When Did the Church Start?

[Brother Bob]

Allan: Bob, there is not problem in understanding the blood of Christ is upon both the OT saints and NT saints. They ARE one people IN Christ that being the Children of God through and by 'Faith'. The white robes are not symbolic of the Church brother but the very righteousness of Christ Himself upon us that there is no more stain through Him.

Bob: The white robes are the blood of Christ Himself having washed them (robes) and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Allan: But here is a question for you:
Why did Christ have to offer up a "New" Covenant if all we (being all one people in ALL things both of Promise and Being) could still be covered by the Old to the same fulness of salvation and promises offered therein??

Bob: Because God found fault with the first but it was no surprise to Him for the Lamb stood slain from the foundation of the world. The "Old" or the "Law Covenant" was not the real thing but a shadow of things to come. When they offered the blood of animals it only stayed their sins from year to year and was just a "shadow" of the real thing which is "Jesus’s Blood".
The "High Priest" was not the real thing but only a shadow of "Jesus", Who is our real High Priest.
The "Temple" was not the real thing but only a shadow of "Jesus" who is our real Temple.
When the blood was shed it flowed back to cover them who had died under the Law. The souls under the altar of God received their "white robes" which came when Jesus died for that is where the "white robes came from".

Allan: And Peter when he stated this in Acts 11:
15And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning. 16Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

Bob: Matthew, chapter 28
"19": Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.

Bob: So they were able to give others the Holy Ghost but did not have it themselves? When Jesus was Baptized the Holy Spirit came down from Heaven and abode upon Him in the bodily shape of a dove. Jesus had all the power the Holy Ghost had or has, for all power was given unto Him, both in Heaven and on Earth.

Allen: The two covenants are key. We are the same people, as in people of faith. We we are distinct from each other in the promises given unto us and work God has called us to as Israel and as the Church.

Bob: The First could not give eternal life without the coming of the Messiah and the shedding of His blood for sin "once and for all". The died waiting on the promise of which when Jesus died and shed His blood He fulfilled. Jesus died for the "whole world" which included them also. You want to use all the Scriptures of the First but not include the promise in the second. If we been born again, we are the seed of Abraham and indeed have the promise made to his seed as was made to Israel also.

If the First could of given eternal life there would of been no need for Jesus too die.
Jesus died for two reasons
1. Fulfill His promise to Israel that the Messiah would come. That is why He sent His Apostles to Israel first and then to the whole world to preach the very same message, "repent ye for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand".

2. Break down the middle wall of partition between the Jew and the Greek where they were no longer twain but became as one people and all sit at the same table.

There is much to be said but I have proved by scripture that there was a church under the Law, before the Law and that Jesus was there under the Law and before the Law. Again, when Jesus said "upon this Rock, I will build my church" He was talking about the Grace Church and did not wait until Pentecost to start build but He said I came to do the will of my Father and did it while He was on earth. Set Baptism in the church, set sacrament in the church, set His Gospel in the church right then and not wait until later. When He said "I build" He was building right then.

The day of Pentecost was when " I will pour my Spirit out on ALL flesh". I believe there was 3000 souls saved that day.

 

[Brother Bob]

All before Damascus Road could not possibly have known what God had hidden, i.e. that the "uncircumcised" would now be justified through faith of Jesus Christ being admitted to His "Body Church". What we also now know, and those then became aware, is the "circumcised" can be saved just like we "uncircumcised". Witness Peter in Acts 15:11, "But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they."

It took faith for them for they did not see it and neither have we so it takes faith for us also.

My opinion is not worth two (2) cents, and neither is yours. You understand the interpretation of the Holy Spirit regarding the "church in the wilderness".

My opinion means a lot to me for I spent a many of years studying and praying and meditating to get what I think the scriptures mean.

Allen: You agree with a lot of what I believe in but the dispensationalist keep us from completely agreeing I guess. I don't know, I do the best I can and I am sure you do too. I know we completely disagree about "end times" and that reverts all the way back to this part too.

Also, don't you think by now the Gentile Nation has been brought in to the promise. I am talking about the Nation of the Gentiles.

 

[Allan]

:laugh: Brother Bob, we actually agree on the end times it is the mechanics of 'when' they come into opperation. We both believe in the rapture, the Great White Throne judgment of Sinners, the Second Coming of Christ, the Wrath of God poured out upon the world.

As to the Nation of the Gentiles? I never heard of that. It is known as the time of the Gentiles and that will not be completed until the rapture OR the beginning of the Great Tribulation (if you hold to a pre or mid view). If it is a post Trib view then it will be at the end of the Tribulation and pouring out of Gods wrath upon the World.

We do not differ brother on what is a Know fact (that I can think of) just those things that are yet to be known or those things known only in the mind of God Himself. :smilewinkgrin:

 

[Brother Bob]

Very Good Allan, God Bless and I did mean the Gentile as a people.

Act 28:28Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and [that] they will hear it.

 

[ituttut]

All before Damascus Road could not possibly have known what God had hidden, i.e. that the "uncircumcised" would now be justified through faith of Jesus Christ being admitted to His "Body Church". What we also now know, and those then became aware, is the "circumcised" can be saved just like we "uncircumcised". Witness Peter in Acts 15:11, "But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they."

It took faith for them for they did not see it and neither have we so it takes faith for us also.

Yes agree, we are all saved, but they are justified differently. The "gospels" are not the same.

Quote:
My opinion is not worth two (2) cents, and neither is yours. You understand the interpretation of the Holy Spirit regarding the "church in the wilderness".

My opinion means a lot to me for I spent a many of years studying and praying and meditating to get what I think the scriptures mean.

My opinion means a lot to me also, but not when it comes to His Word. My opinion could very well be wrong. His Word is interpreted for us, removing and should remove any opinion we have that is our own.

I know you are saved for I know you believe in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ for your salvation. All I'm saying is I am in the "Body Church" as I believe the gospel of Paul, and am justified through faith. That is not my opinion, but what Christ from heaven revealed to Paul.

 

[Tom Butler]

ittutt,

What is the "body church" as opposed to other kinds?

 

[jne1611]

ittutt,

What is the "body church" as opposed to other kinds?

Good Question. That, I guess has been my question as well.

 

[Brother Bob]

As far as I am concerned the "Body Church" is when the blood covers everyone which is the Body of Christ. They looked forward and we look backward but in the end, it all ended up in Christ.

 

[Tom Butler]

I think I can make the case that the church where I belong is the Body Church.

I Cor 12:27, Paul wrote to the congregation at Corinth "You are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

He could just have well written to the members of East Baptist Church in Paducah, Kentucky--"You are the body Christ."

We get a little bit more light from the v 29 which follows. "God has set some in the church (Greek, assembly) first apostles, second prophets..."

The body is the assembly, made up of particular believers.

 

[LeBuick]

I sure am glad someone whose opinion is respected on BB agreed with me finally that there was a Church under the Law. Of course they did not have the blood of Jesus Christ but were looking forward to the coming of the Messiah. They worshipped "by faith" and we "through faith. Jesus did appear in many forms in the OT such as the following and also as "Wisdom, Rock" and many other ways. Also, stood slain from the foundation of the World. You may not agree with this but I also believe He was and is the "Tree of Life" but that is another thread..

This post has been stewing in my mind since I read it. Today while preaching it dawned on me why, yes they were a Church. The question is were they part of the Church?

There are many Churches but unfortunately not all of them are Christ. A Church is simply an assembly or group of people with a common belief. The Church or Christ Church is a group of believers who share a single belief being bound by the Holy Spirit to partake in One Lord, one faith, one baptism.

This clicked when I was dealing with the next verse for some reason or another when the below question came to me Bro Bob.

38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:
39 To whom our fathers would not obey, but thrust him from them, and in their hearts turned back again into Egypt,

So yes, Stephen said they were a Church but in v39 he says they would not obey, lost faith and wanted to return themselves to the slavery and idolatry which they previously had in Egypt.

Would The Church or Christ Church want to return to a life of Idolatry?
Would Jesus' blood reach back for those who strayed and did not return?

I don't doubt there were saved Jews who endured in their forward looking faith and were counted worthy when the blood of Jesus began to flow from Calvery. If no other we are sure David, Moses and Elijah are amungst the saved. My question is more directed toward Stephen's use of the word Church in this particular verse.

 

[LeBuick]

What got my attention was the assertion that the local church and the Body of Christ are not the same. My guess is that he wanted to distinguish between the local, visible church and the universal church--the universal church being the Body of Christ.

If it were any of my post I apologize as I look back and see a lot of half thoughts I leave on this board.

In my view, the Local Church "should" all be part of the body of Christ. Unfortunately, not everyone in the Local Church is saved. This is not a judgement statement nor will I try to prove who is or who isn't, I just know that every member in every pew is not part of the body of Christ. There are some who just have nothing else to do on Sunday at 11, some are there because of Mothers or Grandma's faith while others have really picked up their cross and committed to following Jesus. It's just a sad reality.

 

[Brother Bob]

Now, we are starting to venture off into "backsliding" Israel and that was not the OP. What you are talking about is the very reason Jesus had to come but even then there were the "remnant" who did not backslide but kept all of His ordainances, precepts and Laws. I am sure you know the first people saved were not after Jesus came or there would of been 4000 years of lost generations. The Law could not finished the Job, it took Jesus coming to His own and then turning to all people. That is why it is the "body Church" for it is His body that they were and are covered and a part of. They backslide from what?

This post has been stewing in my mind since I read it. Today while preaching it dawned on me why, yes they were a Church. The question is were they part of the Church?

They were the only "church" back then but were waiting on the promise of the Messiah.

He is waiting to see what "ituttut has to say about the "body Church", he was not talking about or to you or me LeBuick but to ituttut who brought up the "body church", which is really the "Grace Church as I see it. Hope you had a nice day at church.

 

[atestring]

Regardless of when the church started i am just glad that it did!!!

 

[Brother Bob]

Regardless of when the church started i am just glad that it did!!!

Me too and that it all ended up under the "His blood".

 

[jne1611]

As far as I am concerned the "Body Church" is when the blood covers everyone which is the Body of Christ. They looked forward and we look backward but in the end, it all ended up in Christ.

Amen to that! ALL THROUGH THE BLOOD! Why, Paul even said that the old sacrifices could never take away sins, so the blood of Christ had to be their sufficiency as well as ours! No one under the old covenant kept the whole law, so how in the world could they have been justified by it?

 

[Tom Butler]

In my view, the Local Church "should" all be part of the body of Christ. Unfortunately, not everyone in the Local Church is saved. .

I know what you're trying to say. Let me try to make the case that everyone in the local church is saved.

We Baptists, by definition, hold that a church is made up of regenerated and baptized individuals. To be sure, there are some folks on our church rolls who probably are not saved. That's why churches should be more careful about whom they admit to membership. But if they are not saved, they are there under false pretenses. Therefore their membership is invalid.

But whether my argument is valid or not, it does not change the fact that the Great Commission was given to an assembly of people, and all such assemblies which followed. And it was given before the day of Pentecost.

 

[Allan]

Ok I cheated somewhat here as I wanted to take the time and write out many of the scriptural distinctions between Israel and the Church but just have not found the time. I am posting it due to the relevence of the topic of when the chuch began and since scripture descibes it (the church) as a new man it can not be a continuation of the other. They are both branches growing out of the same tree (Christ Jesus) and therefore IN Christ as says the scriptures via Faith in Christ alone; but they are one in Christ by Faith yet they are also different entities IN Christ fulfilling different purposes. WHich is why there are two SEPERATE covenants. The first convenant was NOT inadaquate due to the Law as though it was given in relation to the Law for it was not. The Law was given about 450 years plus before the Covenant was made BY God and was to be Kept BY God. This known historically as a suzurity (I know the spelling is wrong) covenant or a covenant made by to unequal parties yet maintianed by the greater party so the covenant would not fail. (ie... a convenant made by a king to his servant). So if this first convenant was faulty in ANY sense this would make God the 'faulter' as He could not and or did not maintain His promise to this people which "HE" choose to be "HIS" on THAT DAY and forward. Though Israel broke their side of the convenant (live BY faith or better - obey the Word of the Lord as it was given) God is not slack concerning His part of the Covenant (ie... other wise we would not see propheys fulfilled Christ being born, Salvation through Him, and a promised day when the Messiah will rule This was part of the covenant made to Abraham and established in Jacob, who was known as Israel for it was through him the promised Nation to Abraham came - The 12 tribes of Israel - Jacob) Any way this is just a portion of some of my views as to why they are unique and distinct from each other. I don't particualarly know much about the church or website but what I have read through herein (about THIS aspect) goes in line with my own personal studies wherein I came to the conclusion which I currently adhere to concerning Israel and the Church.


http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/dispen/israelch.htm

Israel and
The Church

(1) Israel is a nation chosen by God and sustained by covenant promises (Deut. 7:6-9). Not all individuals in this chosen nation are saved (Rom. 9:6; 11:28).
(1-A) The Church is a called out assembly of believers who have been baptized into the body of Christ (1 Cor. 12:13). Every member of the body of Christ is saved, though there are multitudes of professing Christians who may not be saved (2 Tim. 2:19).

(2) Israel traces its origin to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (Jacob being the father of the twelve tribes).
(2-A) The Church traces its origin to the day of Pentecost (Acts 2) when believers were first placed into the body of Christ.

(3) In God’s program for Israel, His witnesses comprised a nation (Isaiah 43:10).
(3-A) In God’s program for the Church, His witnesses are among all nations (Acts 1:8).

(4) God’s program for Israel centered in Jerusalem (Matt. 23:37) and will again center in Jerusalem during the Tribulation (Matt. 24:15-20) and during the Millennium (Isa. 2:1-5).
(4-A) God’s program for His Church began in Jerusalem and extended to the uttermost parts of the earth (Luke 24:47; Acts 1:8). The Church is identified with the risen Christ, not with any earthly city.

(5) The hope and expectancy of Israel was earthly, centering in the establishment of the Kingdom of the Messiah foretold by the prophets (Jer. 23:5-8; Isa. 2:1-5; 11:1-16).
(5-A) The hope and expectancy of the Church is heavenly, centering in the glorious appearing of Christ to take His people to heaven (John 14:1-3; Phil. 3:20-21; Col. 3:1-4; 1 Thess. 4:13-18).

(6) God’s purpose and program for Israel was revealed in the Old Testament Scriptures.
(6-A) God’s purpose and program for the Church was not revealed in the Old Testament, but was revealed by the New Testament apostles and prophets (Eph. 3:5).

(7) Israel’s history which is in view in Daniel 9:24 (the 70 weeks or 490 years) involved animal sacrifices. These years will include the tribulation. Israel’s millennial history will involve the same (Ezek. 43:27).
(7-A) The Church’s history does not involve animal sacrifices. Messiah’s sacrifice is commemorated by means of the Lord’s Table.

(8) Israel’s history which is in view in Daniel 9:24 (the 490 years including also the Tribulation) involves a temple in Jerusalem. The same will be true in the Millennium (Ezek. chapters 40-48).
(8-A) During most of the Church age there is no Jewish temple in Jerusalem. In this age God manifests His glory in His believers, both individually and collectively, designating them as His temple (1 Cor. 3:16; 6:19-20; Eph. 2:21-22). This is accomplished by the indwelling ministry of God the Holy Spirit.

(9) Israel’s history which is in view in Daniel 9:24 (the 490 years) involves a priesthood limited to the sons of Aaron, and excluding most Israelites. The same applies to the Millennium when Zadokian priests (also sons of Aaron) will serve in the temple (Ezek. 40:46; 43:19; 44:15).
(9-A) During the Church age every true believer is a priest and able to offer spiritual sacrifices to the Lord (Heb. 13:15; 1 Pet. 2:9; Rev. 1:6). Whereas Israel had a priesthood, the Church is a priesthood.

(10) Israel’s history which is in view in Daniel 9:24 (the 490 years) will terminate with the coming of the Messiah to the earth to establish His Kingdom reign.
(10-A) The Church’s history will end at the Rapture of the Church when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in (1 Thess. 4:13-18; Rom. 11:25).

(11) During Israel’s history (the 490 years of Daniel 9:24 which also includes the Tribulation) the ethnic makeup of the world is bipartite: Jews and Gentiles. This division of all people into Jews and Gentiles will also apply to those in the Millennial Kingdom in natural bodies.
(11-A) During the Church age from Pentecost to the Rapture the ethnic makeup of the world is tripartite: Jews, Gentiles, and the Church of God (1 Cor. 10:32), the Church being composed of saved Jews and Gentiles united together in one Body (Eph. 2:15; 3:6).

(12) During Israel’s history, from Sinai to the Millennial Kingdom (excluding the Church age), Israel’s role in the world will be characterized by PRIORITY [that is, they will have a leading role as God’s chosen people]—see Deut. 4:6-8; Isa. 43:10; Matt. 10:5-6; Zech. 8:23.
(12-A) During the Church age, Israel’s role in the world will be characterized by EQUALITY—Jew and Gentiles united together in one body to bear testimony to a risen Christ (Col. 3:11; Gal. 3:28).

(13) Male Jews were circumcised as a sign of the Abrahamic Covenant. Believing Jews were circumcised in the heart (Jer. 4:4).
(13-A) Believers of this age enjoy an internal circumcision not made with hands (Col. 2:11; Phil. 3:3). Physical circumcision is not required.

(14) Israel was under the law of Moses as a rule of life.
(14-A) The Church is under the “new creature” rule (Gal. 6:15-16). See our study: What is the Believer's Rule of Life? [MINE - is basically this from Paul: the life which I now live in the flesh I LIVE BY THE FAITH OF THE SON OF GOD

(15) Unbelieving Jews were physical children of Abraham and spiritual children of the devil (John 8:37-44).
(15-A) Every believer in Christ (every true member of the Church, whether Jew or Gentile) is a child of Abraham and a child of God (Rom. 4:11-12; Gal. 3:326-29). This statement does not mean that Church age believers are Israelites. See The Use of the Term "Israel" in the N.T. LINK IS HERE: http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/reformed/israelaf.htm

(16) Israel was to observe the Sabbath Day (Exodus 20:8). Sabbath observance will also take place in the Tribulation (Matt. 24:20) and in the Millennium (Ezek. 46:1,3).
(16-A) The Church is to be diligent and make every effort to enter into God’s rest (Heb. 4:9-11). This is a daily duty.

(17) Membership into the Jewish nation was by birth or by becoming a proselyte (a convert to Judaism).
(17-A) Membership into the Church is by the new birth accomplished by the baptizing ministry of God (1 Cor. 12:13).

(18) Believing Jews prior to Pentecost, believing Jews during the tribulation, and believing Jews during the Kingdom reign of Christ are not members of the body of Christ.
(18-A) Believing Jews and Gentiles from Pentecost to the Rapture are members of the body of Christ.

(19) Israel’s place of worship centered in Jerusalem (Dan. 6:10; John 4:20) and this will also be true in the Tribulation (Dan. 9:27) and in the Millennium (Isa. 2:1-5).
(19-A) The Church’s place of worship is “Where two or three are gathered together in My Name” (Matt. 18:20; John 4:21-24). Christ is in the midst of His Churches (Rev. 1:13, 20).

(20) Israel is likened to the wife of Jehovah, often an unfaithful wife (Isa 50, Hosea).
(20-A) The Church is the beloved Bride of Christ (2 Cor. 11:2; Rev. 19:7-8) to be one day presented blameless and spotless (Eph. 5:27).

 

[Allan]

Yes I am being extremely lazy, tonight as I am tired and at work trying to stay awake. (and yes I am permitted via permission from my Supervisor to be on here as long as I watch the monitors to make sure no one steals a turkey)

However this author (Thomas S. McCall, Th.D.) I have read many of his works and agree with much of what he says. This weblink shows a very good break down historically and scripturally of the Church and Israel being seperate. It was not concidered a main view basically till Augustine where the veiw changed in the 4 century.

http://focusonjerusalem.com/Israelandthechurch.html

I can say this however, I very seldom post websites to be viewed as I like to personally deal scripture for scripture. Therefore I'm allowed (IMO) this attempt as being lazy :tongue3:

 

[Bro. James]

My vote: during the personal ministry of the Lord Jesus Christ.
Why?

Church=ekklesia=called out for a purpose

"There was a man sent from God, his name was John"--the authorized Baptizer.

Jesus said: "come, follow me, I will make you fishers of men..."

"Jesus baptized not, but His disciples did..."

There certainly seems to be a lot of "called out for a purpose" activity during the personal ministry of Jesus--before Pentecost.

One more point: Jesus said He would send them(the Church?) another Comforter--to lead them in all Truth. He fulfilled this on Pentecost, when He immersed The Assembly in The Spirit, The Holy. There He abides, even today. Only Churches started by Jesus can make this assertion. The missing ingredient in present-day churches(?) is the indwelling of The Holy Spirit. Such "pseudo" assemblies were started by men/women, teaching for doctrine the commandments of men/women. :type:

As an example: Constantine, The Great, Emperor of Rome, married The State to The Church(?), c.325 A.D. In fact Constantine presided the Council of Nicea. This "unholy matrimony" had offspring: in the 16th century, priests, defrocked by the Holy See, started their own churches--commonly called The Reformation. The 1200 year interim(4th to 16th cent.) is also an interesting study.

Now what?:BangHead:
Who has the authority given in Mt. 16:18 and 28:20?

Choose wisely,:thumbsup:

Bro. James

 

[Allan]

No doubt Jesus had many disciples and specifically the 12 (of whom one of the Called by Jesus was of course Judas) But was it not TO this group that Jesus made the statement :

Upon this Rock (Peters Statement of who Christ IS) I WILL (future tense) build My Church and the gates of Hell SHALL NOT (future tense) prevail against it.

What shall the gate of Hell not prevail against? It is not the Church but the "BUILDING OF" the Church.

Up to this point, at least according to Jesus Himself the church has not even begun yet.

What is the Church?
1. Born-again believers DUE to the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus.
2. Holy SPirit baptized believers who are IN the Body of Christ due to this Baptism.
3. Indwelt by the Holy Spirit and born of God.
4. The Believers HAD to be GIFTED via the Holy Spirit to fulfill their God called ministry Without the above 3 this CAN NOT happen.
........No one in the OT nor during the Christs earthly ministry fits this bill, NOT ONE. Yet we find EVERYONE after Acts 2 who are believers and fit this discription.

ANother thing as well. It was not till Acts 2 that scripture records God ADDED to the Church... Yet in Christs ministry many followed Him and we even find 120 in the upper room yet it never mentions any one of them being added to the church but that at Acts 2 was the creation of the Church - the New Man and at its end we see God adding just as Christ promised.

The giving of teh Holy Spirit was the authenticator of the action, much like graduation. Those4 years did a lot but with that authenitication (diploma) it is almost worthless.