glen

Btw... I have a Deaf son and he has never heard the gospel but he loves the Lord, I didn't teach him and he has never heard the gospel preached!

 

[Jerome]

There are some conflicting responses, kyredneck says that yes they were both saved before meeting Philip or Peter and being presented with the Gospel. Reformed took the position that they could not be saved without hearing the Gospel

Bro. Wm. Crouse explains:

books.google.com/books?id=mm0_DwAAQBAJ&pg=PA98

"Ephesians 2:2-5....Paul says the medium through which this work is accomplished is Christ. Nowhere in his argument here does the Apostle mention the gospel. If God uses the gospel in this work, Paul either did not know it, or knowing it, he failed to make mention of it. Paul cannot be charged with criminal neglect; and since regeneration is one of the fundamentals in the religion of Christ, and in the statement of that doctrine he makes no mention of the use of the gospel, we argue that sinners are NOT regenerated through the instrumentality of the written or spoken Word. Paul learned this doctrine from Christ."

 

[AdamL]

Bro. Wm. Crouse explains:

books.google.com/books?id=mm0_DwAAQBAJ&pg=PA98

"Ephesians 2:2-5....Paul says the medium through which this work is accomplished is Christ. Nowhere in his argument here does the Apostle mention the gospel. If God uses the gospel in this work, Paul either did not know it, or knowing it, he failed to make mention of it. Paul cannot be charged with criminal neglect; and since regeneration is one of the fundamentals in the religion of Christ, and in the statement of that doctrine he makes no mention of the use of the gospel, we argue that sinners are NOT regenerated through the instrumentality of the written or spoken Word. Paul learned this doctrine from Christ."

So based on this explanation a person does not need to hear the Gospel or read the word of God. God just regenerates them...

 

[thatbrian]

Can I ask a question about regeneration?... You brethren have brought up a lot of people from the scriptures, but you forgot the most important ones... The two criminals crucified with Jesus... The one on the right and the one on the left... Why was one saved and the other one not?... What did one thief do and the other one didn't?... When did any of those two hear the gospel?... I believe that the illustration teaches election but that is another topic... We can all speculate but that is not scripture... Why did the Lord address him and not the other one?... He didn't change himself... Who changed him and why was he changed?... OK!... I'm finished!... Brother Glen

Btw... I have a Deaf son and he has never heard the gospel but he loves the Lord, I didn't teach him and he has never heard the gospel preached!

It sounds as though your view is that regeneration occurs apart from and before one "hears" the gospel. Is that correct?

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

Why bother asking a Calvinist/Reformed person on this, as they DO NOT KNOW!

 

[Reformed]

How then are we to judge a regenerated man from an unregenerated one? How do we know who is being actively sanctified by God and who is seeking to serve themselves? Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. (Matt 7:20)

Adam, why do you want to judge a regenerate man from an unregenerate one? What is your motive?

 

[Revmitchell]

Bro. Wm. Crouse explains:

books.google.com/books?id=mm0_DwAAQBAJ&pg=PA98

"Ephesians 2:2-5....Paul says the medium through which this work is accomplished is Christ. Nowhere in his argument here does the Apostle mention the gospel. If God uses the gospel in this work, Paul either did not know it, or knowing it, he failed to make mention of it. Paul cannot be charged with criminal neglect; and since regeneration is one of the fundamentals in the religion of Christ, and in the statement of that doctrine he makes no mention of the use of the gospel, we argue that sinners are NOT regenerated through the instrumentality of the written or spoken Word. Paul learned this doctrine from Christ."

Talk about your heresy

 

[AdamL]

Adam, why do you want to judge a regenerate man from an unregenerate one? What is your motive?

I believe the Bible tells us to do that. Believers are to be separated from unbelievers. We are also to try the spirits to be able to tell the difference between the Spirit of God and the spirit of this world. (II Cor 6:14-17 and I John 4:1-5)

It is of utmost importance that we have and use spiritual discernment in our affairs with believers and unbelievers. We should know who we are spending our time with and if we should be witnessing to that person as an unsaved person or exhorting, encouraging, or admonishing a brother or sister in the Lord. Should we be sitting in our local congregation with blinders on having no idea if those around us are truly our brothers and sisters or not? Should we go through life not watching for opportunities to witness to unbelievers when we are among them?

My motivation then would be to do my part in reaching the lost and challenging and encouraging the brethren.

Can I ask a question about regeneration?... You brethren have brought up a lot of people from the scriptures, but you forgot the most important ones... The two criminals crucified with Jesus... The one on the right and the one on the left... Why was one saved and the other one not?... What did one thief do and the other one didn't?... When did any of those two hear the gospel?... I believe that the illustration teaches election but that is another topic... We can all speculate but that is not scripture... Why did the Lord address him and not the other one?... He didn't change himself... Who changed him and why was he changed?... OK!... I'm finished!... Brother Glen

I believe you are leaving out some critical information in your example. The malefactors knew more than you are letting on. In Luke 23:39 we can see that they knew of Jesus' claim to be the Christ and that the Christ had power that they did not have. Why one of them was convicted of the Holy Spirit to realize his condition and acknowledge Jesus as Lord and ask to be remembered in the Kingdom of God I cannot tell you. I can see from the Scriptures that in Luke 23:40-42 there is evidence of it though. Why is it always asked what one man did and the other did not or what one man possessed and the other did not? Why do some people hear the Gospel many times before they are "effectually called" why would the call ever be ineffectual if they are the elect? Why would God not regenerate His elect right after the very first time they sinned if He is going to regenerate them anyway? Why wait?

Btw... I have a Deaf son and he has never heard the gospel but he loves the Lord, I didn't teach him and he has never heard the gospel preached!

Thank you for sharing about your son. Interestingly enough we had a deaf missionary in our service yesterday evening. Through his interpreter he made an interesting statement. Deaf people can't hear with their ears but they can with their eyes. Regardless of the fact that your son cannot physically hear what is being preached or said it is still communicated to him in a way that he is able to acknowledge and understand. You may not have taught him but someone that is fluent in sign language did. He "heard" the Gospel of his salvation with his eyes, and acknowledgement, acceptance, and belief with his brain and heart happened the same as a person hearing with their ears.

 

[kyredneck]

It sounds as though your view is that regeneration occurs apart from and before one "hears" the gospel. Is that correct?

Exactly. But 'regeneration' is actually the wrong Biblical term for the heavenly birth (which is another topic), which is what occurs apart from the gospel.

 

[thatbrian]

Exactly. But 'regeneration' is actually the wrong Biblical term for the heavenly birth (which is another topic), which is what occurs apart from the gospel.

That would run up against some texts that come to mind, the Parable of the Sower, for starters. How does birth take place without a seed?

 

[kyredneck]

That would run up against some texts that come to mind, the Parable of the Sower, for starters. How does birth take place without a seed?

In the parable, what is the seed? Who is the sower?

 

[kyredneck]

regeneration occurs apart from and before one "hears" the gospel.

There's nothing new here. From R.C. Sproul:

Regeneration Is Immediate

 

[thatbrian]

In the parable, what is the seed? Who is the sower?

The seed is the gospel or the "word of the Kingdom".

"A Farmer" sows the seed.

 

[thatbrian]

There's nothing new here. From R.C. Sproul:

Regeneration Is Immediate

I actually posted the order of salvation from Sproul in post #2. He has the gospel call preceding regeneration, as I do.

 

[kyredneck]

The seed is the gospel or the "word of the Kingdom".

No. Read closer:

19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the evil one, and snatcheth away that which hath been sown in his heart. This is he that was sown by the way side.
20 And he that was sown upon the rocky places, this is he that heareth the word, and straightway with joy receiveth it;
21 yet hath he not root in himself, but endureth for a while; and when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, straightway he stumbleth.
22 And he that was sown among the thorns, this is he that heareth the word; and the care of the world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
23 And he that was sown upon the good ground, this is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; who verily beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty. Mt 13

Move on down to vv 37-38

37 And he answered and said, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38 and the field is the world; and the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil one;

 

[kyredneck]

I actually posted the order of salvation from Sproul in post #2. He has the gospel call preceding regeneration, as I do.

Did you read the piece? It's short. I assumed Ligonier Ministries is the teaching of Sproul.

 

[SheepWhisperer]

I have a question for our Calvinist brothers and sisters about regeneration. If my understanding of the Doctrines of Grace is incorrect then please feel free to correct me.

Because of the total inability of man to come to God in any way man must first be regenerated and then can be granted the gifts of faith and repentance. In lieu of this, would that mean that the Ethiopian Eunuch and the Roman Cornelius were regenerated before they ever met Philip or Peter and heard the Gospel of Jesus Christ? The Ethiopian had and read the Scriptures and sought to worship God traveling to Jerusalem to do so and Cornelius was a devout man that feared God, he gave alms and prayed, and even had a vision from God. Both if these accounts can be found in Acts 8 and 10 respectively.

I would say that both of these men were sincere in what they were doing not putting on a show for men as the Pharisees did. So my question is were they regenerated before they met Philip and Peter which gave them the ability to want to do these things such as read the Scriptures and pray and then they were granted faith and repentance upon hearing the Gospel? If that is the case when were they regenerated? If that is not the case when were they regenerated and how did they seek God in an unregenerate state?

As to Cornelius, lots of people do "good works" but they are still lost. And the Ethiopian Eunuch was searching for truth because he was being "drawn" by the Holy Ghost. A person is not "regenerated" until he becomes a "new creature". Regeneration happens the moment one believes on the Lord Jesus and is instantly indwelled with the Holy Ghost.

 

[kyredneck]

A person is not "regenerated" until he becomes a "new creature". Regeneration happens the moment one believes on the Lord Jesus and is instantly indwelled with the Holy Ghost.

This is precisely what I think is the correct Biblical meaning of 'regeneration' (used only twice in the NT). One that is a new creature of the new covenant is regenerate. BUT, only the children of the heavenly Zion [born from above] can be brought into 'the regeneration', i.e., the 'building again' of the house of David, the restoration of all things.

 

[kyredneck]

the order of salvation from Sproul in post #2. He has the gospel call preceding regeneration, as I do.

....seems I remember there were some of his students that had become frustrated at his doublespeak[?] on some matters.

 

[AdamL]

As to Cornelius, lots of people do "good works" but they are still lost. And the Ethiopian Eunuch was searching for truth because he was being "drawn" by the Holy Ghost. A person is not "regenerated" until he becomes a "new creature". Regeneration happens the moment one believes on the Lord Jesus and is instantly indwelled with the Holy Ghost.

I would agree with your statement. I do not believe you can receive new life and be made a new creature without belief in the Lord Jesus Christ.

I am bewildered by the statements that a person could be born from above or regenerated without the Gospel. And also that regeneration is not salvation.