When does the rapture occur?

[ituttut]

Pretrib pre-mill outline of time forward (snipped)
The time line according to Matthew 24
(Mount Olivet Discourse, also Matthew 25,
Mark 13, Luke 21):

0. church age continues <== you are here!
Matthew 24:4-15

1. rapture/resurrection event
Matthew 24:31-44
(snipped)

Ed, preacher man of God, we do not see eye to eye on this one if I read correctly your - "1. rapture/resurrection event
Matthew 24:31-44." This is too specific, as we "being caught up" cannot be known at this time.

Matthew 24:31 refers to His Second Coming. "And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." Has God sent angels to us, or did angels appear to Israel? Scripture shows angels have a connection with Israel. Our Lord Himself will "catch us up", resurrecting those of the "Body Church". The angels have the honor of rounding up the "Kingdom Church".

Something will happen that was not prophesied, and I believe the "rapture" is to be inserted between verses 12 and 13, as division, and provision must be made for we today. We Gentiles owe much to Israel for they "stumbled" allowing God to implement His intent from the beginning. God foreknew Israel would not accept Messiah, and God "hid" His purpose from man, for "… we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: 8. Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory", I Corinthians 2:7-8.

So I believe the definitive statement of truth available to man at the time Jesus spoke these words (Matt.24) must refer to His Second coming to this earth.

Please compare Matthew 24:31 above with I Corinthians 15:52, "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed," and also I Thessalonians 4:16-18, "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18. Wherefore comfort one another with these words." I believe we have a prevue of this shout shown in John 11:43. Everybody knows His name, but what we need to worry about is, does He know our name?

I don't see how Matthew 24:31 can be the "last" trumpet, for the "trumpet" is not identified as such. Also notice Matthew says "And he shall send his angels". In I Thess. 4 above "rapture," says nothing about "send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet". These two verses cannot refer to the same happening for they contradict.

This last "trump" of our raising is not found in prophecy, but is in prophecy, but we can identify those other "trumpets" announcing wrath. How is this possible? We are shown there beginning, but not there ending.

I believe we can see the first "trumpet" making reference to "our last trump" in Numbers 29:1, "And in the seventh month, on the first day of the month, ye shall have an holy convocation; ye shall do no servile work: it is a day of blowing the trumpets unto you. 2. And ye shall offer a burnt offering for a sweet savour unto the Lord; one young bullock, one ram, and seven lambs of the first year without blemish". I believe this is the month (October) that Jesus was born, and of course the "burnt offering" is Jesus. The encounter on Damascus Road is not in prophecy. The "heralding trumpets" are in prophecy, but the "pure grace of God" reconciling the world unto Himself cannot be found in prophecy. Jesus fulfilled prophecy, and in so doing we can now see the beginning of the prophecy of His birth and His death, and the ending of the Grace "dispensation" as the last trump sounds (not of prophecy)in I Cor. 15.

Also when we compare the "trumpets" we see they are not of the same purpose. The trumpets in the above references of I Cor., and I Thess. are heralding trumpets. The Trumpet in Matthew 24 is of the "trumpets" prophesied in Revelation, all being connected with the "wrath of God. They are in his "wrath", and ends with "cruel both with wrath and fierce anger" Surely we in the "Body Church" will not have anything to do with His Wrath, and certainly not His cruel anger in that day. Romans 5:9, "Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him". We have a sure hope.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Speaking of Matthew 24, Ituttut sez: // ... I believe the "rapture" is to
be inserted between verses 12 and 13 ... //

I respectfully suggest that Matthew 24:4-14 are
the signs of the continuing Church Age.
For example, here are some times throughout the
Church Age when 24:14 was said:

----------------------------------------------
Matthew 24:14 (HCSB):

This good news of the kingdom will be proclaimed
in all the world as a testimony to all nations.
And then the end will come.


Items quoted from THE ALMANAC OF THE CHRISTIAN WORLD,
1991-1992 Edition (Tyndale, 1990), page 305+.

61AD - Colossians 1:6 (HCSB):
the gospel that has come to you. It is bearing fruit
and growing all over the world, just as it has
among you since the day you heard it and recognized
God's grace in the truth.

c. 140AD - Hermas writes: "The Son of God ... has
been preached to the ends of the earth" (Shepherd
of Hermas).

197AD - Tertullian (c160-222) ... writes ... "There
is no nation indeed which is not Christian" ...

c. 205AD - Clement of Alexandria (c155-215) ... writes
"The whole world, with Athens and Greece, has already
become the domain of the Word."

c. 310 - Eusebius of Caesarea (c265-339) writes ...
""The doctrine of the Savious
has irradiated the whole Oikumene
(whole inhabited earth)"

378 - Jerome (c345-419) writes: "From India to Britian, all
nations resound with the death and resurrection of CHrist".
estimates 1.9 million Christians to have been marytred
since AD33 (out of 120 million Christians). ...

etc.
-----------------------------------------

 

[ituttut]

Speaking of Matthew 24, Ituttut sez: // ... I believe the "rapture" is to
be inserted between verses 12 and 13 ... //

I respectfully suggest that Matthew 24:4-14 are
the signs of the continuing Church Age.
For example, here are some times throughout the
Church Age when 24:14 was said:

----------------------------------------------
Matthew 24:14 (HCSB):

This good news of the kingdom will be proclaimed
in all the world as a testimony to all nations.
And then the end will come.

Hello again EdE. It seems we do not agree on everything. You knowledge is great in His Word, but mine is also.

With Love for His Word I must reply in this manner. Verse 14 is the Temple Age which becomes the "Kingdom Church". The Body of Christ (Body Church) is unknown at this time, as is justification through faith of the Gentiles, or "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved", you Gentiles. Jesus while on earth said He did not come for me, and in this instance this verse cannot apply to we today.

The "good news" of the "Kingdom Church" gospel of the circumcised will be preached to all nations in the tribulation period, by those of Israel. This is their gospel to present to the world, and not ours. Israel and the proselytes will again offer blood sacrifice, and all will (of the Kingdom) have to be circumcised. They will have to repent and be water baptized for they broke covenant with God, and turned to Idol worship.

The Apostles continued in blood sacrifice and Jewish "rites" of Temple worship. We don't do such things, and were never asked to.

Items quoted from THE ALMANAC OF THE CHRISTIAN WORLD,
1991-1992 Edition (Tyndale, 1990), page 305+.

61AD - Colossians 1:6 (HCSB):
the gospel that has come to you. It is bearing fruit
and growing all over the world, just as it has
among you since the day you heard it and recognized
God's grace in the truth.

The very first verse in Colossians is important for us to understand, before he commends them on their "faith in Christ Jesus" for their salvation.

Things today have not changed too much. He had to keep repeating it over and over, just as did Christ that He, Jesus was what He claimed to be, Israel's Messiah. We still have people today that are not sure that Paul is the Apostle to we Gentile and Jew of today. They just do not believe that Christ gave to Paul His (God's) dispensational gospel of by grace are we saved through faith, without the need for works to be justified. We see it in I Corinthians 1:1; 9:1-2; II Corinthians 12:11-12, Galatians 1:1, and 11-12, as well as here in Colossians. Some didn't believe he had the divine authority. It is a different gospel than what Peter and the rest preached, for Peter's foundation on Jesus Christ is not our foundation on Christ Jesus.

Paul had a different gospel he was given by Christ from heaven, for it had to be. We cannot be saved as were the Jews, which were justified by faith, for today God sees all as before Abraham. God will not speak to or recognize Israel again until the beginning of His "wrath", which begins after we are taken up.

This is Paul's gospel you refer to and it is not the gospel of John the Baptist, Jesus (great commission), or that of Peter in Acts 2:38. That is the gospel the Catholics believe, and it is the gospel of the "circumcised".

Verse 5 tells of the hope laid up in heaven, not an earthly inheritance, for the full truth (secret is now known) gospel, and it bears fruit since the day they heard it. They heard of the "Grace of God".

Verses 12 and 13 says the Father has made partakers of inheritance in "light", out of the Power of the darkness. We are in Him, in His "Kingdom", and not that "Kingdom" he gave to His Apostles.

Verse 18 tells us we are in the "Body Church", and verses 25-27 can only be said by one Apostle, and that is our Apostle Paul. We have no other Apostle, for Christ Jesus in heaven chose our Apostle for us.

c. 140AD - Hermas writes: "The Son of God ... has
been preached to the ends of the earth" (Shepherd
of Hermas).

If any that believe there are "Fathers" we are to listen to, then we will be led into the Catholic faith. But there is a "father" if we care to listen to him. His name is Paul and this begins in A.D. 59. I Corinthians 4:15-16, "For though ye have ten thousand instructers in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.
16. Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me."

I am not a follower of Hermas.

197AD - Tertullian (c160-222) ... writes ... "There
is no nation indeed which is not Christian" ...

c. 205AD - Clement of Alexandria (c155-215) ... writes
"The whole world, with Athens and Greece, has already
become the domain of the Word."

c. 310 - Eusebius of Caesarea (c265-339) writes ...
""The doctrine of the Savious
has irradiated the whole Oikumene
(whole inhabited earth)"

378 - Jerome (c345-419) writes: "From India to Britian, all
nations resound with the death and resurrection of CHrist".
estimates 1.9 million Christians to have been marytred
since AD33 (out of 120 million Christians). ...

etc.

I’ll not comment on all, but one, for I depend on His Word and not that of the so-called Fathers.

Tertullian's is the most ridicules and untruthful statement. God has only one nation and it is Israel, and it was never Christian, and will never be. They will receive Messiah. Paul said before Tertullian, in Colossians 1:6 we discussed before, all the world had "heard" the truth. Just as I don't believe there are any "Christian churches", but there are Christians that belong to various churches. Surely in Tertullian's day all European nations were not Christian, nor was Asia. Just about all in Asia had left the gospel of Paul. There has never been a nation that has been or will be all Christians. We are brought individually into His "Body Church".

What Tertullian says smacks of "universalism". With respect to you, I must reject this.

 

[skypair]

In my Wednesday night series preaching through the book of Matthew, we were in Matthew 24 tonight, and because of the content of the chapter, I couldn't help but devote the entire sermon to giving an accurate chronology of the book of Revelation and demolishing the pre-tribulation rapture theory. Here is the link to the sermon:

http://www.faithful wordbaptist. org/page5. html

Can any pre-tribber sit through the entire sermon and still believe in the pre-tribulation rapture? I don't see how it could be any clearer.

Sincerely,

Pastor Steven L Anderson
Faithful Word Baptist Church
www.faithfulwordbap tist.org

Musta preached out of the Old Testament -- cause that's where the postrib resurrection is found. :sleep:

skypair

 

[Ed Edwards]

To my attempt to show century after century (well
for the 1st, 2ed, 3rd, & 4th centuries anyway) that
the prophecy of Matthew 24:14 was fulfilled in
each century, Brother Ituttut sez:

//I’ll not comment on all, but one, for I depend
on His Word and not that of the so-called Fathers.//

Interesting non sequitur.
How do we know the FULLFILLMENT of the
prophecies of Christ if we don't listen to history?
(Some say 'history' stands for God: 'His story'.)

 

[ituttut]

To my attempt to show century after century (well
for the 1st, 2ed, 3rd, & 4th centuries anyway) that
the prophecy of Matthew 24:14 was fulfilled in
each century, Brother Ituttut sez:

//I’ll not comment on all, but one, for I depend
on His Word and not that of the so-called Fathers.//

Interesting non sequitur.
How do we know the FULLFILLMENT of the
prophecies of Christ if we don't listen to history?
(Some say 'history' stands for God: 'His story'.)

The Word, Jesus Christ did come to fulfill prophecy. But His Word tells us God "hid" from man His purpose. God "hid" Damascus Road, it not being prophesied. Not until after Damascus Road can we find justification through faith, or the Body of Christ Church, and of course other unknown things "hidden" in Him.

Can you stop at Acts 8, then jump to Hebrews and say you knew you could be justified through faith, without a work, which all before had to do to please God? Can you find the "Body of Christ" from the beginning until you run into Romans? It goes on as we search His Word finding what before was never before known as we listen to the gospel Christ Jesus from heaven gave to Paul.

 

[ituttut]

To my attempt to show century after century (well
for the 1st, 2ed, 3rd, & 4th centuries anyway) that
the prophecy of Matthew 24:14 was fulfilled in
each century, Brother Ituttut sez:

//I’ll not comment on all, but one, for I depend
on His Word and not that of the so-called Fathers.//

Interesting non sequitur.
How do we know the FULLFILLMENT of the
prophecies of Christ if we don't listen to history?
(Some say 'history' stands for God: 'His story'.)

I see my friend Matthew 24:14 was not directly addressed. "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come." We see there is no time frame given other than immediately after this "kingdom gospel" is preached the end will come, and this gospel will be preached by the Jew, and not a Gentile. This tells us this cannot possibly be the gospel that Christ Jesus from heaven gave to Paul to preach for Paul says he will go to the Gentile and they will hear.

And the gospel of the "Kingdom Church" will be preached to all the world. To whom did Jesus Christ give the "great commission" to preach to the world. His Apostles were given that authority as shown in Matthew 10:5-14; Luke 10:1-11 where more Jewish disciples are sent with the circumcised gospel, to those of Israel. Then to Matthew 24:18-20, and on to Mark 16:15-18; Luke 24:46-49, and Acts 2:38.

All this is the gospel of first to the Jew, and then to the Gentile. The Apostles never got out of Jerusalem, and this "Kingdom Church" gospel was never preached to a Gentile, as Acts 10 reveals. When Christ Jesus chose Paul to be the Apostle to the Gentile and the Jew, the gospel that was given to Peter of "repent and be baptized for the remission of sins" for the "kingdom is at hand" was now limited to only those of the "circumcision". Jerusalem, and the Temple are no more to day, and God is not speaking to them. The Apostles shook hands with Paul and Barnabas and said they would not preach the "circumcision gospel" to the Gentile. I believe them, I believe Christ Jesus from heaven, and I believe Paul, for he says he is my Apostle.

The "great commission" gospel of the "Kingdom Church" will again be preached, but not until the tribulation period, and that is the gospel the 144,000 Jews will be preaching, and it will be preached to the whole world, and the end will come. But today the gospel of justification through faith is preached by the Gentiles to the whole world, and this gospel to the Gentile and the Jew will then be taken up to our Lord Jesus Christ when He catches us up.

 

[mozier]

When does The Rapture occur? Not soon enough.

Come soon, Lord Jesus! But not until my wife and daughters repent and accept you as their saviour. That is the one thing that makes me hope that you hold off just a bit longer :tear: