When Did the Church Start?

[Brother Bob]

When He came and died He not only was but is.
When He said "upon this rock I build my Church" did He include those of faith that were under the Law?

 

[mnw]

When He came and died He not only was but is.

Sorry, I don't understand what your point is there.

When He said "upon this rock I build my Church" did He include those of faith that were under the Law?

No, those of faith under the law were just that. Nothing more and nothing less.

 

[Brother Bob]

Then why did He brake down the middle wall of partition between the Jew and the Greek, where we all became as one.

Scripture says "He came unto His own" This was before He talked with Peter so was He not coming to Israel?

When He said "Go ye to the lost sheep of the house of Israel, was that not them under the Law"?

If He came unto His own and He is the head of the Church then why is Israel not part of it?

 

[Brother Bob]

When Christ said He would build His church He spoke in an undeniably future tense. If the church was already in existance why would He not have said: "I will continue to build my church" or "I am building my church"?

But, we incorporate into the Church many of the Scriptures and Commands under the Law but Christ when building His church incorporated those commands but not "His own"?

I am just asking questions, not saying I have all the answers.

I would like to ask something I have always thought. When Jesus said "upon this Rock" I build my church, was he talking about Peter or Himself as the Rock?

 

[mnw]

Then why did He brake down the middle wall of partition between the Jew and the Greek, where we all became as one.

Scripture says "He came unto His own" This was before He talked with Peter so was He not coming to Israel?

When He said "Go ye to the lost sheep of the house of Israel, was that not them under the Law"?

If He came unto His own and He is the head of the Church then why is Israel not part of it?

In the Old Testmant God dealt with national Israel. Gentiles were ALMOST exclusively excluded from God's purposes in the OT. They could be saved, but Israel were His chosen people. With the beginning of the church this division was removed and Jew/Gentile/Rich/poor were all made one.

Note this happened in the church. Now if the church was in the OT why were they not one then?

Yes, Christ came unto His own and His own received Him not. Initially Christ sent the Apostles only to the Jewish people, but at their rejection He sent them to all places.

Inidividuals within Israel can be a part of the church, but that is not to say that Israel and the church are the same thing.

In Ephesians Christ became the head of the church AFTER the resurrection. TO me that is a clear signal that the church did ot exist until after the resurrection.

I think we're on at the same time.

I believe Christ spoke equally of the statement Peter had made which was reference to Jesus Himself being that Rock upon which the Church would be built.

It has to be remembered that similarities do not make two things the same.

Pigs and humans have similar DNA but we are not the same. It just shows that pigs and humans had the same creator. The church and Israel have similarities, but also some great differences. We are not the same, we just resemble one another as we have the same Creator.

 

[mnw]

Thanks for posting Bro Bob. I am enjoying the discussion.

 

[Brother Bob]

You may be right, but if He came to His own, He must of been the head of them. Also, He sent His apostles first to His own and some did receive Him and He gave them power to become the sons of God, not after His death.

Do you believe that Christ's blood covered them under the Law that had "faith"?

 

[LeBuick]

Ah, the old Church vs NT Church discussion.

Isn't the Church defined as a group of baptised believers?

I give in to this duscussion that there was a Church prior to Abram. It was after the priesthood of Melchisedec and was the same saving institution by which Noah was saved. Christ Priesthood was after the order of Melchisedec.

The Jews were under the Levitical or Aaron priesthood where yes, they looked forward to Christ but their salvation was based on the Law. I don't believe they were the Church.

This leaves the question did the blood of Christ reach back from the cross and save them who died in the faith?

 

[LeBuick]

I would like to ask something I have always thought. When Jesus said "upon this Rock" I build my church, was he talking about Peter or Himself as the Rock?

Is Christ the rock or is the confession the rock?

Rom 10:9

 

[Brother Bob]

This leaves the question did the blood of Christ reach back from the cross and save them who died in the faith?

Well...............

Romans 10:9
Is what it takes to get you on the rock. "He raised my feet from the mire of the clay and placed them upon a Rock".
The Rock is Christ. IMO

Isn't the Church defined as a group of baptised believers?

Dosen't the Scripture say they were all baptized in the clouds?

1Cr 10:2And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

 

[LeBuick]

In the Old Testmant God dealt with national Israel. Gentiles were ALMOST exclusively excluded from God's purposes in the OT. They could be saved, but Israel were His chosen people. With the beginning of the church this division was removed and Jew/Gentile/Rich/poor were all made one..

Since the time of their deliverance from Egypt and even through the wildreness of sin the Jews were never a pure race of people. Remember Ruth?

 

[LeBuick]

Well...............

Romans 10:9
Is what it takes to get you on the rock. "He raised my feet from the mire of the clay and placed them upon a Rock".
The Rock is Christ. IMO


Dosen't the Scripture say they were all baptized in the clouds?

Unto Moses

2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

this gave them divine favor, but salvation.

Service is about to start but I'm still praying on did the blood reach back. I don't have any afternoon services today which is good, I have some things on this topic of the blood reaching back that I want to ask.

 

[Brother Bob]

Well LeBuick;
Do you believe they were covered by the blood of Christ?

Divine favor, I wonder what that is? You think it might be the promise of the Messiah.

Romans, chapter 7

"4": Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

Do you think this means when He brought those under the Law into the Grace?

Also, who is the "bride"?

 

[LeBuick]

I was actually going a different direction.

As for their salvation, there are two main catagories of Jews. Those that died in the faith looking forward and those that existed after Christ. If you blanket statement all who died looking forward as being saved then all current Jews will also be saved at the second coming. I leave that decision to God because the covenant was between he and the Jews. I will say this;

Jeremiah 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

There were many covenants between God and the Jews including this one where he promised to forgive their iniquities and remember their sin no more. A covenant is between two parties and both parties must keep to the conditions of the covenant is null and void. Israel never kept their part of any of the covenants to include this one which brings us to the Church.

This particular covenant had a loophole in verse 27...

Jeremiah 31:27 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will sow the house of Israel and the house of Judah with the seed of man, and with the seed of beast.

Verse 27 is saying Christ or the Mesiah would come and join Israel, Judah, the seed of man and the seed of the best (what ever that is). God kept his word and sent the Mesiah but he was rejected. Does this still bind the covenant?

I don't consider the Jews period as a Church because the relationship was with the first part of the God head. The Church was built and hinges on the second part of the God head. It is he who makes us righteous, is the reason are iniquities are forgiven and he doesn't remember our sins.

Had Israel accepted Christ I would say yes, the Church would have reached back and included Israel. Because they rejected the savior and broke all the covenants?????? <scratches head>

Do you recall the joke ending with I sent a boat, a helicopter etc...

 

[Brother Bob]

Verse 27 is saying Christ or the Mesiah would come and join Israel, Judah, the seed of man and the seed of the best (what ever that is). God kept his word and sent the Mesiah but he was rejected. Does this still bind the covenant?

He was not rejected by all. There was that remnant that believed Him.


Romans, chapter 11



"1": I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

"2": God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,

"3": Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.

"4": But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

"5": Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

"6": And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Seems to me it was by works at one time.

If the elect is not the church boy the Calvinist are in trouble.

Job:19
25": For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:

"26": And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:

"27": Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.

 

[Brother Bob]

Jonah, chapter 2



"1": Then Jonah prayed unto the LORD his God out of the fish's belly,

"2": And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.

"3": For thou hadst cast me into the deep, in the midst of the seas; and the floods compassed me about: all thy billows and thy waves passed over me.

"4": Then I said, I am cast out of thy sight; yet I will look again toward thy holy temple.

"5": The waters compassed me about, even to the soul: the depth closed me round about, the weeds were wrapped about my head.

"6": I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God.

"7": When my soul fainted within me I remembered the LORD: and my prayer came in unto thee, into thine holy temple.

"8": They that observe lying vanities forsake their own mercy.

"9": But I will sacrifice unto thee with the voice of thanksgiving; I will pay that that I have vowed. Salvation is of the LORD.

"10": And the LORD spake unto the fish, and it vomited out Jonah upon the dry land.

1. They had to have faith. So do we!

2. They had to be circumcised. So do we!

3. They had to offer a sacrifice. So do we!

We are no different than they were and Christ has always been around it is just that He came in the flesh in the last days. If Salvation is only in the Lord, then they too received the blood. Those souls under the altar of God had not the robes but something happened and God gave it to them. The scriptures will support that the white robes come from the blood of the Lamb.

I believe the Rock they smote was Christ. I believe the cloud that led them through the wilderness was Christ, I believe that "wisdom hath already built her house" is Christ.

Did God "foreknow" who the believers are?

 

[LeBuick]

He was not rejected by all. There was that remnant that believed Him.

I gladlystand corrected but this remnant is saved via the front door of salvation.

Job:19
25": For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:

"26": And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:

"27": Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.

Isn't the common acceptance that Job was pre Israel? If so then he was from the Priesthood of Melchisedec.

 

[LeBuick]

"9": But I will sacrifice unto thee with the voice of thanksgiving; I will pay that that I have vowed. Salvation is of the LORD.

Exactly why I said, "I leave that decision to God because the covenant was between he and the Jews."

1. They had to have faith. So do we!

Did those who rejected Christ have faith?

2. They had to be circumcised. So do we!

Yes, but similar to baptism, the physical was just the outward sign but was their hearts circumcised? That is the question.

3. They had to offer a sacrifice. So do we!

How sincere was their sacrifice? Were they all received on high? When you take the sick and lame animals or even eat the sacrifice when your done, God even told them you're just smoking up the place. That's more like a a big BBQ but we say it's in the name of the Lord.

We are no different than they were and Christ has always been around it is just that He came in the flesh in the last days. If Salvation is only in the Lord, then they too received the blood. Those souls under the altar of God had not the robes but something happened and God gave it to them. The scriptures will support that the white robes come from the blood of the Lamb.

I believe the Rock they smote was Christ. I believe the cloud that led them through the wilderness was Christ, I believe that "wisdom hath already built her house" is Christ.

Did God "foreknow" who the believers are?

Foreknow, yes. Not in the Calvinist sense but in the sense that he is all knowing. I believe in Christ being in the OT, this is why I know some will be saved. I just have trouble with the blanket statement that the blood went back to all and with calling them a Church. I might agree that some where part of the Church for their hearts were right with God.

 

[Brother Bob]

Its a good question LeBuick. I for one believe there has always been a church and have preached it for years. Don't you think it odd no Calvinist on this thread?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother Bob
"9": But I will sacrifice unto thee with the voice of thanksgiving; I will pay that that I have vowed. Salvation is of the LORD.


Exactly why I said, "I leave that decision to God because the covenant was between he and the Jews."
(Yes, but they were His before we were, so we have nothing to boast of)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother Bob
1. They had to have faith. So do we!


Did those who rejected Christ have faith?

(No, Cain didn't have the faith and his offering was rejected).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother Bob
2. They had to be circumcised. So do we!


Yes, but similar to baptism, the physical was just the outward sign but was their hearts circumcised? That is the question.

(The Law was a shadow of things to come, not the real thing. Its the real thing today of the heart but it was what God required then.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother Bob
3. They had to offer a sacrifice. So do we!


How sincere was their sacrifice? Were they all received on high? When you take the sick and lame animals or even eat the sacrifice when your done, God even told them you're just smoking up the place. That's more like a a big BBQ but we say it's in the name of the Lord.
(Not as first, it was sweet to the Lord when they offered the best, had to be some still offering the best for there again was the remnant. You see John the Baptist came to make ready a PREPARED PEOPLE, not to prepare them)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother Bob
We are no different than they were and Christ has always been around it is just that He came in the flesh in the last days. If Salvation is only in the Lord, then they too received the blood. Those souls under the altar of God had not the robes but something happened and God gave it to them. The scriptures will support that the white robes come from the blood of the Lamb.

I believe the Rock they smote was Christ. I believe the cloud that led them through the wilderness was Christ, I believe that "wisdom hath already built her house" is Christ.

Did God "foreknow" who the believers are?


Foreknow, yes. Not in the Calvinist sense but in the sense that he is all knowing. I believe in Christ being in the OT, this is why I know some will be saved. I just have trouble with the blanket statement that the blood went back to all and with calling them a Church. I might agree that some where part of the Church for their hearts were right with God.
(That is the only ones I am talking about, at one time only 8 souls.)
__________________
Forgive the highlight.

 

[LeBuick]

Its a good question LeBuick. I for one believe there has always been a church and have preached it for years. Don't you think it odd no Calvinist on this thread?

Naw, not strange to me. Their still trying to get a sneak peak at the list.