When is/was/will the 1st seal be opened?

[dad2]

What is your opinion of when the first seal was or will be opened? I was looking again at that today. If it is after the Rapture, then it seems likely that the deception of that white horse rider would also involve what happened to the vanished believers.

Then right after war breaks out. Then then famine and death, and then we see people in heaven who had been killed earlier in the Tribulation, then the heavenly signs, and a silence in heaven for what is about to come next. In the image I used below, they place the Rapture at the seventh seal. I don't think that is right, since I do not believe we are appointed to wrath (Trib is wrath)

So, my impression so far is that that rider appears right after the Rapture. In other words, at the beginning before or at that first seal. Maybe someone has clearer insights here on this.

 

[Two Wings]

What is your opinion of when the first seal was or will be opened? I was looking again at that today. If it is after the Rapture, then it seems likely that the deception of that white horse rider would also involve what happened to the vanished believers.

Then right after war breaks out. Then then famine and death, and then we see people in heaven who had been killed earlier in the Tribulation, then the heavenly signs, and a silence in heaven for what is about to come next. In the image I used below, they place the Rapture at the seventh seal. I don't think that is right, since I do not believe we are appointed to wrath (Trib is wrath)

So, my impression so far is that that rider appears right after the Rapture. In other words, at the beginning before or at that first seal. Maybe someone has clearer insights here on this.

I think we need to be careful in laying in the "not appointed to wrath" of 1 Thess 5 as being exclusively God's wrath. Is there no other source of wrath?

Where were the Hebrews when the plagues were upon Egypt? Were they not in Egypt?

Thousands have been murdered for being Jesus' disciples in the last decade.

I think we are at the 6th seal ... the 7th will be opened at the End of the Tribulation.

NASA ... spaceweather.com ... has information about "Near Earth Objects" ... asteroids passing close to earth. These things have been increasing the last 10 years/so ... and particularly since 2019 ... (like a covid case number graph following another edict by Fauci!). An analysis was made that these things resemble a wave of water ahead of a boat passing through.

That part caught my attention ... could The Morning Star be behind these things increasing their number? Could these NEOs be another in the array of events/things for us to take notice ... in order to recognize "what time is it???"

I think we've made the first 1/2 of the Tribulation to be something vial and excruciating ... as the last 3.5. It's the last 3.5 Jesus said would be the worst ever and ever will be. The first 3.5 is the setup. I think we will soon have the hindsight to recognize we're already IN the tribulation. 15 Sep 20 ... the Abraham Accords. Kushner was just in the news again with another advance of this agreement.

I expect the Jews will resume the regular sacrifice before Rosh Hashanah '22 (25 Sept)

 

[dad2]

I think we need to be careful in laying in the "not appointed to wrath" of 1 Thess 5 as being exclusively God's wrath. Is there no other source of wrath?

Where were the Hebrews when the plagues were upon Egypt? Were they not in Egypt?

Thousands have been murdered for being Jesus' disciples in the last decade.

Looking at the time of the early church, and the book of Thessalonians, we see the end and Rapture were on Paul's mind. So it makes sense to include that period in what was being said.

I think we are at the 6th seal ... the 7th will be opened at the End of the Tribulation.

So when was the rider riding? When was there the great famine where bread cost a day's labour? When was the pestilece, and when did those killed in the great Tribulation as martyrs in heaven cry out? You see, to have been killed in the Trib, it has to have already happened.

NASA ... spaceweather.com ... has information about "Near Earth Objects" ... asteroids passing close to earth. These things have been increasing the last 10 years/so ... and particularly since 2019 ... (like a covid case number graph following another edict by Fauci!). An analysis was made that these things resemble a wave of water ahead of a boat passing through.

What has that to do with a seal?

That part caught my attention ... could The Morning Star be behind these things increasing their number? Could these NEOs be another in the array of events/things for us to take notice ... in order to recognize "what time is it???"

Hey when that great rock falls in to the sea we will know it. When that star falls we also will know, why guess?

I think we've made the first 1/2 of the Tribulation to be something vial and excruciating ... as the last 3.5. It's the last 3.5 Jesus said would be the worst ever and ever will be. The first 3.5 is the setup. I think we will soon have the hindsight to recognize we're already IN the tribulation. 15 Sep 20 ... the Abraham Accords. Kushner was just in the news again with another advance of this agreement.

Hmm, that is a big concept. However, I think it talks about all the Trib as being wrath, so I cannot see us being in that now. All we have is a little taste and shadow of things to come.

I expect the Jews will resume the regular sacrifice before Rosh Hashanah '22 (25 Sept)

. Well, I guess we have over 9 months to see if that one comes true.

 

[Two Wings]

Looking at the time of the early church, and the book of Thessalonians, we see the end and Rapture were on Paul's mind. So it makes sense to include that period in what was being said.

my point is (sorry for failure to include) ... not appointed to God's wrath. The Liar has been after the Church since day one and will continue to do so until he is bound again.

I've departed from the idea of a pre-trib rapture because of the example of the Exodus ... the parable of the Wheat & Tares ... and seeing that those taken FIRST are NOT the followers of Jesus Christ.

So when was the rider riding? When was there the great famine where bread cost a day's labour? When was the pestilece, and when did those killed in the great Tribulation as martyrs in heaven cry out? You see, to have been killed in the Trib, it has to have already happened.

I think the World Wars were those ... in WWII with the allocation of foodstuffs ... it wasn't just in these United States, either.

What has that to do with a seal?

not a thing of which I'm yet aware ... just a follow-on to evidences we can see/detect.

Hey when that great rock falls in to the sea we will know it. When that star falls we also will know, why guess?

because I don't know that these NEOs are as I've pondered. Going about occupying until He comes being occupied with the work He's giving me ... but also ... looking up every now and again. When I looked up a few months ago, I noticed the NEOs. I didn't even know there was a name for these events until then.

Hmm, that is a big concept. However, I think it talks about all the Trib as being wrath, so I cannot see us being in that now. All we have is a little taste and shadow of things to come.

Noted. As I said, though, the only period which is apocalyptic is the last 3.5. The first 3.5 is used to create the one world govt, currency, and religion.

Well, I guess we have over 9 months to see if that one comes true.

Indeed ... I could be all wet, but such is why I stated it's my expectation. I've not declared being a prophet. I know the Temple Institute has located and secured it's 7 red heifers at least two of 'em need to be weaned ... so sometime early next year they'll all be there. A Temple Institute rabbi has acquired the western side of the Mount of Olives where the red heifer sacrifices were made.

This property acquisition happened only this year.

The nascent Sanhedrin blew the shofar on Temple Mount during Rosh Hashanah this year for the first time since 70 AD. A deal with the Waqf (sp?) ... the Jews allowed them to bury an imam in that cemetery outside the east gate. (not on Temple Mount)

Stuff is happening over there in Jerusalem which hasn't happened in this same period of nearly 2000 years.

I fully admit I'll have plenty of which can be told "I didn't expect THAT!" and perhaps the expectation I have isn't accurate; more want to than discerned revelation from scripture and recognizing what is happening in our world at this time ...

but ... it's what has brought me to this board in an internet search about a documentary on Daniel. Daniel, Ezekiel, Isaiah, Amos, Hosea, Revelation ... seeking to understand ... "what time is it?"

 

[dad2]

my point is (sorry for failure to include) ... not appointed to God's wrath. The Liar has been after the Church since day one and will continue to do so until he is bound again.

I've departed from the idea of a pre-trib rapture because of the example of the Exodus ... the parable of the Wheat & Tares ... and seeing that those taken FIRST are NOT the followers of Jesus Christ.

Well, He did take Noah first, and He took Elijah, and Enoch, etc. His Bride is supposed to be ready because she will be taken. After we leave there will still be new wheat growing, and plenty of tares. I am not sure what example in Exodus you are thinking of that relates to the end time Rapture.

I think the World Wars were those ... in WWII with the allocation of foodstuffs ... it wasn't just in these United States, either.

The seals affect the world, so when we see things like a famine so bad that a loaf of bread costs something like $200 ( a days wage) it is safe to say that never happened yet in this world on any large scale.

because I don't know that these NEOs are as I've pondered.

I have no worry about space objects, this planet is under the protection of God. The only time objects are allowed in is when He gives them the green light.

Noted. As I said, though, the only period which is apocalyptic is the last 3.5. The first 3.5 is used to create the one world govt, currency, and religion.

How do you know the first 3 years is for that? Could the financial system be in place before the seven years start? It seems we are close to one being able to come in now at any time. For example if there were wars, say in Taiwan,Ukraine, and Iran/Middle East that wreaked havoc on the world economy and ruined a lot of water and farmland and etc, who is to say that a worldwide system of finance could not come into place in a New York minute? By the way, I noticed in the image in the OP, that war comes right away after the white horse rider and deception. Following war, of course is famine and disease. You would need solid bible support to claim that the financial system must take three and one half years to come to pass.

Indeed ... I could be all wet, but such is why I stated it's my expectation. I've not declared being a prophet. I know the Temple Institute has located and secured it's 7 red heifers at least two of 'em need to be weaned ... so sometime early next year they'll all be there. A Temple Institute rabbi has acquired the western side of the Mount of Olives where the red heifer sacrifices were made.

I hear the same thing, that all is pretty well ready, and could be set up very quickly when the time is right.

This property acquisition happened only this year.

The nascent Sanhedrin blew the shofar on Temple Mount during Rosh Hashanah this year for the first time since 70 AD. A deal with the Waqf (sp?) ... the Jews allowed them to bury an imam in that cemetery outside the east gate. (not on Temple Mount)

Stuff is happening over there in Jerusalem which hasn't happened in this same period of nearly 2000 years.

Weagree that there is something in the air these days that can't be ignored.

I fully admit I'll have plenty of which can be told "I didn't expect THAT!" and perhaps the expectation I have isn't accurate; more want to than discerned revelation from scripture and recognizing what is happening in our world at this time ...

but ... it's what has brought me to this board in an internet search about a documentary on Daniel. Daniel, Ezekiel, Isaiah, Amos, Hosea, Revelation ... seeking to understand ... "what time is it?"

Right, and we are to be ready to meet Him always, it can come any moment. Even if things took some years more before He was ready to come and get us, we should be ready anytime. After all, we could die, and then we will meet Him, so either way it won't be that long!

 

[1689Dave]

What is your opinion of when the first seal was or will be opened? I was looking again at that today. If it is after the Rapture, then it seems likely that the deception of that white horse rider would also involve what happened to the vanished believers.

Then right after war breaks out. Then then famine and death, and then we see people in heaven who had been killed earlier in the Tribulation, then the heavenly signs, and a silence in heaven for what is about to come next. In the image I used below, they place the Rapture at the seventh seal. I don't think that is right, since I do not believe we are appointed to wrath (Trib is wrath)

So, my impression so far is that that rider appears right after the Rapture. In other words, at the beginning before or at that first seal. Maybe someone has clearer insights here on this.

Scripture does not support the "rapture theory" So you need a different starting point. If you look for what the symbols of Revelation represent, instead of looking for the symbols to happen, you can see the seals, vials, and trumpets are the same happenings. And they have been going on all along since and before John wrote the Revelation.

 

[Two Wings]

Well, He did take Noah first, and He took Elijah, and Enoch, etc. His Bride is supposed to be ready because she will be taken. After we leave there will still be new wheat growing, and plenty of tares. I am not sure what example in Exodus you are thinking of that relates to the end time Rapture.

Noah? I could be wrong, but Noah died. Enoch and Elijah haven't yet.

When we are taken (the church, that is) ... that's it. the "tribulation saints" are gleaned because of the work through the pre-trib saints who are still in their corruptible bodies (and that's all who weren't called home individually)

The plagues on Egypt ... being a "type/shadow" of the seals of that period called "Jacob's Troubles" ... the last part of the Tribulation also called The Great Tribulation. God's enemies were not destroyed in Egypt until the Hebrews were removed first ... and effectively immediately prior to the Egyptians' destruction were the Hebrews removed (e.g. raptured)

I understand this will be a similar chronology ... though I doubt there will be the weeks it took the Hebrews to leave Goshen and to actually cross the Red Sea.

The seals affect the world, so when we see things like a famine so bad that a loaf of bread costs something like $200 ( a days wage) it is safe to say that never happened yet in this world on any large scale.

Perhaps ... but that level of poverty has been seen around the world.

I have no worry about space objects, this planet is under the protection of God. The only time objects are allowed in is when He gives them the green light.

I agree. I'm simply suggesting these things we can now detect/track (which those in Daniel's day, for example, couldn't) are created by God and have a purpose. Could it be their purpose is that of an alarm clock?

You would need solid bible support to claim that the financial system must take three and one half years to come to pass.

I may have been unclear ... I'm not saying the one world govt/finance/religion will take 3.5 years to be manifest ... I'm saying they will be manifest DURING that 3.5 years. I think it will "come to pass" pretty quickly. We've been getting hints on it for some time, now. Who had heard of the WEF before covid? I hadn't.

I hear the same thing, that all is pretty well ready, and could be set up very quickly when the time is right.

yessir ... and the time is just about right. The cake is just about ready to be pulled from the oven.

Weagree that there is something in the air these days that can't be ignored.

thumbs up.

His Bride is supposed to be ready because she will be taken.

Right, and we are to be ready to meet Him always, it can come any moment.

I'm no Jewish wedding scholar, but my understanding is the virgins knew the night, they didn't know the moment. You're right, methinks, for individuals we can die at any unforeseen moment.

Jesus COULD have been born at any time prior to His being born; but He wasn't. He was born PRECISELY as it was foretold. Similarly, Jesus COULD Return at any moment, but He won't ... there is prophesy about the timeline we are learning "at the end game." Just as we were told would be. Not the day nor the hour ... but refer to the 4 verses prior to that passage. The season. I think that is literally a specific 3 month window at some point in the future but prior to the start of that 3 month window. I think we've already been given the 12 month window; Rosh Hashanah '26 to RH '27 ... just as the first gen church knew to vacate Jerusalem by 70AD from Jesus' own words during His last departure from the Temple ... in 30AD.

We won't need to "vacate" anything ... no hiding ... no cowering ... but being prepared to receive the Holy Spirit in a much more grandiose way ... preparing the way of the Lord as the Jews thought Messiah would arrive the first time. That "way preparing" is immanent.

 

[Two Wings]

Scripture does not support the "rapture theory"

1 Thess 4:16-17

what is that?

Or do you define the "rapture theory" as something different from everyone else?

 

[dad2]

Scripture does not support the "rapture theory" So you need a different starting point. If you look for what the symbols of Revelation represent, instead of looking for the symbols to happen, you can see the seals, vials, and trumpets are the same happenings. And they have been going on all along since and before John wrote the Revelation.

That is one viewpoint.

 

[1689Dave]

That is one viewpoint.

It's based on the oldest commentary on Revelation ever found. If you learn that viewpoint Revelation will make more sense. It's called the "Recapitulation View".

 

[dad2]

Noah? I could be wrong, but Noah died. Enoch and Elijah haven't yet.

Noah and family were taken up in the waters. Enoch and Elijah were taken up to heaven.

When we are taken (the church, that is) ... that's it. the "tribulation saints" are gleaned because of the work through the pre-trib saints who are still in their corruptible bodies (and that's all who weren't called home individually)

Not sure what that means. All of His people will be Raptured. They won't be here in the Trib to do anything. There will be 2 witnesses, and 144,000 Jews and angels preaching to them. We are gone. Now even if you were correct and the Rapture was mid point in the Tribulation, all the new converts in that time would also be Raptured, leaving us in the same situation.

The plagues on Egypt ... being a "type/shadow" of the seals of that period called "Jacob's Troubles" ..

The plagues were only for the Egyptians if you recall. The Hebrews were protected by the blood of the Lamb. If anything those plagues on the wicked foreshadowed the judgments on the wicked world in the end time. Yes Israel is included because they are part of that wicked world. Only when they get saved will they also be protected.

. the last part of the Tribulation also called The Great Tribulation. God's enemies were not destroyed in Egypt until the Hebrews were removed first ... and effectively immediately prior to the Egyptians' destruction were the Hebrews removed (e.g. raptured)

I understand this will be a similar chronology ... though I doubt there will be the weeks it took the Hebrews to leave Goshen and to actually cross the Red Sea.

The wicked are not killed until Jesus returns to Judge nations. The new believers in the final part of the Tribulation will see things (if they live) no one else has ever seen. Yet they shall be as Daniel says, 'holpen with a little help'. Probably one reason all of them will not be killed is because of the protection of God. The witnesses will be doing miracles selectively clobbering the wicked. Calling down a fire strike from heaven any time they feel like it. Changing the weather totally any time they feel a need. Etc.The locusts from the pit, remember only hurt the wicked as well. The plague of deadly sores on those who take the mark are, obviously, also on the wicked only. Etc.

Perhaps ... but that level of poverty has been seen around the world.

The verse before the one talking about great famine makes it clear the context is the world rather than selective poor nations.

4 And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.

I agree. I'm simply suggesting these things we can now detect/track (which those in Daniel's day, for example, couldn't) are created by God and have a purpose. Could it be their purpose is that of an alarm clock?

Sounds good.

I may have been unclear ... I'm not saying the one world govt/finance/religion will take 3.5 years to be manifest ... I'm saying they will be manifest DURING that 3.5 years. I think it will "come to pass" pretty quickly. We've been getting hints on it for some time, now. Who had heard of the WEF before covid? I hadn't.

Since it is my understanding that the taking away into the air of believers is before the wrath, I guess it is not a real concern as to how long after the Rapture the wicked take to get it together. I agree it will be fast. Why? Because the one behind it all is cast to earth and knows his clock is ticking and he has to move fast.

I'm no Jewish wedding scholar, but my understanding is the virgins knew the night, they didn't know the moment. You're right, methinks, for individuals we can die at any unforeseen moment.

Not only that, but the foolish virgins were not saved. They would not be invited to the wedding sipper of the Lamb. They had no oil of the spirit. Regardless of where or why they were running around in freaky mode it made no difference. All that matters is that we are saved believers. Possibly, we could relate that to the nominal believer churches.

Jesus COULD have been born at any time prior to His being born; but He wasn't. He was born PRECISELY as it was foretold. Similarly, Jesus COULD Return at any moment, but He won't ... there is prophesy about the timeline we are learning "at the end game." Just as we were told would be. Not the day nor the hour ... but refer to the 4 verses prior to that passage. The season. I think that is literally a specific 3 month window at some point in the future but prior to the start of that 3 month window. I think we've already been given the 12 month window; Rosh Hashanah '26 to RH '27 ... just as the first gen church knew to vacate Jerusalem by 70AD from Jesus' own words during His last departure from the Temple ... in 30AD.

The time that Jesus told people in Jerusalem to flee was after the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel was set up. That was not 70 AD.
Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

That one spoken of by Daniel is also on a clock. The days and months and years are given. That was not 70AD.

We won't need to "vacate" anything ... no hiding ... no cowering ... but being prepared to receive the Holy Spirit in a much more grandiose way ... preparing the way of the Lord as the Jews thought Messiah would arrive the first time. That "way preparing" is immanent.

WE will not be here or in Jerusalem, that will be the Jews at the time. They are the ones who that warning to flee when they see the abomination is for.

 

[dad2]

It's based on the oldest commentary on Revelation ever found. If you learn that viewpoint Revelation will make more sense. It's called the "Recapitulation View".

No point arguing about the Rapture. We are just about to the point where we will all find out anyhow it is starting to look like.

 

[utilyan]

Matthew 6
34Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.

Of course since Jesus said it, could he really be trusted ? shouldn't we look for a loophole elsewhere?

 

[1689Dave]

Noah and family were taken up in the waters. Enoch and Elijah were taken up to heaven.

Not sure what that means. All of His people will be Raptured. They won't be here in the Trib to do anything. There will be 2 witnesses, and 144,000 Jews and angels preaching to them. We are gone. Now even if you were correct and the Rapture was mid point in the Tribulation, all the new converts in that time would also be Raptured, leaving us in the same situation.
The plagues were only for the Egyptians if you recall. The Hebrews were protected by the blood of the Lamb. If anything those plagues on the wicked foreshadowed the judgments on the wicked world in the end time. Yes Israel is included because they are part of that wicked world. Only when they get saved will they also be protected.


The wicked are not killed until Jesus returns to Judge nations. The new believers in the final part of the Tribulation will see things (if they live) no one else has ever seen. Yet they shall be as Daniel says, 'holpen with a little help'. Probably one reason all of them will not be killed is because of the protection of God. The witnesses will be doing miracles selectively clobbering the wicked. Calling down a fire strike from heaven any time they feel like it. Changing the weather totally any time they feel a need. Etc.The locusts from the pit, remember only hurt the wicked as well. The plague of deadly sores on those who take the mark are, obviously, also on the wicked only. Etc.


The verse before the one talking about great famine makes it clear the context is the world rather than selective poor nations.

4 And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.



Sounds good.


Since it is my understanding that the taking away into the air of believers is before the wrath, I guess it is not a real concern as to how long after the Rapture the wicked take to get it together. I agree it will be fast. Why? Because the one behind it all is cast to earth and knows his clock is ticking and he has to move fast.


Not only that, but the foolish virgins were not saved. They would not be invited to the wedding sipper of the Lamb. They had no oil of the spirit. Regardless of where or why they were running around in freaky mode it made no difference. All that matters is that we are saved believers. Possibly, we could relate that to the nominal believer churches.


The time that Jesus told people in Jerusalem to flee was after the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel was set up. That was not 70 AD.
Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

That one spoken of by Daniel is also on a clock. The days and months and years are given. That was not 70AD.

WE will not be here or in Jerusalem, that will be the Jews at the time. They are the ones who that warning to flee when they see the abomination is for.

The really big problem with your plan is that Christ abolished circumcision on the cross. Circumcision, not blood, made one a physical Jew or physical member of Israel. Today's State of Israel or the Jews are not Biblical Israel or biblical Jews.

 

[1689Dave]

No point arguing about the Rapture. We are just about to the point where we will all find out anyhow it is starting to look like.

It's a false doctrine that even those who teach it say they cannot prove.

 

[kyredneck]

We are just about to the point

...how many times over the centuries has this been said?

 

[dad2]

Matthew 6
34Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.

Of course since Jesus said it, could he really be trusted ? shouldn't we look for a loophole elsewhere?

Of course we are not to worry. However studying what He said is great.

 

[dad2]

The really big problem with your plan is that Christ abolished circumcision on the cross. Circumcision, not blood, made one a physical Jew or physical member of Israel. Today's State of Israel or the Jews are not Biblical Israel or biblical Jews.

Why would we care about having a body part modified?

 

[dad2]

It's a false doctrine that even those who teach it say they cannot prove.

Says you. Millions disagree. Me too.

 

[dad2]

...how many times over the centuries has this been said?

Since the fathers fell asleep?