When Did the KJVO Movement Start?

[John of Japan]

Hard to put an exact date in the beginning of the current KJVO MOVEMENT, but it was well under way by 1972. I'd never heard of Dr. Wilkinson's book before I was saved in 1979, but I DO remember from when I was a boy, hearing some people say we needed a new Bible in OUR English, and others saying such a Bible would be sacrilege.( I'm age 66.)

I'm 62 now. I don't remember the movement raising any red flags in my mind until just before our first furlough in '86, at which time I thought I'd better know what was going on in case a pastor asked me about it. Not a single pastor said a word about it!

First sermon I ever heard pushing the KJVO myth was by the late Lester Roloff, on the radio, in the early 1980s. Dunno the date he first preached it, but, as he was killed in 1982, it was prolly from the mid-to-late 1970s.

Good old Lester. I don't remember him ever mentioning the subject when I was at Temple '72 to '76, and he preached there often.

Many such orgs for the KJVO myth have arisen with the advent of the internet, & many of them have since dried up.

They're still coming occasionally, such as the William Carey Bible Society, made up of refugees from the DBS from what I've heard. :smilewinkgrin:

I'd say it's safe to date the APPROXIMATE beginning of the current KJVO movement to 1970, after the publication of Which Bible? I believe that book drew attention to Ray's book, and maybe to Bible Babel. But it's clear that Dr. Fuller didn't want Dr. Wilkinson's CULT AFFILIATION to be well-known. (Dr. W. had died in 1968.)

Then we agree as to the birth of the movement.

 

[John of Japan]

And the 1881 RV never had much popularity outside Great Britain, and certainly not in the USA. But it caused Westcott & Hort to become the main whipping boys of the current KJVO myth.

Actually, to my understanding the ASV was the ERV for Americans, and it did have some popularity for awhile, with even fundamentalists quoting from it back in the day.

 

[robycop3]

I'm 62 now. I don't remember the movement raising any red flags in my mind until just before our first furlough in '86, at which time I thought I'd better know what was going on in case a pastor asked me about it. Not a single pastor said a word about it!
Good old Lester. I don't remember him ever mentioning the subject when I was at Temple '72 to '76, and he preached there often.
They're still coming occasionally, such as the William Carey Bible Society, made up of refugees from the DBS from what I've heard. :smilewinkgrin:

Then we agree as to the birth of the movement.

That's as close as I can come for any particular date of the movement's beginning, as the launch of Fuller's book and its promotion thru modern media caused quite a few people to read both Fuller's and Ray's boox. And I believe many folx saw "Dr." before Fuller's name & therefore accepted his writings without question, as well as those of Ray, who was cited by Fuller.

The launching of that last 'foundation' book of Fuller's, I believe, had more to do with the founding of the current KJVO movement, and the creation of the KJVO myth, than any other single event I can think of. While there were dregs of past KJVO beta-movements dragged into that new one, the current movement has supplanted all the older ones. The old ones were wrong, and so is the current one.

The new KJVOs did NOT know that Ray copied a large part of Wilkinson's book verbatim, without acknowledging Wilkinson whatsoever, and while Fuller acknowledged Wilkinson, he was careful to avoid mentioning Wilkinson's CULT AFFILIATION.

So we see the KJVO movement founding was cultic and dishonest. With such a beginning, how can any Christian believe it came from GOD ? ?

 

[John of Japan]

That's as close as I can come for any particular date of the movement's beginning, as the launch of Fuller's book and its promotion thru modern media caused quite a few people to read both Fuller's and Ray's boox. And I believe many folx saw "Dr." before Fuller's name & therefore accepted his writings without question, as well as those of Ray, who was cited by Fuller.

The launching of that last 'foundation' book of Fuller's, I believe, had more to do with the founding of the current KJVO movement, and the creation of the KJVO myth, than any other single event I can think of. While there were dregs of past KJVO beta-movements dragged into that new one, the current movement has supplanted all the older ones. The old ones were wrong, and so is the current one.

The new KJVOs did NOT know that Ray copied a large part of Wilkinson's book verbatim, without acknowledging Wilkinson whatsoever, and while Fuller acknowledged Wilkinson, he was careful to avoid mentioning Wilkinson's CULT AFFILIATION.

So we see the KJVO movement founding was cultic and dishonest. With such a beginning, how can any Christian believe it came from GOD ? ?

Personally I think it is a mistake to broad brush the entire movement. There are dishonest people in it as everywhere and those without ethics on both sides of the issue (as I have learned in personal contact). But there are also good, godly people, many pastors and friends (some who are both) who might characterize themselves as KJVO.

This thread was started as a search for historical evidence. I hope it doesn't turn into bashing by either side.

 

[John of Japan]

Speaking of historical evidence, I have Samuel Gipp's An Understandable History of the Bible. I also have Final Authority by KJVO historian Bill Grady, though the book is not a history per se. Neither of these books mention anything about a 19th century KJVO movement that I can find.

My question is, if there was an organized KJVO movement in the 19th century, why do neither of these men, ostensible historians, mention it? Seems like they would be "all over" the idea of giving historical credence to the movement! :type:

 

[TCassidy]

Actually, to my understanding the ASV was the ERV for Americans, and it did have some popularity for awhile, with even fundamentalists quoting from it back in the day.

Correct. The ASV was the ERV with some "Americanisms." And most fundamentalists referred to it as "The Rock of Biblical Honesty."

 

[prophet]

Speaking of historical evidence, I have Samuel Gipp's An Understandable History of the Bible. I also have Final Authority by KJVO historian Bill Grady, though the book is not a history per se. Neither of these books mention anything about a 19th century KJVO movement that I can find.

My question is, if there was an organized KJVO movement in the 19th century, why do neither of these men, ostensible historians, mention it? Seems like they would be "all over" the idea of giving historical credence to the movement! :type:

I don't think William Grady considers himself a part of any movement, and certainly his book wasn't about the movement.

Gipp , IMO, isn't really a credible source, to any outside of the movement. I'm not so sure that he would know about it, if there was.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

A definitive answer to your question is problematical. Regretfully, there was no Tun Tavern (birthplace of the USMC) event to point to.

 

[John of Japan]

I don't think William Grady considers himself a part of any movement, and certainly his book wasn't about the movement.

Gipp , IMO, isn't really a credible source, to any outside of the movement. I'm not so sure that he would know about it, if there was.

I'm surprised to know you think so little of Gipp. At any rate, he's part of the movement. As for Grady, he's written two books defending the KJB and they have been endorsed by various in the movement, and he speaks on the subject around the country. Don't know why you think he's not part of the movement. And as for his books not being "about the movement," no one in the movement writes "about the movement," they write defending their position and ostensibly the KJB.

So, my point still stands, regardless of your objections.

 

[John of Japan]

A definitive answer to your question is problematical. Regretfully, there was no Tun Tavern (birthplace of the USMC) event to point to.

And no Alamo? And no Pearl Harbor?

 

[franklinmonroe]

Speaking of historical evidence, I have Samuel Gipp's An Understandable History of the Bible. ...

That book is rubbish. I got more specific here --

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=80805

 

[Squire Robertsson]

Nope, no three brothers meeting at a Cracker Barrel on a Sunday afternoon deciding to form a movement.

And no Alamo? And no Pearl Harbor?

 

[robycop3]

I don't think William Grady considers himself a part of any movement, and certainly his book wasn't about the movement.

Dr. Grady has made msny You Tube videos advocating the KJVO myth, as well as writing several boox advocating that myth. If he's not part of the movement, then neither is Gail Riplinger. Thing is, he repeats some of the claptrap from Dr. Wilkinson's book, which is the "foundation stone" of the current KJVO myth.

Gipp , IMO, isn't really a credible source, to any outside of the movement. I'm not so sure that he would know about it, if there was.

For a man with a doctorate. Dr. Gipp shows quite a lack of research in many parts of his "Wrong Answer Book". One example is his trying to attribute the "Easter" goof in the KJV to the supposed worship of "Astarte", etc. to Herod, a totally-false supposition. Like other KJVOs, Dr. Gipp must be inventive in creating excuses to attempt to support the KJVO myth.

And while there's no "official" KJVO org behind the movement, there are enough KJVOs spread around to create dissent in many congregations. KJVO is one of Satan's success stories, as it has Christians at loggerheads with each other, and casts doubt on many perfectly-valid English Bible translations.

Because of this, part of our work as Christians is to work against the KJVO myth and other false doctrines. Unfortunately, it seems a larger percentage Baptists subscribe to KJVO than do the members of any other large, legitimate denomination. Thus, we Baptists have double duty to try to cleanse our congregations of this pack of lies.

And, back to the OP...as I told John of Japan, it seems the KJVO movement received a large boost from BAPTIST Dr. D. O. Fuller's 1970 book, Which Bible? and again, I believe many people said to themselves, "Fuller is a DOCTOR; therefore he knows what he's talking about", thus causing a number of people to believe the KJVO myth without bothering to check out the VERACITY of its salient points, its overall falsehood, its dishonest, man-made beginnings, and its total lack of SCRIPTURAL SUPPORT.

 

[John of Japan]

That book is rubbish. I got more specific here --

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=80805

As prophet said, Gipp is not respected outside of the movement.:type:

 

[John of Japan]

Correct. The ASV was the ERV with some "Americanisms." And most fundamentalists referred to it as "The Rock of Biblical Honesty."

Thanks, Dr. Cassidy.

 

[Bob Alkire]

Actually, to my understanding the ASV was the ERV for Americans, and it did have some popularity for awhile, with even fundamentalists quoting from it back in the day.

I still use the ASV 1901 some today. Yes it was used by many fundamentalists. I know Alva J. McClain, Holt and Grace Theological Seminary taught out of it for years.

 

[John of Japan]

I still use the ASV 1901 some today. Yes it was used by many fundamentalists. I know Alva J. McClain, Holt and Grace Theological Seminary taught out of it for years.

It's in a lot of software packages for free, but for the NASB you have to sell your horse to afford it. :BangHead:

 

[prophet]

I think "prophet" may be confused. The only reference I can find to the statement is found in Dr. George W. Dollar's book "History of Fundamentalism in America" where he stats in Riley's day, a group of men still existed who believed, "(1) the Bible was finished in heaven and handed down, (2) the King James Version was absolutely inerrant, and (3) its literal acceptance was alone correct." (Page nine of Riley's book as quoted by Dr. George W. Dollar in his book "History of Fundamentalism in America", Page 114).

You think, huh?

I guess I have to type the actual quote in, for you scholarly types.

I have an android phone, I dont own a p.c.
Too bad you guys can't just do your own homework.

If you can read page 901, and don't see the KJVO backlash, at the 1842 revision of the King James, then you probably struggle with 19th century English.




"Many others also talked as much at random as if they feared that the book which they hinted had come down from heaven in about its present shape, printed and bound, was now to be taken from them by force."

Hai, Tomadashi!

 

[prophet]

Excerpts concerning the state of the KJVO in the mid 1800's
Taken from Armitage's "A History of the Baptists" Vol.2: page 901.

"Most of its journals were flooded with comnumications,pro and con, sermons were preached in a number of pul pits denouncing the movement, and public meetings were held in several cities to the same end, notable amongst them one at the Oliver Street Church, in New York, April 4th, 1850."

The movement being denounced here, as usual, is the movement to revise the King James.

"and still others full of fiery denunciation of Cone, Wyckoif and Colgate, and their sympathizers ; as if they were guilty of the basest crime for desiring as good a version for the English speaking people as the Baptists were giving to the East Indians."

Tell me this isn't KJVO.

You can act like it isn't, but nothing is new under the Sun.
This battle started in 1836 in the American Bible societies.

There were similar battles in England 200 years before that.

1970 was just another wave....

 

[TCassidy]

What was actually written was "Men of the highest ability took sides and published their views, some demanding revision at once, others admitting its necessity but hesitating as to what might be the proper method to procure it, and still others full of fiery denunciation of Cone, Wyckoff and Colgate, and their sympathizers; as if they were guilty of the basest crime for desiring as good a version for the English speaking people as the Baptists were giving to the East Indians. Many others also talked as much at random as if they feared that the book which they hinted had come down from heaven in about its present shape, printed and bound, was now to be taken from them by force."

A history of the Baptists: traced by their vital principles and practices from the time of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ to the year 1886 by Thomas Armitage - January 1, 1887, Bryan, Taylor - Publisher, page 901.