When Jesus cleared the Temple

[DHK]

Originally posted by jacob62:
It is Jesus in me.Your posts reveal your heart friend.When you cannot accept that the things Jesus did,was for our example,for all time,that we are to imitate,it reveals a hard heart.I do not claim to be able to do every thing he did,YET,with His faith I will.I also have a hard heart on many things.

So, once your heart is not hard you can do the things that Jesus did:
You can walk on water,
Calm the seas.
Raise the dead.
Feed 5,000 with a couple of fish and a few loaves of bread.
turn water into wine.
heal people of leprosy and other diseases, etc.

When you can do these miracles, call me. I want to see a demonstration.
You say I have a hard heart. Again, you play the part of God. Who are you to play God? Do you have omniscience?

The Holy Spirit will reveal things to us,and they will agree with scripture.If you think all denominations are going to come together one day,then that means some serious things are wrong with each,and will have to be recinded.

Yes, I believe this will happen. Do you? Will you be a part if this church? It will be the great harlot of church of the antichrist existing during the Tribulation Period. The antichrist and False Prophet will be working together as the head of it. When this happens, I won't be here.

Or,if you think all denominations will become Baptist,that is very prideful.

I never suggested as much. But I do believe that the Baptists, in particular the IFB have doctrine that is closest to what the Bible teaches. If I didn't believe that I wouldn't be IFB.

Or,you think each denomination is an intregal part of the body,which is wrong for NONE can agree.

Different denominations exist because of disagreement in doctrine. That is a given. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure that out. We differ from many of the Protestant religions because they baptize infants or they don't baptize by immersion. That is just one difference among many. Many of them don't even preach the gospel, the way of salvation. Amos says "How can two walk together unless they be agreed."

Higher education brings pride,God raises the humble,and brings the prideful low."For although they knew God,they neither glorified him as God,nor gave thanks to him,but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened......

Higher education can bring pride, but doesn't have to. Paul was probably the most highly educated person of his lifetime. The prophet Isaiah was highly educated, as was the prophet Daniel. In fact all of the Apostles had a good education.

The Bible abhors ignorance. Ignorance is not humility. In fact some people take pride in their ignorance. Pitiful isn't it? Education is a tool to a greater understanding to the truths of the Word of God. Again, you have taken another verse out of its context and used it for your own pre-conceived ideas.
DHK

 

[jacob62]

They counted their "education"as dung,as I do yours,and mine.If you humble your self,God will show you understanding,then you can burn your degrees and diplomas.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by jacob62:
They counted their "education"as dung,as I do yours,and mine.If you humble your self,God will show you understanding,then you can burn your degrees and diplomas.

#1. This shows your lack of knowledge of the Word of God, and it is a personal attack.
"Ye do err not knowing the Scriptures neither the power of God."
#2. Paul, neither any of the others, said this.
#3. They all used their education for the glory of God.

 

[av1611jim]

jacob62;

And if YOU would humble YOURSELF you would quit playing at humility.

Brother DHK;

Why do you continue with this looney tune?


In HIS service;
Jim

 

[jacob62]

Wasn't Luke a doctor?Matthew a tax collector?I am nothing,but I can read.You all are experienced pastors and missionaries,fully equiped for spreading the Gospel and feeding the sheep.Can you cast out devils,heal the sick,walk on water?I dont think so,but your believers right?And calling me a looney tune is a personal attack,but Im not crying,I think its funny.If this is God in me,you wont ruffle my feathers,I guess that makes me Daffy lol

 

[here now]

Originally posted by DHK:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by jacob62:
DHK,I pray the Holy Spirit will reveal it to you someday because that is how we get understanding,not by study but by revelation from God.Amen

This is gnosticism. You claim to have a higher revelation than the Word of God.
DHK </font>[/QUOTE]Where did you get that he claims to have a higher revelation than the Word of God.
The Bible is revealed by God through the Holy Spirit.

 

[MEE]

Originally posted by av1611jim:
jacob62;

And if YOU would humble YOURSELF you would quit playing at humility.

Brother DHK;

Why do you continue with this looney tune?


In HIS service;
Jim

Jim, would you be so quick to 'judge' jacob if you hadn't read his profile?...same question for DHK!

"Looney tune" wasn't that a bit too much?... but then I've been called worse by the 'supposedly' well educated, on this board. So, that being said, jacob don't feel too bad.

MEE

 

[jacob62]

For av1611jim: DHK says that you are ignorant for calling me a name, because that is the last resort in an argument. You might want to ask him to pray for you AMEN!

 

[music4Him]

Back on the topic............

Originally posted by jacob62:
In Matt 21:12-13; Mark 11:12-18; Luke 19:45-46,Jesus clears the temple of money changers and dove sellers. How does this scripture apply to us today as we keep in mind Christ is the same today,yesterday,and tomorrow? Why did He do it and could this have anything to do with selling books and music today? I invite your opinions with scriptural backing.

How does this scripture apply to us today as we keep in mind Christ is the same today,yesterday,and tomorrow? We shouldn't be selling in the temple.

Why did He do it and could this have anything to do with selling books and music today?
When reading this scripture he was upset because these greedy people were selling in the temple and he said they turned it into a den of theives (give me the idea they wern't dealing honestly) Does this happen in churchs that allow book selling and tape....you bet in some cases!

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by music4Him:
How does this scripture apply to us today as we keep in mind Christ is the same today,yesterday,and tomorrow?

We shouldn't be selling in the temple.

The Temple was destroyed in 70 A.D. by Titus, and there hasn't been one since. So for the last 1965 years, no one has been selling in the Temple. What's your beef?

Why did He do it and could this have anything to do with selling books and music today?

When reading this scripture he was upset because these greedy people were selling in the temple and he said they turned it into a den of theives (give me the idea they wern't dealing honestly) Does this happen in churchs that allow book selling and tape....you bet in some cases!

Does this happen today. No. Simple answer--There is no Temple today. It was destroyed in 70 A.D.
That is not to say that there are abuses in church buildings today; it simply to say that you cannot justify your opinion with this Scripture. It has no bearing on your ideas or beliefs. You are taking Scripture out of context to try and support a belief that you must support with other Scripture, not this one. The Temple has nothing to do with church buildings, period.

A better question is simply to ask: Is it right or wrong to sell Bibles, music cd's and other related materials in church buildings? Why or why not. Support your answers with Scripture. I don't believe that you can use the Scipture of Jesus cleansing the Temple as a valid proof-text for jutifying your argument--plain and simple. Find another way if you think you have a valid argument.

Personally when it comes right down to it is:
#1. Simply a matter of opinion.
#2. A matter of the soul liberty of the local church. If a church decides that they want to sell literature in their church building there is not a one of you on this board that has the right to judge that church for doing so. God gave the authority to the local church for making such decisions. If you don't like it, find another church. The decision is not yours. The decision belongs to the church that you attend.
DHK

 

[tamborine lady]

BTW, DHK, that story about "go thou and do likewise" has nothing whatsoever with the way God leads us!! It's just an attempt to lead us down a rabbit trail!!

Proverbs 16-18 Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.
19 Better it is to be of an humble spirit with the lowly, than to divide the spoil with the proud.

Selah,

Tam

 

[DHK]

It's an example of people taking Scripture out of context to prove their points, or find God's will, as the case may be.

Example:
"Whoso finds a wife finds a good "thing." (Proverbs)
"But seek ye first the kingdom of God and all these "things" shall be added unto you." (Mat.6:33)
--Mormon justification of polygamy.
You can make the Bible say anything you want to.

 

[jacob62]

Matt 24:35 "Heaven and earth will pass away,but my words will never pass away."then-Mark 11:17"Is it not written:"'My house will be called a house of prayer for all nations'? But you have made it 'a den of robbers.'Notice "for all nations".Were the Jews actively spreading their message to all nations? Or is it refering to Jesus' command to spread the Gospel to "all nations"?The latter seems more likely because salvation would now include the Gentiles or"all nations".

 

[TexasSky]

I am really very curious. How many of you attend churches where they sell things in your sanctuary?

Do you think of your education buildings in the same way you do your worship centers?

Do you ever "require" people in your church to buy something from your church?

Do you rip people off when you sell items in the church foyer? Or have any other reason to believe the title of "robbers" applies to you?

 

[DHK]

Mark 11:17 And he taught, saying unto them, Is it not written, My house shall be called of all nations the house of prayer? but ye have made it a den of thieves.

The prophecy cited is a combination of Isa 56:7 and Jer 7:11.

Isaiah 56:7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.

Jeremiah 7:11 Is this house, which is called by my name, become a den of robbers in your eyes? Behold, even I have seen it, saith the LORD.

The "all nations" refers to the verse in Isaiah which Jesus was quoting.
The Scripture is prophetic. It is speaking of a time yet to come. Look at some of the other verses in the same chapter.

Isaiah 56:5 Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.

This will not happen until the Millennial Kingdom, the thousand year reign of Christ will take place. That is what the "all nations" refers to. That is when the Temple will reappear, but not until then.
DHK

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by TexasSky:
I am really very curious. How many of you attend churches where they sell things in your sanctuary?

I have been in churches that do. Our church does on occasion, but not regularly.

Do you think of your education buildings in the same way you do your worship centers?

In our church building there is no such thing as a "worship center." Although there is some worship in the service, our services center around the preaching of the Word of God. Preaching is instructional. There is more instruction then worship. True worship is when one gets alone with God in their own room and prays to God alone, allowing also God to speak to him through his Word. "Sanctuaries" are where birds are kept.

Do you ever "require" people in your church to buy something from your church?

Of course not. If someone wants to buy something, it is always of their own free will. If they want to buy a good Bible, they can sometimes buy it here, or go to another book store and buy it there. We have freedom in this nation. Sometimes you miss out on a blessing when a missionary passes through offering some good music, or a good biography.

Do you rip people off when you sell items in the church foyer? Or have any other reason to believe the title of "robbers" applies to you?

I have never seen anyone ripped off in a church that I have been at. If you can't afford a certain item then don't buy it. You are not obligated. How can you be ripped off? That thought is ludicrous. You can't be ripped off if you always have the choice to refuse to buy the purchase. The question doesn't make sense.
Your question is like asking: Do you feel forced to watching R-rated movies just because they are on television. You do have a choice to turn off the TV! You do have a choice not to buy things that are too expensive for you to buy!
DHK

 

[jacob62]

If this "house of prayer for all nations"is in Millennial Kingdom,Satan will be in the pit,so he cannot deceive the nations.He will not be able to make "the house of prayer for all nations" into a den of robbers.All nations must therefore be a time when everyone is included,and Satan can still deceive.Thus-from the time Jesus cleaned the temple(all Gentiles invited)---to the time of the Millennial Kingdom(no Satan)

 

[TexasSky]

DHK,

I've seen many churches sell items outside the sanctuary, I've really never been in one that sold anything inside the sanctuary. The process surprises me.

I think you're talking semantics over the "worship center." Whether you call the place you fellowship and listen to preaching and sing a living room, a sanctuary or a worship center, there is a place where the people of a church gather to listen to a pastor, and that place is usually treated with more reverence than .. say.. the church library.

Regarding the question about requirement. The money changers at the temple in Jerusalem DID require their people to purchase things from them. They had to make their sacrifices, and they were told that they HAD to use the sacrificial animals that were sold at the temple, and those were sold at an inflated price.

I have not been a member of a church that rips people off, but I have seen it. There are places that sell "pieces of the cross of Christ," in their foyers, knowing full well that they are selling rejects from the local lumber yard. There are places that insist if someone participate in their particular bible study they purchase a particular book, at a price set by that church, and meant to "include a processing fee." There is a large non-denominational-bible-church in our city that goes to people and tells them they must be baptized to be saved, and they cannot be baptized if they don't write a check to the church for at least $200.00. That same church has a habit of going to its members and saying things like, "You are a programer, and God told us that you need to donate 400 hours of computer programming to the church or you should not be allowed to take communion."

I've seen it in lesser forms though. I actually saw someone turned away from a church nursery because they used cloth diapers instead of pampers, and the church nursery refused that child, but the church sanctuary forbade children.
(That was, unfortunately, a Baptist church.)

How many youth do churches lose because "everyone in the youth group" is doing a project that requires a fee, and the kids who can't afford the fee are suddenly outcasts?

There are churches out there that actually tell their members, "This is what you need to tithe."

So yes, you can easily be "ripped" off by a church, if the church isn't a God fearing church.

 

[DHK]

Christ to those of "His day" that they had made it a den of thieves. There is no indication that it will be made a den of thieves in the Millennial Kingdom, especially since Christ Himself will be ruling with a rod of iron. He cleansed the Temple 2,000 years ago; it will not need such a cleansing in the Millennial Kingdom.
DHK

 

[tamborine lady]

(quote)
In our church building there is no such thing as a "worship center." Although there is some worship in the service, our services center around the preaching of the Word of God. Preaching is instructional. There is more instruction then worship. True worship is when one gets alone with God in their own room and prays to God alone, allowing also God to speak to him through his Word. "Sanctuaries" are where birds are kept

Oh bother!!



Tam