When Did the Church Start?

[Tom Butler]

I have made this argument in other threads, so here goes again:

What did the new church have on the day of Pentecost that it didn't already have before then?

It had a Head--The Lord Jesus
It had an officer--Judas the treasurer
It had the ordinances--baptism from the beginning and eventually the Lord's Supper.
It had a commission to preach, make disciples, baptize, and teach.
It had a congregational business meeting to choose Matthias as Judas' replacement.
And it was visible.

So my vote is for the earthly ministry of Jesus as the time of the founding of the organization known as a church.

 

[LeBuick]

What did the new church have on the day of Pentecost that it didn't already have before then?

For starters, the comforter or the Holy Spirit. How about the shed blood of Christ to wash away sin? How about the substitutionary death of their Lord and Savior?

 

[Allan]

Israel IS NOT the Church, and the Church IS NOT Israel.
Otherwise we would have no need of a NEW Covenant for the Old could be fulfilled and we would all be partakers. The Fact there is a NEW Covenant shows there is a new group being spoken and promised to.

Though in all respect this isn't about whether the Church is simple continous Israel but WHEN did it begin.

That is settled with the words of Jesus:

...Upon this rock (revelation of who Jesus is) I WILL (future tense - Not YET happened) build My Church and the Gates of Hell SHALL NOT (Future tense) prevail against it (agaist what? - the building -salvation- of His Church)

The Church was not yet established until after Christ rose from the dead and assended unto the Father. It was after the preaching of Pentacost that scripture states The Lord ADDED to the church daily and up until pentacost we see not church yet. Lest we forget, we also find that scripture tell us the foundation of the Christ is Christ AND the Apostles. And is not the Church the BODY of Christ. Jesus was not manifest fully until His resurrection and no one was placed into the BODY of Christ until the Spirit of God was given and also a seal. Those of Israel are of God but not the church, of the same essence but not the same entity.

Just a side note: The Disciples/Apostles didn't even TRULY believe/understand who Jesus was and what the true Messiah entailed until AFTER Christ rose from the dead and appeared unto them and spoke with them.

So according to the scriptures the Church started On the Day of Pentacost with those believers who were actaully awaiting the Holy Spirit that Christ told them would Come to them and that they should recieve Power AFTER the Holy Ghost has come upon them... It is only after this that scripture states there was adding and multiplying to the body.

 

[Brother Bob]

Rom 11:26And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

(Who was Deliverer?) and who was Jacob?

Who is the Bride of the Lamb and does it include Israel?
Does it include the "elect"? Is the "elect" not part of the Church?

Romans 11:
"15": For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

"16": For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

"17": And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

"18": Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

"19": Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. (Graffed into what?)

"20": Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

"21": For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

"22": Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

"23": And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

"24": For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

(Be graffed into what, their own olive tree, well what is the olive tree that we as wild olive branches were grafted in too.?)

 

[Brother Bob]

Acts 2:
21: And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
22: Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
23: Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
24: Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
25: For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:
26: Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:

(Is David not part of the Church also?) I mean it was His throne the Lord came to sit upon.

Gal 3:
7: Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8: And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
9: So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
10: For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
11: But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12: And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
13: Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

Israel IS NOT the Church, and the Church IS NOT Israel.
Otherwise we would have no need of a NEW Covenant for the Old could be fulfilled and we would all be partakers. The Fact there is a NEW Covenant shows there is a new group being spoken and promised to.

14: That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. (Still same promise!)

Israel and the Church are separate but yet they are one. If not so then we need to quit preaching what was written to Israel from the pulpit of today. Jesus broke down the "middle wall of partition between the Jew and the Greek" that we are no longer twain.

(Either Jesus died for the sin of the whole World or He didn't).

Romans, chapter 5

"12": Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:


Chapter 3
"23": For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.

John, chapter 1
"29": The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

 

[Tom Butler]

Tom Butler had asked, what did they have on the day of Pentecost that they didn't already have before that?

For starters, the comforter or the Holy Spirit. How about the shed blood of Christ to wash away sin? How about the substitutionary death of their Lord and Savior?

In a way, they did have the Holy Spirit. John 20:22 Jesus told his followers "receive ye the Holy Spirit." I'm not smart enough to say how this is different from the HS in Acts 2, but the disciples already had Him.

Before Pentecost they had the shed blood and the resurrected Christ, as well as the substitutionary atonement. They also had an ascended Christ, sitting at the right hand of the Father, ever interceding for his own.

 

[Jarthur001]

Israel IS NOT the Church, and the Church IS NOT Israel.
Otherwise we would have no need of a NEW Covenant for the Old could be fulfilled and we would all be partakers. The Fact there is a NEW Covenant shows there is a new group being spoken and promised to.

Though in all respect this isn't about whether the Church is simple continous Israel but WHEN did it begin.

That is settled with the words of Jesus:

...Upon this rock (revelation of who Jesus is) I WILL (future tense - Not YET happened) build My Church and the Gates of Hell SHALL NOT (Future tense) prevail against it (agaist what? - the building -salvation- of His Church)

The Church was not yet established until after Christ rose from the dead and assended unto the Father. It was after the preaching of Pentacost that scripture states The Lord ADDED to the church daily and up until pentacost we see not church yet. Lest we forget, we also find that scripture tell us the foundation of the Christ is Christ AND the Apostles. And is not the Church the BODY of Christ. Jesus was not manifest fully until His resurrection and no one was placed into the BODY of Christ until the Spirit of God was given and also a seal. Those of Israel are of God but not the church, of the same essence but not the same entity.

Just a side note: The Disciples/Apostles didn't even TRULY believe/understand who Jesus was and what the true Messiah entailed until AFTER Christ rose from the dead and appeared unto them and spoke with them.

So according to the scriptures the Church started On the Day of Pentacost with those believers who were actaully awaiting the Holy Spirit that Christ told them would Come to them and that they should recieve Power AFTER the Holy Ghost has come upon them... It is only after this that scripture states there was adding and multiplying to the body.

Right you are...

 

[Amy.G]

Tom Butler had asked, what did they have on the day of Pentecost that they didn't already have before that?

Power.
Acts 1:8 But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.

 

[Tom Butler]

Power.
Acts 1:8 But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.

So, on the day of Pentecost, the HS came upon the disciples and empowered them. Agreed.

But they already had the HS in John 20:22. Where Jesus told them to "receive the Holy Spirit." So it was not a lack of the HS before Pentecost, but a lack of empowering from the HS.

Thanks for your help.

 

[EdSutton]

So, on the day of Pentecost, the HS came upon the disciples and empowered them. Agreed.

But they already had the HS in John 20:22. Where Jesus told them to "receive the Holy Spirit." So it was not a lack of the HS before Pentecost, but a lack of empowering from the HS.

Thanks for your help.

Whether or not the church started when Jesus said "Receive the Holy Spirit!", is I guess, debatable, as to whether this was future or right then. What is not debatable is that in Matt. 16, the church is referred to in the future tense, "...I will buld My church," and by Acts. 2:47, the Lord was adding saved individuals to her. So the 'Church start' was between these two events.

"BTW, the church is a 'she', not an 'it', for another post by someone." - Language Cop

Ed

 

[FundamentalBaptist02]

I believe the Church started at Pentecost.

 

[Tom Butler]

Hello Ed,
I was unclear. I did not intend to leave the impression that the church began when Jesus said "receive ye the Holy Spirit." Only that the disciples were given the HS before Pentecost.

My own take is that when Jesus completed his calling of the twelve, the church began. They were the material of the first assembly.

I also agree that Matt 16:18 refers to building the church as future. It also suggests strongly that it was already inexistence.

And Jesus did build his church during his ministry, assembling not only disciples, but also adding the Lord's Supper, and of course, his own death, burial and resurrection. His last earthly act was to define the mission for them, and to free them from any geographical and ethnic limits to the gospel.

Before Pentecost the 120 had a business meeting to choose a successor to Judas. That's why I believe the assembly, now located in Jerusalem, to which the saved added, existed before Pentecost.

 

[thjplgvp]

I have made this argument in other threads, so here goes again:

What did the new church have on the day of Pentecost that it didn't already have before then?

It had a Head--The Lord Jesus
It had an officer--Judas the treasurer
It had the ordinances--baptism from the beginning and eventually the Lord's Supper.
It had a commission to preach, make disciples, baptize, and teach.
It had a congregational business meeting to choose Matthias as Judas' replacement.
And it was visible.

So my vote is for the earthly ministry of Jesus as the time of the founding of the organization known as a church.

Tom I agree with you 100% but would add one other point. If there was no church prior to Pentecost then who was Matthew 18:17 addressed to? "And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican."

Thjplgvp

 

[Brother Bob]

So, where does this leave the Calvinist and the "elect"?

 

[thjplgvp]

Brother Bob,

I am not a Calvinist fan and am not really concerned with where this leaves them.

thjplgvp

 

[LeBuick]

So, on the day of Pentecost, the HS came upon the disciples and empowered them. Agreed.

But they already had the HS in John 20:22. Where Jesus told them to "receive the Holy Spirit." So it was not a lack of the HS before Pentecost, but a lack of empowering from the HS.

Thanks for your help.

Some say John 20:22 was Jesus breathing into them the breath of eternal life like Adam in the garden along with the power to "bind" and "loose" (v23) via preaching. (Also Mt 16:19 and 18:18)

Don't forget, Jesus had already told us;

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

The Holy Spirit was sent by Christ so was not here while he was here.

 

[Jarthur001]

So, where does this leave the Calvinist and the "elect"?

What does Calvinism have to do with it?

 

[Brother Bob]

At least answer this one fellows!

Acts 2:
21: And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
22: Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
23: Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
24: Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
25: For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:
26: Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:

(Is David not part of the Church also?) I mean it was His throne the Lord came to sit upon.

 

[Amy.G]

At least answer this one fellows!

Acts 2:
21: And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
22: Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
23: Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
24: Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
25: For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:
26: Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:

(Is David not part of the Church also?) I mean it was His throne the Lord came to sit upon.

Are you saying the church began under the old covenant?

 

[mnw]

You may be right, but if He came to His own, He must of been the head of them. Also, He sent His apostles first to His own and some did receive Him and He gave them power to become the sons of God, not after His death.

Do you believe that Christ's blood covered them under the Law that had "faith"?

But Ephesians clearly states Christ did not become the Head of the Church until after the resurrection. I don't see any way around that point.