Very simply put, I have a very hard time pinpointing when the rapture of the saints will take place, Please give bible support for when you think the timing of the rapture is.
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When does the rapture take place?
- Thread starter Jordan Kurecki
- Start date
It is the last day.jn6
39 `And this is the will of the Father who sent me, that all that He hath given to me I may not lose of it, but may raise it up in the last day;
40 and this is the will of Him who sent me, that every one who is beholding the Son, and is believing in him, may have life age-during, and I will raise him up in the last day.'
thisnumbersdisconnected
New Member
We do not know "when," we can only be assured it takes place at least seven years before the Second Coming of Christ, when He sets foot on Mt. Olivet (Mount of Olives) as prophesied in Zechariah 14:14. It is "at least" seven years because the Rapture will occur prior to the beginning of the Tribulation, but it doesn't have to happen as the Tribulation begins. It could be as much as a few years before, but more likely not more than a year or two.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
When the seventh and last trumpet sounds!
thisnumbersdisconnected
New Member
I'd point out that is at the end of the Tribulation, and the rapture takes place before the Tribulation, but that would probably just start an argument.
:smilewinkgrin:
Readers of the BB.
Only the Father knows the time - not even Christ knows if one takes that Scripture as literal.
Because it is a secret, and waits upon the statement by the Father of completion of the place Christ is preparing for the redeemed, then it follows that we are not given to know the exact timing.
We have been given certain indicators that Christ will return, and these have been as active in our day as they were at the time of the apostles, but the level or degree in the difference is in these items:
1) Never before was the destruction as pictured in the Scriptures been actually capable of being taken as literal. The atomic means of destruction was pretty much unknown pre-WWII.
2) Never before was the media "world wide" and "world embraced." Before media was often a localized or stretching perhaps to a certain geographic area such as Europe. But sense basically WWI the world events capture more attention of more of the populace each year. Pre - JFK assassination the TV news was second hand to the newspaper industry. Post assassination, the media outlets have taken greater authority over the dissemination of what they regard the truth.
3) Never before has the rise and alignment of nations and a call for a "new world order" been close to an actuality. A "new world order" without the conquering of war (such done by Napoleon and Hitler) but a historically specific and different movement by governments to align. Alignment not by geographical or by "family" (such as the Pre-WWI when nearly every European nation ruling family was related to another nation's ruling family).
4) Never before has the "security" of commerce been under such mean threat which is pushing for some identity program in which "hackers" will be unable to thwart - such in my humble opinion may actually lead to the mark of the beast, for without the mark a person cannot engage in commerce.
5) Never before has there been a world wide whole sale embracing of cross doctrinal groups in which emotionalism and charisma are essential in the bonding. Such will (in my opinion) continue and eventually lead to some of the evil characters so prominent in the Revelation.
6) Never before was there a literal sociopolitical Israel that was in control of Jerusalem. Before WWI, many held that the church replaced Israel, and would eventually conquer the world and usher in the kingdom age. A popular song in the church reflects this thinking: "For the darkness will turn to the dawning, and the dawning to noon day bright. And Christ great kingdom shall come on earth, the kingdom of love and light." What WWI demolished of that thinking WWII validated that such thinking is just not accurate. That such thinking continues in some manner is (in my opinion) a ignoring of both the history of current (last 100+ years) and literal reading of Scriptures.
7) Never before is the technological advance so rapid. This advance will (in my opinion) one day lead to even a rock being able to speak.
There are other items, but you will be able to see by these the intention.2) Never before was the media "world wide" and "world embraced." Before media was often a localized or stretching perhaps to a certain geographic area such as Europe. But sense basically WWI the world events capture more attention of more of the populace each year. Pre - JFK assassination the TV news was second hand to the newspaper industry. Post assassination, the media outlets have taken greater authority over the dissemination of what they regard the truth.
3) Never before has the rise and alignment of nations and a call for a "new world order" been close to an actuality. A "new world order" without the conquering of war (such done by Napoleon and Hitler) but a historically specific and different movement by governments to align. Alignment not by geographical or by "family" (such as the Pre-WWI when nearly every European nation ruling family was related to another nation's ruling family).
4) Never before has the "security" of commerce been under such mean threat which is pushing for some identity program in which "hackers" will be unable to thwart - such in my humble opinion may actually lead to the mark of the beast, for without the mark a person cannot engage in commerce.
5) Never before has there been a world wide whole sale embracing of cross doctrinal groups in which emotionalism and charisma are essential in the bonding. Such will (in my opinion) continue and eventually lead to some of the evil characters so prominent in the Revelation.
6) Never before was there a literal sociopolitical Israel that was in control of Jerusalem. Before WWI, many held that the church replaced Israel, and would eventually conquer the world and usher in the kingdom age. A popular song in the church reflects this thinking: "For the darkness will turn to the dawning, and the dawning to noon day bright. And Christ great kingdom shall come on earth, the kingdom of love and light." What WWI demolished of that thinking WWII validated that such thinking is just not accurate. That such thinking continues in some manner is (in my opinion) a ignoring of both the history of current (last 100+ years) and literal reading of Scriptures.
7) Never before is the technological advance so rapid. This advance will (in my opinion) one day lead to even a rock being able to speak.
Ultimately, I suggest that one does not put a priority (as was done in the past by some who sold everything and went to the hill top to wait) on trying to date a rapture, but use the current events as a cue to look up.
Discouraged folks look down, and hopeful people look up.
Jesus said, "When you see the events, Look UP! Your redemption draws nigh (near)."
Do not be weary in doing and especially "well doing." Look up.
Christ will return, at a time when folks say "peace and safety."
Christ will return, when folks mock saying, "We have heard all this since our fathers slept."
Christ will return, when folks are so consumed in commerce they don't care and actually rejoice that those who would stand rebuking sin are no longer around.
Christ will return, when - I don't know, neither did Christ.
Look up. Hold your head up. Walk in the light as He is in the light.
I would express John's statement:
"He who testifies to these things says, "Yes, I am coming quickly." Amen. Come, Lord Jesus."
I guess I'm not looking for a date, im looking for more pre trib, post trib, mid trib etc... and nobody has yet thus answered my OP with verses, if you believe a pre trib rapture, why? and based upon which scriptures. and Iconoclast the verses you mentioned are about the Resurrection, unless you can prove the rapture and the resurrection are one in the same than I fail to see how that response helps me.
I believe the rapture and the resurrection is the same 1 Cor 15:50-55 matches up perfectly well with 1 Thes 4:14-17 and I believe that will be the last day of this age and the first day of the age to come. See Luke 20:35-37 The same time as this. I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; 2 Tim 4:1 And the appearing of his kingdom is the same as Matt 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Note that is the time of men following Jesus in the regeneration , he having been the firstborn from the dead they will then be born from the dead so that Jesus might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 1 Cor 15:45
John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
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OldRegular
Well-Known Member
And here is a picture of the Return of Jesus Christ:
2 Peter 3:1-14
1. This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:
2. That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:
3. Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4. And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
5. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6. Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
7. But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12. Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13. Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
14. Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
Verses 1 & 2 show this is written to Christians as do the introduction in Chapter 1.
Verse 4 rules out this happening after the 7 year tribulation.
Verse 10 shows this is not the Rapture.
Verses 10-13 are consistent with Revelation 20-22.
beameup
Member
You won't find any, as the Gentile Bride of Christ was a "mystery" according to Paul:
Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is
Christ in you, the hope of glory: Col 1:26-27
However, you can speculate from the dialog between Abraham and God concerning Lot and Sodom.
BTW, there are some that see at least two "raptures" - one before the 70th week of Daniel (for the Bride of Christ),
and the other "pre-wrath" (mid-tribulation). In this senario, the "main harvest" of souls takes place after the Gentile Church is "removed".
the verses in the thes does not say which trump it is. so you cannot conclude that they are one in the same
Thank you for the good post dear brother!
Perhaps you missed:
"We have been given certain indicators that Christ will return, and these have been as active in our day as they were at the time of the apostles, but the level or degree in the difference is in these items:"
So, really, I don't see your post as refuting anything in particular I stated, but gave a great section of Scriptures to actually validate it.
We would disagree on the "rapture." But see what I posted:
"Ultimately, I suggest that one does not put a priority (as was done in the past by some who sold everything and went to the hill top to wait) on trying to date a rapture, but use the current events as a cue to look up."
I do hold that there will be a rapture, just as I do a second coming followed by a literal millennial reign.
Just when the rapture will take place is not given.
Just when the second coming will take place IS given - it follows the seven year tribulation which ends in continual battle(s) leading up to the final battle called Armageddon.
The signs of the end (second coming) are not just occurring during the tribulation, but start and grow in intensity as the return of Christ draws near.
I think we would agree that somewhere along the way a pre-second coming rapture takes place is a hope that has been unfortunately pushed to the front burner; rather than folks being hopefully ready for the actual return of Christ and pleasantly pleased when they are caught up to escape the terrible wrath of God poured out - especially during the later years of the tribulation.
In my opinion, the rapture has become a distraction (which I didn't communicate well in the post) and that the glorious hope of the second coming return of Christ should take precedence.
I would address one area in which a tension may be between us and yet may not, for view the Scriptures clearly teaches both Peter and John were talking about the same time frame.
I surmise that your use of Peter would place "the day of the lord" and the passing away in a fervent heat of the heaven and earth as happening at the same time.
Perhaps, that is a bit incomplete in the balance of what is written elsewhere in the Scriptures - but lets stay with John's writing.
John was very precise in his writing. The Revelation describes of a period of time between the two events.
Peter doesn't, but that doesn't mean that such a time as John states is disavowed or in some manor allegorical, or to apply to another sequence.
Peter does not disprove John, and John does not disprove Peter. They are both correct. These two work perfectly together.
To illustrate, I recall in Isaiah (though I haven't gotten to it yet in my morning devotions) that Isaiah shows a suffering Christ and a ruling Christ. As it reads, it would seem at times one overruns the other.
In fact, were there not some levels of confusion about this very matter during the earthly ministry of Jesus? Did not John the Baptizer express a bit of this when he sent his followers to ask if Jesus was the messiah? What of the Apostles who didn't expect the cross, but thought that Christ was going to establish the throne of David right then?
In hindsight we have a far clearer understanding of what the prophets were stating by both pictures of the messiah.
The same is true as applied to the Peter passage, too, when comparing it to John's writing in the Revelation.
Peter and John went about the same events but from two different writing intents. One stated this and then this. The other stated this, showed what would result of the this, and then the this.
Peter wasn't writing a 20 some chapter dissertation on the end times. He was writing in that verse a brief, in which not all details are innumerate (what is worn, who comes with Christ, the slaughter,...), but the highlights and sequence are accurate. This would be sort of like what the prophets did, by laying it out in tidbits and hitting the highlights.
John, on the other hand, was viewing the whole of the end, in great detail, and specificity records it all (accept that which God said to keep secrete and not write about). John is sort of like us in presenting a step by step clear presentation of what is yet to come, just as we can often see while reading the OT how the prophecy of the earthly ministry of Christ was certainly highlighted as well as His glorious triumphant return.
Therefore, Peter and John are in complete agreement. Peter states Christ will return, the next big event - the fiery end of the heaven and earth. John states Christ will return, details of the result of his return, followed by the fiery end.
Both are accurate, both are specific, and both support the other.
I believe the words of Jesus are the most convincing...
“Just as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be in the days of the Son of Man: 27 People went on eating, drinking, marrying and giving in marriage until the day Noah boarded the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all. 28 It will be the same as it was in the days of Lot: People went on eating, drinking, buying, selling, planting, building. 29 But on the day Lot left Sodom, fire and sulfur rained from heaven and destroyed them all. 30 It will be like that on the day the Son of Man is revealed.
When were the righteous removed in both instances? It was clearly before the start of judgement.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Agedman
Very interesting and insightful response to my post. I guess we will simply have to agree to disagree. I believe that the doctrine of a Rapture of the Church followed by seven years of tribulation is based on a faulty understanding of Daniel's 70th week; an interpretation which I cannot accept.
That being said eschatology is not really my problem with dispensationalism, even though my debate may indicate otherwise. God will bring all things to a close on this earth as he chooses and nothing you or I say will change that.
My beef with dispensationalism is their doctrine of a "parenthesis" Church which I reject completely. Most people I know who are "Rapture Ready", and the woods are full of them around here, have no idea that classic dispensationalism teaches a "parenthesis" Church.
I pray God's blessing on you aged man. We have had some lively debates in the past which I have enjoyed.
Very interesting and insightful response to my post. I guess we will simply have to agree to disagree. I believe that the doctrine of a Rapture of the Church followed by seven years of tribulation is based on a faulty understanding of Daniel's 70th week; an interpretation which I cannot accept.
That being said eschatology is not really my problem with dispensationalism, even though my debate may indicate otherwise. God will bring all things to a close on this earth as he chooses and nothing you or I say will change that.
My beef with dispensationalism is their doctrine of a "parenthesis" Church which I reject completely. Most people I know who are "Rapture Ready", and the woods are full of them around here, have no idea that classic dispensationalism teaches a "parenthesis" Church.
I pray God's blessing on you aged man. We have had some lively debates in the past which I have enjoyed.
I would say the two witnesses in Rev 11 are dead in Christ and for sure it is after the sixth trumpet and before or at the seventh trumpet when they ascend up to heaven in a cloud;
And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect. Heb 11:39,40 And the reverse, also those alive shall not precede the dead in Christ. 1 Thes 4:15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
But all together from the first called of God unto the last.
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 16,17
Therefore comfort one another with these words. 18
I am not sure I understand the whole concept of dispensationalism? And for sure relative to rapture. For I believe in caught up to meet the Lord en route to the earth to establish the throne of his glory.
But I would like to ask you something.
Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things. Acts 15:14-17
Isn't there some concept of dispensation seen in those verses? Also in Romans 11 and even in Eph 1:4-10?
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
he who now letteth? (The Holy Spirit)
The holy spirit is taken out of the world via rapture of the believers, and THEN the antichrist is revelaed starting the 7 year tribulation period.
2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
he who now letteth? (The Holy Spirit)
The holy spirit is taken out of the world via rapture of the believers, and THEN the antichrist is revelaed starting the 7 year tribulation period.
convicted1
Guest
thisnumbersdisconnected
New Member
And that's the real answer, and the man truly deserving the "cee-gar"!!