When does the rapture occur?

[Ed Edwards]

Can't tell which is and which isn't quoted???

From the post of Chris777:
//The Necessity of an Interval of Time between the Rapture and the Second Coming
Any scripture to back this up?//

There is no necessity of scripture here, the 'requirement' is
false. Generally the 7-year interval 'needs' to take place becase
the Bema (Judgement) Seat of Christ, the rewards ceremony for
the saved takes place in heaven during the Tribulation Period on earth.

Consider that there have to be well over 200 Million saints mentioned
in the 'a great multitude' gathered around the throne after
the pre-tribulation rapture/resurrection/transformation.
(BTW, if 'no man could number' does that mean you
might have a woman number them? )(

Rev 7:9 (KJV1611 Edition):
After this I beheld, and lo, a great multitude, which no man could nuber,
of all nations, and kindreds, and people, & tongues,
stood before the throne, & before the Lamb,
clothed with white robes, and palmes in their hands:

Say (for computation purposes there are:
200 Million REAL CHRISTIANS of the 2,000 Million nominal
Christians on the earth today out of the 6,000 Million
persons alive today.
and there are 1,000 REAL CHRISTIANS out of
the 8,286* nominal Christians out of the
34,000 Million all born 33AD-1990AD.
So were the pretribulation rapture/resurreciton/transformation
take place today, there would be (estimated) 1,200 Million
Christians at the Bema Seat of Chirst.
Say each reward recognizition takes 1 second and each
recognization is seperate from another, this will take
1,200,000,000 seconds. 1,200,000,000 seconds is
20,000,000 minutes. 20,000,000 minutes is 333,333 hours.
333,333 hours is 13888 days. 13888 days is over 38 years.
Oops, not enough time in seven years for these conditions.
I guess there need to be multiple simultaneious awards
or multiple award givers or something.
7 years just isn't enough time 'needed' for the delay.

Needless to say, I don't have "The Necessity of an Interval of Time
between the Rapture and the Second Coming" on my list of
'differences between the Pretribulation Rapture and the
Post-tribulation Second Coming of Jesus to destroy the
Antichrist and set up the Millinnial Messanic Kingdom:

----------------------------------------------
Comparing the rapture/resurrection (R) AKA: gathering
with the Second Advent (SC): when Jesus comes
to destroy the Antichrist and set up the
Millennial Messanic Kingdom AKA: Glorious Appearance.

1R. Jesus comes for His own ( given physical bodies)
(John 14:3, 1 Thess 4:17)
1SC. Jesus comes with His own (already have physical bodies) (Rev 19:14)

2R. Jesus comes in the air (1 Thes 4:17)
2SC. Jesus comes to the earth
(Zech 14:4-5, Acts 1:11)

3R. Jesus comes to claim His Bride
(1 Thess 4:16-17)
3SC. Jesus comes with His Bride
(Rev 19:6-14)

4R. end of the Gentile Age
(Matthew 24:3, 24:31-44)
4SC. end of the Tribulation Period
(Revelation 19)

5R. Tribulation period begins
5SC. Millennial Kingdom begins

6R. Saved are delivered from wrath
(1 Thes 1:10, 5:9; Rev 3:10)
6SC. Unsaved experience the wrath of God
(Rev 6:12-17)

7R. No Signs precede the Rapture
(1 Thess. 5:1-3, Matthew 24:31-44)
7SC. Signs precede the Second Coming
(Luke 21-11-28, Matthew 24:21-30)

8R. Focus: Lord and Church
(1 Thess 4:13-18)
8SC. Focus: Israel and kingdom
(Romans 11)

9R. World is deceived (2 Thess 2:3-12)
9SC. Satan is bound (Rev 20:1-2)

10R. No judgement mentioned on earth
10SC. Follows the Tribulation period
judgement and followed by the sheep/goats
judgement.

11R. Time of joy. (1Thessalonians 4:17-18)
11SC. Time of sorrow. (Matthew 24:30)

12R. relative peace and prosperity. (Lk.17:26-30).
12SC. the worst war the world has ever seen. (Mt.24:21,22).

13R. Christians are promised they will be delivered
-- from the wrath to come (1 Thes 1:10, 5:9)
13SC. Israeli are told to flee the wrath to come (Matt 3:7, Luke 3:7)

----------------------------------------------

 

[Ed Edwards]

Deacon JD: //How could there be another trump after the last trump
wouldn't that be a contradiction? Of course it would.
There is only one rapture and it takes place on the last day.//

Since the destruction (or sometimes there after) the Jews
started celebrating the Feast of Trumpets in each synagogue
where they could do so:

The blowing of three horns in this sequence
1. the first trumpet
2. the last trumpet
3. the great shofar (horn)

I don't know how many synagogues there are this year,
but at the next Feast of Trumpets there will be thousands
of trumpets blown after the LAST TRUMPET.
This has been going on for over 1,900 years.

A note to my beloved Deaf Brothers & Sisters.
The first sound you hear will be THE LAST TRUMPET.
And for you, Deaf Brother or Sister:
And the prophecy of Jesus will come true:

Luke 13:30 (KJV1611 Edition):
And behold, there are last, which shall be first;
and there are first, which shall be last.

 

[USMC71]

Deacon JD: //How could there be another trump after the last trump
wouldn't that be a contradiction? Of course it would.
There is only one rapture and it takes place on the last day.//

Since the destruction (or sometimes there after) the Jews
started celebrating the Feast of Trumpets in each synagogue
where they could do so:

The blowing of three horns in this sequence
1. the first trumpet
2. the last trumpet
3. the great shofar (horn)

I don't know how many synagogues there are this year,
but at the next Feast of Trumpets there will be thousands
of trumpets blown after the LAST TRUMPET.
This has been going on for over 1,900 years.

A note to my beloved Deaf Brothers & Sisters.
The first sound you hear will be THE LAST TRUMPET.
And for you, Deaf Brother or Sister:
And the prophecy of Jesus will come true:

Luke 13:30 (KJV1611 Edition):
And behold, there are last, which shall be first;
and there are first, which shall be last.

Excellent, Ed. Time to play Handel's Messiah now.

 

[EdSutton]

Excellent, Ed. Time to play Handel's Messiah now.

"AAAAAL- lay- lu- yuuuuuh! AAAAAL- lay - lu - yuuh! Al-le-lu-yuh! Al-le-lu-yuh! Al- LAAAY-lu-yah! AAAAALL - lay...!

Ed

 

[USMC71]

"AAAAAL- lay- lu- yuuuuuh! AAAAAL- lay - lu - yuuh! Al-le-lu-yuh! Al-le-lu-yuh! Al- LAAAY-lu-yah! AAAAALL - lay...!

Ed

You just brought me to tears. How beautimus!! Now, which horn is used in Handels Messiah?

 

[EdSutton]

You just brought me to tears. How beautimus!! Now, which horn is used in Handels Messiah?

I really do not know, but would guess it might be a trumpet, or some close relative of the same. Uh, were the tears from laughing so hard at me, since I am not particularly musically inclined?? :laugh: :laugh:

Ed

 

[ituttut]

In my Wednesday night series preaching through the book of Matthew, we were in Matthew 24 tonight, and because of the content of the chapter, I couldn't help but devote the entire sermon to giving an accurate chronology of the book of Revelation and demolishing the pre-tribulation rapture theory. Here is the link to the sermon:

http://www.faithful wordbaptist. org/page5. html

Can any pre-tribber sit through the entire sermon and still believe in the pre-tribulation rapture? I don't see how it could be any clearer.

Sincerely,

Pastor Steven L Anderson
Faithful Word Baptist Church
www.faithfulwordbap tist.org

For some reason, cannot bring up on your website "Matthew 24" presentation.

That aside, the reason you cannot see Pretrib from that "view" (Book of Matthew) is you do not have all the facts. With only the knowledge shown in Matthew and the rest of the Old Testament, I believe it is difficult to make an airtight case for Pre-trib stance.

All you have in Matthew is the "Kingdom Church" with the gospel of "the kingdom is at hand", and the Law and the Prophets before. Of course you may have interjected Paul in your account, but not being able to access your presentation, and no mention of any revelation from Christ in heaven (to Paul)in your post, I assume full understanding is missing in you conclusion.

Tribulation would have to come, but to me it is so very difficult to be certain when tribulation "would have come" had Israel accepted Messiah. Since that did not happen, and another dispensation appeared that God had hidden, we now know the "tribulation" cannot begin until we are "caught up". And its signs will begin immediately following our ascent.

 

[ituttut]

I agree with that, BUT, Matthew 24, Jesus is speaking to and about Israel.

See here, you approach on the right track, and are perhaps aware of the following. Only the "Kingdom Church" is known in Matthew. The "Body Church" must be taken into account, and it was unknown until some years later after Damascus Road.

Semper Fi

 

[USMC71]

I really do not know, but would guess it might be a trumpet, or some close relative of the same. Uh, were the tears from laughing so hard at me, since I am not particularly musically inclined?? :laugh: :laugh:

Ed

Let's be politically correct and call it the "Rapture Trumpet", or the "Preterist, Pretrib, Premil trumpet.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Ituttut: // ... we now know the "tribulation" cannot begin until we
are "caught up". And its signs will begin immediately following our ascent.//

Amen, Brother Ituttut -- Preach it!

------------------------------------------------
The Five Tribulations
of the Holy Bible
Contrasted and compared
by ed

The following terms are used in the Holy Bible to denote
tribulation: tribulation, distress, afliction, trouble

1. tribulation due to the human condition
WHO: all the sons and daughters of Adam & Eve
WHAT: heartaches, pains, troubles, distresses, disappointements,
affliction, trouble, ordeal, suffering, wretchedness,
misfortune, worry, care, hardship, agony,
anguish, torment, adversity,
travail of a woman giving birth, disease, cancer,
famine, plague, fatigue, depression, etc.
WHEN: From Adam's explusion from the Garden of Eden
to the day a new heaven & new earth is created by
God, AKA: time as opposed to eternity
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: God only knows why, it is just the way things are,
maybe it has to do with the fall of man in the Garden of Eden?

2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
WHO: those Christians chosen by the Holy Spirit for special honor
WHAT: persecution by non-Christians: Pagans, athiests, and
even people who call themselves "Christian" but aren't
WHEN: 33AD to the start of the millinnial kingdom of Jesus
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: many are called to follow Jesus;
few are chosen to the honor of the spiritual
gift of martyrdom

3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles
WHO: Yisrael dispersed among the goy
WHAT: persecution by non-Christians: Pagans, athiests, and
usually people who call themselves "Christian" but aren't
WHEN: during the time of the Gentiles
(from Mount Calvary to Mount Olivet)
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: punishment for rejecting Messiah Jesus

4. "The Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antichrist
(AKA: Wrath of the Lamb /Revelation 6:17/ )
WHO: citizens of the world
WHAT: a fate worse than death (Rev 6:15-17, Rev 9:6)
WHEN: during the 70th week of Daniel (first half)
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: punishment for rejecting Lord Jesus

5. "The Great Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antrichrist
WHO: people who take the mark of the beast
WHAT: the wrath of God
WHEN: during the 70th week of Daniel (last half)
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: punishment for rejecting Lord Jesus

Note that #1, #2, and #3 are measured in travail units;
#4 and #5 are measured in time units.

Here are the names/descriptions of the Tribulation
Period found in the O.T.:

The tribulation in Deut 4:30
the day of Israel's calamity in Deut 32:35, Obadiah 1:12-14
the indignation in Isaiah 26:20, Daniel 11:36
the overflowing scourge in Isaiah 28:15,18
The Lord's strange work in Isaiah 28:21
The year of recompence in Isaiah 34:8
The day of vengeance in Isaiah 34:8, 35:4, 61:2
The time of Jacob's Trouble in Jeremiah 30:7
The day of darkness in Joel 2:2, Amos 5:18, 20; Zephaniah 1:15
See also Zephaniah 1:15-16.:

 

[EdSutton]

You just brought me to tears. How beautimus!! Now, which horn is used in Handels Messiah?

Actually, since I looked it up, and you used the word "used" - i.e. "employed, there are 5 horns employed, apparently- two oboes, one bassoon, and two trumpets, among the instrumentation of Handel. (Mozart added several more instruments, in his adaptation.)

The words of "The Messiah" or "Messiah", with advocates of both titles, have a verse of Scripture in it that speaks of "the last trumpet" (I Cor. 15:52), and again where it is stated that "the trumpet shall sound" in the same verse.

And FTR, I have no intentions of being "politically correct", at any time, but do attempt to be Biblically correct, for that to me is necessary. Oh yeah!! One more thing! Were I to even think about calling this "the preterist trumpet", I'd no doubt be required to turn in my 'Scofield'! :BangHead: :tear: :laugh:

Ed

 

[USMC71]

Actually, since I looked it up, and you used the word "used" - i.e. "employed, there are 5 horns employed, apparently- two oboes, one bassoon, and two trumpets, among the instrumentation of Handel. (Mozart added several more instruments, in his adaptation.)

The words of "The Messiah" or "Messiah", with advocates of both titles, have a verse of Scripture in it that speaks of "the last trumpet" (I Cor. 15:52), and again where it is stated that "the trumpet shall sound" in the same verse.

And FTR, I have no intentions of being "politically correct", at any time, but do attempt to be Biblically correct, for that to me is necessary. Oh yeah!! One more thing! Were I to even think about calling this "the preterist trumpet", I'd no doubt be required to turn in my 'Scofield'! :BangHead: :tear: :laugh:

Ed

Ah, now ya done it. You had to use that name, Scofield. Didn't you know he was inspired, too? And how did I know you would look up those horns, those Preterist horns, that is?

 

[EdSutton]

See here, you approach on the right track, and are perhaps aware of the following. Only the "Kingdom Church" is known in Matthew. The "Body Church" must be taken into account, and it was unknown until some years later after Damascus Road.

Semper Fi

The computer, aided by my ineptness, ate my first composition to this.

I'll try again.

Lemme' see if I get this pretty much right, as to your contention.

Your contention is that there were two different kinds of "the church". So therefore Jesus was gonna' build His "Kingdom Church" (Matt. 16:16), which would seem to be the one the case of the 'sinning brother' would be brought before (Matt. 18:17). Am I right so far? But it was the "Body Church" that "He purchased with his own blood" (Acts 20:28) {confused}.
Ergo, Paul had persecuted the "Kingdom Church" (I Cor. 15:9), but tells us that God appointed the spiritual gifts to the "Body Church" (I Cor. 12:28).
Therfore Paul ("Body Church") and Barnabas ["Kingdom Church"(Acts 4:36)] somehow wound up in the same church (Baptist church maybe?) at Antioch, and were both teaching there at the same time (Are you sure this was not a seminary?? ) (Acts 13:1), got sent on a mission trip together by the Holy Spirit (Acts 13:1-3), preached to a 'mixed crowd' in Iconium (probably basically "Kingdom Church" types but somewhat open-minded, since they were in a synagogue but with Greeks and/or Gentiles there as well (Acts 14:1-6, which was harboring under the surface, not just a 'church split', but a ' 'city-wide' split'), went to Jerusalem to that "Kingdom Church" to report what God had done and was doing in the "Body Church", and that "Kingdom Church" agreed to send a letter to the "Baptist church" at Antioch, and sent it, but the "Kingdom Church" crowd still showed their favoritism by calling Barnabas, 'their beloved Barnabas' and allowing Paul along reluctantly (Acts 15:25) - [both of whom were apostles (Acts 14:14 ) since apparently the Holy Spirit had not made this extra distinction )]

"No wonder Paul and Barnabas fell out"! (Acts 15:39)!! If this had been happening in the churches in my area, there would have already been a 'split', and then both of the 'splits' would have 'split', again, making a total of four! I'd like to :laugh: , but know we should really :tear: ! But I digress.

Yet Paul, the magnanimous one that he was, still later instructed some of the "Body Church" groups to take up a collection for those of "Kingdom Church" fame at Jerusalem (Rom. 15:25-31; I Cor. 16:3, II Cor. 9:1).

I think there are too many distinctions being forced upon these texts that are simply not supported by Scripture. And in the words of Lt. Colombo, as he would try and light his cigar, hunting for a match, and trying make notes in his pad all at the same time:

"So do you see my problem, here?"

Ed

 

[Allan]

Uh,....I think I made a wrong turn~! :wavey: bye now :tongue3:


But USM and ED Edward --- You two PREACH BROTHERS!!

 

[ituttut]

PART 1

ituttut: See here, you approach on the right track, and are perhaps aware of the following. Only the "Kingdom Church" is known in Matthew. The "Body Church" must be taken into account, and it was unknown until some years later after Damascus Road.

Semper Fi
__________________________________

Ed: The computer, aided by my ineptness, ate my first composition to this.

I'll try again.

Lemme' see if I get this pretty much right, as to your contention.

Your contention is that there were two different kinds of "the church".

Scripture tells us this is so. Acts 2:38 asks what must we do, and Acts 16:32. asks what must I do.

So therefore Jesus was gonna' build His "Kingdom Church" (Matt. 16:16), which would seem to be the one the case of the 'sinning brother' would be brought before (Matt. 18:17). Am I right so far?

If you use Matthew 16:16-19 you have it right, for this is the foundation that the gospel of Peter will build upon, this being the "Kingdom Church". What is included in that Jewish Pentecostal gospel? The nation must repent of their sins (they made covenant with God and broke that covenant), and they must be baptized for the remission of their sins. Can you agree this is what the Bible says?

But it was the "Body Church" that "He purchased with his own blood" (Acts 20:28) {confused}.
Ergo, Paul had persecuted the "Kingdom Church" (I Cor. 15:9), but tells us that God appointed the spiritual gifts to the "Body Church" (I Cor. 12:28).

You jump way ahead confusing the issue. It didn't take very long for you to come to grave error in failing to believe in the "dispensational" gospel of God. You have gone into the future in your time machine, and come back to make the erroneous assumption that that everybody knew about the "Body Church", before Damascus Road. Did Jesus ever say he came for the "Gentile dogs"? Saul did persecute (before Damascus Road) the "Kingdom Church", for there was no other church to persecute, and the "Kingdom was at hand".

This devout, dedicated Pharisee of Temple worship that believed and knew the Law of Moses and the prophets could not tolerate any that would equate themselves with God. Jesus did this, and Saul with the blessing of the Sanhedrin would kill, jail, and bring to justice every Jew he could find that mocked, or degraded His God. When did you find out the Body of Christ? Was it not after Damascus Road?

Paul had rounded up or ran most all the Jewish Pentecostals out of Jerusalem and Judah. With papers in hand from the hierarchy of the Jewish nation, this "hit" man was now going into Gentile territory to find these "circumcised" enemies of His God. But someone knocked Saul to the ground, and blinded him to get his full attention. God would use this man of letters, and faith to do His will. He would make him (Saul/Paul) suffer probably more than any other during his devoted ministry. This man of Law would now become the man that would be taught personally by Christ Jesus in heaven the gospel of "grace apart from the law".

We become confused when we say we know the "secret" was really no "secret", and the gospel has been the same from the beginning.

Therfore Paul ("Body Church") and Barnabas ["Kingdom Church"(Acts 4:36)] somehow wound up in the same church (Baptist church maybe?) at Antioch, and were both teaching there at the same time (Are you sure this was not a seminary?? ) (Acts 13:1), got sent on a mission trip together by the Holy Spirit (Acts 13:1-3), preached to a 'mixed crowd' in Iconium (probably basically "Kingdom Church" types but somewhat open-minded, since they were in a synagogue but with Greeks and/or Gentiles there as well (Acts 14:1-6, which was harboring under the surface, not just a 'church split', but a ' 'city-wide' split'), went to Jerusalem to that "Kingdom Church" to report what God had done and was doing in the "Body Church", and that "Kingdom Church" agreed to send a letter to the "Baptist church" at Antioch, and sent it, but the "Kingdom Church" crowd still showed their favoritism by calling Barnabas, 'their beloved Barnabas' and allowing Paul along reluctantly (Acts 15:25) - [both of whom were apostles (Acts 14:14 ) since apparently the Holy Spirit had not made this extra distinction )]

See, I told you how confused people can get. We are to understand God is a God of division. Did He not carve out of mankind His on nation, His own people, and His own wife. From the very first we see He divides heaven and earth; light from dark, days (time) from eternity, the waters from the waters, and on it goes. But he brings back together again.

It took 400 years to make Israel a nation, and the Law along with it, and then the prophets. Then to make way for the "Kingdom Church" with the gospel for the "circumcised", those that made covenant with God, came John the Baptist, Jesus' forerunner. Jesus plainly tells us this gospel is for Israel only, and this "Kingdom Church" message to Israel is "repent and be baptized for the remission of their sins". Tell me if the Bible is in error on these points?

This was a simple gospel and Israel had about 4 years to absorb this gospel of the "Kingdom" at hand, but with the stoning of Steven, Israel was cut-off. Pentecost is the "preview" of the "Kingdom Church", which will now have to be phased out, passing away with the destruction of the Temple, and Jerusalem.

Some years after Pentecost, perhaps 5 or 6 years we see the encounter at Damascus Road. Within a few days Christ begins teaching Paul the "grace commission", and by the time we get to Acts 19 (about 59-60 A.D.) we find the first reference to the Body of Christ.

So how can you speak of the "Body of Christ" gospel being known before that time? Barnabas and Paul parted company in Acts 15, quite sometime before Christ revealed the "Body Church" to Paul.

 

[ituttut]

PART 2

"No wonder Paul and Barnabas fell out"! (Acts 15:39)!! If this had been happening in the churches in my area, there would have already been a 'split', and then both of the 'splits' would have 'split', again, making a total of four! I'd like to , but know we should really ! But I digress.

I believe the parting of the ways between these two had to be the work of God, for Paul had now been fully accepted and prepared to now begin turning his full attention to the Gentile, and would began hammering home the Jew will now start being "justified through faith" just as the Gentile's are for now there is no difference. Barnabas was "justified by faith" and we see in Galatians 2 he wished to remain in the "Kingdom Church", on the foundation built by Peter. He saw he could not straddle trying to stand on that "Kingdom" foundation, and on Paul's foundation of the "Body". Barnabas was more comfortable and wished to be in the "Apostles Kingdom" that Christ gave to them.

Should we not remember what Christ Jesus tells Paul from Heaven? He has been chosen to be the Apostle to the Gentile. Paul and Barnabas say in Acts 13, they will turn to the Gentiles. Paul in Acts 18 again says he will go to the Gentile, but he must move to Rome, the center of Gentile civilization to actually do so, and we see God gets Him there in Acts 28:28, and we will hear and believe the gospel of "justification through faith". The purpose of God will now go forward to all the world by Paul preaching the "dispensational" gospel that Christ gave to him from heaven.

Yet Paul, the magnanimous one that he was, still later instructed some of the "Body Church" groups to take up a collection for those of "Kingdom Church" fame at Jerusalem (Rom. 15:25-31; I Cor. 16:3, II Cor. 9:1).

Of course he would for that "Kingdom Church" was also built on the same foundation that is the "Body Church", and that foundation is Jesus Christ. Can't you image how Paul felt about the way he persecuted that church, and this was one way to make amends. But make no mistake, the generosity and understanding of the Christian churches was not a joining of the "circumcision" gospel of Repent and be Baptized for the Remission of Sins, and do any of their works such as still making blood sacrifice, and doing ordinances of the Law that had been nailed to the Cross for those believer's in the "Body of Christ Church".

I think there are too many distinctions being forced upon these texts that are simply not supported by Scripture. And in the words of Lt. Colombo, as he would try and light his cigar, hunting for a match, and trying make notes in his pad all at the same time:

"So do you see my problem, here?"

Yes I do, but can you now see what God had hidden until after Damascus Road? Jesus said while He was on this earth that He didn't come for me. When He got to heaven and took His seat next to His Father (after the stoning of Stephen) they (Triune God) set into motion the purpose of God to begin reconciling the world unto Himself, of those who believe on the Lord Jesus Christ for their salvation. Until that time (Paul commissioned as the only Apostle to the Gentile), and not before, did God make it possible for me to be able to be in the Temple. We Gentiles before could not enter into the Temple, but now we are in the Temple - Revelation 21:27.

As said previously said God is a God of division (Holy Place, and the Most Holy Place) but He brings back together. When all is said and done, and the Millennium Kingdom is over, and new heaven and earth made, God will be all in all.

 

[EdSutton]

PART 1
Scripture tells us this is so. Acts 2:38 asks what must we do, and Acts 16:32. asks what must I do. If you use Matthew 16:16-19 you have it right, for this is the foundation that the gospel of Peter will build upon, this being the "Kingdom Church". What is included in that Jewish Pentecostal gospel? The nation must repent of their sins (they made covenant with God and broke that covenant), and they must be baptized for the remission of their sins. Can you agree this is what the Bible says? You jump way ahead confusing the issue. It didn't take very long for you to come to grave error in failing to believe in the "dispensational" gospel of God.

Overlooking the fact that Acts 2:38 is a 'plural' response in the form of a question to a specific message vis-a vis` Acts 16:30, which is a direct question answered in v. 31 (and 16:32 is the record of the 'exposition' of the message to all the household of the jailer), and ignoring the fact that you, at least, think I got one little thing right :tongue3: (kinda' like a blind hog in the forest finding an acorn, I guess), there are two things wrong with what you have written here.

First and foremost, and as I have said before multiple times, nowhere in scripture are we (or "The nation", for that matter) ever told they "must repent of their sins", for these words are found as a phrase, nowhere in Scripture. Read the verse you are quoting here carefully, and get back to me on this.
Second, I think you are mistaken about what I may believe or not believe as to "the "dispensational" gospel of God", another phrase not found anywhere in Scripture, BTW. FTR, I am definitely one who is a dispensationist, Biblically, as we are living in what Scripture terms "the dispensation of the grace of God".

See, I told you how confused people can get.

Are you here speaking from experience? Just wonderin'! :laugh:

Tell me if the Bible is in error on these points?

I do not believe the Bible is in error on any points, and have never suggested such in any of my 58 years. I agree fully, completely, and without any mental reservation, with the Chicago Statements, The Baptist Faith and Message, the Doctrinal Statement of the school I attended, and any other statements to the effect that the Bible is completly without error in the whole or in the parts, for I believe that to be the testimony of Scripture, itself. :thumbsup: I must admit, I cannot always say the same for myself, as to error, given my own limited intellect and understanding.

So how can you speak of the "Body of Christ" gospel being known before that time? Barnabas and Paul parted company in Acts 15, quite sometime before Christ revealed the "Body Church" to Paul.

I don't believe I spoke of any ""Body of Christ" gospel", at all, for I never recall using that phrase. Let me check my posts. Nope! I checked! Not there! In fact, I did not use the word "gospel" at all in this thread until now, in response to your post. And since it seems to have somehow eluded your awareness, I'll try and say what I was saying once again.
My 'objection' has to do with 'defining' scriptural words by tacking on words or classifications that Scripture does not make. (Theology is another matter.) I believe we are to derive our theology from the Scriptures, not read Scripture through the lens of our theology. I have humerously? or sadly? (You decide!) referred to this in the past by calling it Rule #3 from Bible College. That rule is -

" Never Allow The Bible to Interfere with Your Theology! "

Two more points: I think you are mistaken about Barnabas in Galatians 2, for Scripture does not support your conclusion, but rather states that he was 'taken in' by the hypocrisy of Peter in his attempt to be 'popular' with everybody, and Peter's fearing the Jews. (Gal. 2:11- 3:10) It says nothing about wanting to be with any "kingdom church".

And I would finally say that I kinda' thought Jesus "sat down" when He had offered the once for all time sacrifice for sins (Heb. 1:3; 8;1; 10:12; 12:2) as opposed to waiting 5-10 years to do this, and 'stood up' to give Stephen a "standing ovation". :applause:

Ed

 

[ituttut]

Originally Posted by ituttut
Scripture tells us this is so. Acts 2:38 asks what must we do, and Acts 16:32. asks what must I do. If you use Matthew 16:16-19 you have it right, for this is the foundation that the gospel of Peter will build upon, this being the "Kingdom Church". What is included in that Jewish Pentecostal gospel? The nation must repent of their sins (they made covenant with God and broke that covenant), and they must be baptized for the remission of their sins. Can you agree this is what the Bible says? You jump way ahead confusing the issue. It didn't take very long for you to come to grave error in failing to believe in the "dispensational" gospel of God.

Overlooking the fact that Acts 2:38 is a 'plural' response in the form of a question to a specific message vis-a vis` Acts 16:30, which is a direct question answered in v. 31 (and 16:32 is the record of the 'exposition' of the message to all the household of the jailer), and ignoring the fact that you, at least, think I got one little thing right (kinda' like a blind hog in the forest finding an acorn, I guess), there are two things wrong with what you have written here.

But the terminology is we, and I. In being "dispensational", I look for the "dispensational" gospel that was given to Paul. I find it here, but I did not write my thoughts . I wrote what Israel asked, and what the Gentile jailer asked, so I got one right.

Ed, let's notice that you answered a post I made to USMC71. My reply to you is of your questioning the Church of Jesus Christ, in which I endeavored to show there are the "Kingdom Church" and the "Body Church". They are One, yet a division is made in scripture, and if we can believe Jesus Christ while on earth, and also believe Christ Jesus in heaven, this is the conclusion we are to arrive at.

I know you are aware of what we find in the Temple Building, a larger room (Holy Place), divided from a smaller room (Most Holy Place). Do we believe Paul when he says he will not build on another man's foundation (Peter's)? If so then we know why. The "covenant people" those promised the "earthly Kingdom" had Priests that could enter the Temple and the Holy Place, but only specific Priests could enter into the Most Holy Place. As we are in the "Body Church", are we not in the Most Holy Place that their High Priest entered, the veil being rent? After Damascus Road we can now make determination what God had hidden.

Isaiah tells us Israel was in blindness walking in darkness, and still is (II Corinthians 3:14), as is those of this world, but there are those in the "Kingdom Church". You and I can see what God had hidden. All peoples today can be reconciled to God. He offers us Peace. Again we must make valid distinctions, allowing the Bible to interpret for us. It will do it for us if we "rightly divide His Word", II Timothy 2:15. Example, Our "Body" future hope, and their "Kingdom" future hope. God will keep His promise with those He made "covenant" with.

The Israel "Kingdom Church" involves the earth - Genesis 17:8; 28:13; 35:12. Exodus 6:4-8, then Leviticus 26:42-45, and Judges 2:1. Isaiah 60:21, Jeremiah 32:40-41, Ezekiel 48:29, and Matthew 5:5.

The "Body Church" involves the heavenlies with no earthly inheritance - Ephesians 1:3; Philippians 3:20; Colossians, and I Thessalonians 4:17.

Can you see my problem here? Whoops! I think I cheated by looking ahead of what I couldn't have known before.

First and foremost, and as I have said before multiple times, nowhere in scripture are we (or "The nation", for that matter) ever told they "must repent of their sins", for these words are found as a phrase, nowhere in Scripture. Read the verse you are quoting here carefully, and get back to me on this.

Thanks for this reply, but I'll take exception here for surely His Word teaches both they and we are to repent, turn around, or toward Him for we have changed our thinking.

Jesus is very specific in Luke 13:3 of saying the must; "I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish." Regardless of what verse is quoted when metanoeo used it means Peter's gospel came by way of John the Baptist of "repenting and being baptized for the remission of their sins." We see this in Mark 1:14:15, "Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, 15. And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel." What was the Gospel at that time? The same as that in the "great commission", and that of Peter in Acts 2:38. The "covenant" people had to perform a work in their repentance, to receive "remission of their sins", and it was by the Grace of God. Are we to believe James to first show our works, or Paul showing our faith will produce the works?


You know water Baptism is not part of our salvation, but we must do a better job of separation for so many Baptist are now including in their preaching they believe in the "great commission", and most now seem to be looking for the "Kingdom to come". That foundation Peter builds on is the "Rock", Jesus Christ. Paul builds on the same foundation, but we are circumcised and baptized without hands, when we turn to Him, for in Him is Our Repentance. He took our sins and when we "confess His name" our sins are no more. This is justification through faith, and theirs is by faith. It is God's doing we are told.

Second, I think you are mistaken about what I may believe or not believe as to "the "dispensational" gospel of God", another phrase not found anywhere in Scripture, BTW. FTR, I am definitely one who is a dispensationist, Biblically, as we are living in what Scripture terms "the dispensation of the grace of God".

You have a way of turning what you direct at me, telling me what I believe (yours, "I think there are too many distinctions being forced upon these texts that are simply not supported by Scripture.") is fairy tales, into me being mistaken of what you believe. In defending my stance it was necessary to point out certain things, as I saw Doctor Watson instead of Lt. Colombo. There I go again, bringing in valid information that I did not previously know. It is so very easy to "mix and match" when we know the truth. But we need to determine when "truth" was first made available.

Yes, I have read a number of your Posts, and notice you have a "dispensational" understanding of His Word, and it is Biblical. But I opt for "understanding this hidden dispensation", from that which was prophesied, for it is what He has shown me.

Will continue.

 

[ituttut]

Continued

Quote:
Originally Posted by EDSutton
Originally Posted by ituttut
See, I told you how confused people can get.

Are you here speaking from experience? Just wonderin'!

I lived on that street for many years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ituttut
Tell me if the Bible is in error on these points?

I do not believe the Bible is in error on any points, and have never suggested such in any of my 58 years. I agree fully, completely, and without any mental reservation, with the Chicago Statements, The Baptist Faith and Message, the Doctrinal Statement of the school I attended, and any other statements to the effect that the Bible is completly without error in the whole or in the parts, for I believe that to be the testimony of Scripture, itself. I must admit, I cannot always say the same for myself, as to error, given my own limited intellect and understanding.

We are two of a kind then for I'm no great intellect and must lean on Him as I know you must for understanding. The more I read the whole Bible, the more I understand, as long as I stick with the 5 "W's" with the How of it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ituttut
So how can you speak of the "Body of Christ" gospel being known before that time? Barnabas and Paul parted company in Acts 15, quite sometime before Christ revealed the "Body Church" to Paul.

I don't believe I spoke of any ""Body of Christ" gospel", at all, for I never recall using that phrase. Let me check my posts. Nope! I checked! Not there! In fact, I did not use the word "gospel" at all in this thread until now, in response to your post. And since it seems to have somehow eluded your awareness, I'll try and say what I was saying once again.

You make distinction in your clowning around, viz. "Therfore Paul ("Body Church") and Barnabas ["Kingdom Church"(Acts 4:36)] somehow wound up in the same church (Baptist church maybe?) at Antioch, and were both teaching there at the same time (Are you sure this was not a seminary?? ).

My 'objection' has to do with 'defining' scriptural words by tacking on words or classifications that Scripture does not make. (Theology is another matter.) I believe we are to derive our theology from the Scriptures, not read Scripture through the lens of our theology. I have humerously? or sadly? (You decide!) referred to this in the past by calling it Rule #3 from Bible College. That rule is -

" Never Allow The Bible to Interfere with Your Theology! "

That is a witty saying, and half-truths can be arrived at when the study of God is done from a preconceived denominational view, which leaves many verses unanswered. But Hey, I'm with you - to a certain degree. We believe in the "rapture", but that "word" is not there, however you and I can see it, and some can't. Does what I present look like Theology, or Revelation from heaven? My teacher is Paul, of whom we can believe for His teacher is Christ Jesus in heaven. God spoke to Moses and Moses spoke to Aaron. I see no difference for Christ spoke to Paul, and Paul speaks to us.

I believe the same as you for God today only speaks to us through His Word, the Bible. He is going to get face to face on His return, and He will then verbally communicate by mouth again, especially with His people.

Two more points: I think you are mistaken about Barnabas in Galatians 2, for Scripture does not support your conclusion, but rather states that he was 'taken in' by the hypocrisy of Peter in his attempt to be 'popular' with everybody, and Peter's fearing the Jews. (Gal. 2:11- 3:10) It says nothing about wanting to be with any "kingdom church".

We disagree again dear friend, as we know Peter, Barnabas, James, John were "justified by faith" for we are told the circumcised in Christ are saved in this manner, and also the proselytes, therefore they are of the "promise" made to those that "made covenant with God". They have chosen to be in the "Kingdom Church". I believe they have a choice: Acts 13:42-43, "And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.
43. Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God."These must be in the grace of God justified by faith.

And I would finally say that I kinda' thought Jesus "sat down" when He had offered the once for all time sacrifice for sins (Heb. 1:3; 8;1; 10:12; 12:2) as opposed to waiting 5-10 years to do this, and 'stood up' to give Stephen a "standing ovation".

Agree, and couldn't understand your objection until I went back to my post. What a little conjunction can do to change the meaning. It should have read (and after the stoning of Stephen).

 

[Ed Edwards]

Pretrib pre-mill outline of time forward:

0. church age continues <== you are here!
1. rapture/resurrection event
2. Tribulation time
3. Second Advent of Jesus event
4. literal MK=millennial kingdom
5. new heaven & new earth

The time line according to Matthew 24
(Mount Olivet Discourse, also Matthew 25,
Mark 13, Luke 21):

0. church age continues <== you are here!
Matthew 24:4-15

1. rapture/resurrection event
Matthew 24:31-44

2. Tribulation time
Matthew 24:21-28

3. Second Advent of Jesus event
Matthew 24:29-30)

Not mentioned in Matthew 24:
(4. literal MK=millennial kingdom)
(5. new heaven & new earth)

The time line according to Revelation:

0. church age continues - Rev 2-3 <== you are here!
1. rapture/resurrection event - Rev 4:1 (type)
2. Tribulation time - Rev 4:2-19:10
3. Second Advent of Jesus event - Rev 19:11-21
4. literal MK=millennial kingdom - Rev 20:1-6
5. new heaven & new earth - Rev 20:7-22:5

The time line according to 2 Thessalonians 2:

0. church age continues <== you are here!
(implied, until the falling away)

1. rapture/resurrection
v.1 - gathering together unto him
v.3 - falling away

2. Tribulation time
(time of the man of sin)

3. Second Advent of Jesus event
v.1 - coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
v.8

Not mentioned:
(4. literal MK=millennial kingdom)
(5. new heaven & new earth)

BTW, I believed in the pre-tribulation rapture/resurrection
before i saw these three scriptures as pretrib.
So even if you can prove all three of these scriptures
in error, I'll still hope in the pre-tribulation rapture
as will 80% of Baptists and 60% of kindred Christians.