When Jesus cleared the Temple

[DHK]

Originally posted by TexasSky:
DHK,

I've seen many churches sell items outside the sanctuary, I've really never been in one that sold anything inside the sanctuary. The process surprises me.

I think you're talking semantics over the "worship center." Whether you call the place you fellowship and listen to preaching and sing a living room, a sanctuary or a worship center, there is a place where the people of a church gather to listen to a pastor, and that place is usually treated with more reverence than .. say.. the church library.

I know of a church that meets in a library.

Regarding the question about requirement. The money changers at the temple in Jerusalem DID require their people to purchase things from them. They had to make their sacrifices, and they were told that they HAD to use the sacrificial animals that were sold at the temple, and those were sold at an inflated price.

That is what was done at the Temple. It is Old Testament. It was destroyed in 70 A.D. How many churches do you know use sacrificial animals today? If you are going to be literal about the Temple then be consistent and be literal about the animals as well. How many churches sacrifice animals today?

I have not been a member of a church that rips people off, but I have seen it. There are places that sell "pieces of the cross of Christ," in their foyers, knowing full well that they are selling rejects from the local lumber yard. There are places that insist if someone participate in their particular bible study they purchase a particular book, at a price set by that church, and meant to "include a processing fee." There is a large non-denominational-bible-church in our city that goes to people and tells them they must be baptized to be saved, and they cannot be baptized if they don't write a check to the church for at least $200.00. That same church has a habit of going to its members and saying things like, "You are a programer, and God told us that you need to donate 400 hours of computer programming to the church or you should not be allowed to take communion."

#1. That doesn't sound non-denominational, it sounds like it is Catholic.
#2. It is a heretical church that practices and teaches baptismal regeneration. It is a false gospel. Have nothing to do with it. We are supposed to be discussing here Christian denominations. By your description I wouldn't count that one as "Christian." It sounds more like a cult.
#3. When you see such obvious error in a church, one ought to know enough to stay away from it.

I've seen it in lesser forms though. I actually saw someone turned away from a church nursery because they used cloth diapers instead of pampers, and the church nursery refused that child, but the church sanctuary forbade children.
(That was, unfortunately, a Baptist church.)

That is unfortunate. As I posted before there are some unfortunate things that happen in Baptist churches. If you ever find a perfect church, don't join it; it won't be perfect anymore.

How many youth do churches lose because "everyone in the youth group" is doing a project that requires a fee, and the kids who can't afford the fee are suddenly outcasts?

I think you are making too much fuss over this one. Although it happens to some degree almost everywhere. It happens around here. An example: The youth decides to go bowling. Not everyone can always afford bowling. There will always be some that will have to sit out. That can't always be helped. It happens. The youth try their hardest to vary their activities in such a way as to include everyone.

There are churches out there that actually tell their members, "This is what you need to tithe."

There are churches that believe in tithing and God bless them for it. If you belong to such a church, and don't agree with tithing, then quietly depart without making a fuss about it, and find a church that you can agree with. That is soul liberty.

So yes, you can easily be "ripped" off by a church, if the church isn't a God fearing church.

Nope, haven't seen anywhere yet. Only in the one "cult" that you pointe out. But I don't attend cultish churches. I am a Baptist.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by tamborine lady:

(quote)
In our church building there is no such thing as a "worship center." Although there is some worship in the service, our services center around the preaching of the Word of God. Preaching is instructional. There is more instruction then worship. True worship is when one gets alone with God in their own room and prays to God alone, allowing also God to speak to him through his Word. "Sanctuaries" are where birds are kept

Oh bother!!



Tam

Do a Bible study Tam, on the church, worship and doctrine; and find out where the emphasis is.

 

[MEE]

Originally posted by tamborine lady:

(quote)
In our church building there is no such thing as a "worship center." Although there is some worship in the service, our services center around the preaching of the Word of God. Preaching is instructional. There is more instruction then worship. True worship is when one gets alone with God in their own room and prays to God alone, allowing also God to speak to him through his Word. "Sanctuaries" are where birds are kept

Oh bother!!



Tam

Ditto Tam, ditto! I think someone has been on the 'puter' too long today.

Time for a snooze?

MEE

 

[jacob62]

Originally posted by DHK:
Christ to those of "His day" that they had made it a den of thieves. There is no indication that it will be made a den of thieves in the Millennial Kingdom, especially since Christ Himself will be ruling with a rod of iron. He cleansed the Temple 2,000 years ago; it will not need such a cleansing in the Millennial Kingdom.
DHK

"for all nations"(Gentiles invited)is a timeline from Jesus until the end of the 1000 year reign at least."a den of robbers "timeline can go from before Jesus up to the 1000 year reign(Satan will be cast to the pit at the start)Put together,"My house will be called a house of prayer for all nations ,But you made it a den of robbers",you have a timeline from Jesus til the 1000 year reign.That clearly includes today.

 

[music4Him]

Originally posted by DHK:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by music4Him:
How does this scripture apply to us today as we keep in mind Christ is the same today,yesterday,and tomorrow?

We shouldn't be selling in the temple.

The Temple was destroyed in 70 A.D. by Titus, and there hasn't been one since. So for the last 1965 years, no one has been selling in the Temple. What's your beef?

Why did He do it and could this have anything to do with selling books and music today?

When reading this scripture he was upset because these greedy people were selling in the temple and he said they turned it into a den of theives (give me the idea they wern't dealing honestly) Does this happen in churchs that allow book selling and tape....you bet in some cases!

Does this happen today. No. Simple answer--There is no Temple today. It was destroyed in 70 A.D.
That is not to say that there are abuses in church buildings today; it simply to say that you cannot justify your opinion with this Scripture. It has no bearing on your ideas or beliefs. You are taking Scripture out of context to try and support a belief that you must support with other Scripture, not this one. The Temple has nothing to do with church buildings, period.

A better question is simply to ask: Is it right or wrong to sell Bibles, music cd's and other related materials in church buildings? Why or why not. Support your answers with Scripture. I don't believe that you can use the Scipture of Jesus cleansing the Temple as a valid proof-text for jutifying your argument--plain and simple. Find another way if you think you have a valid argument.

Personally when it comes right down to it is:
#1. Simply a matter of opinion.
#2. A matter of the soul liberty of the local church. If a church decides that they want to sell literature in their church building there is not a one of you on this board that has the right to judge that church for doing so. God gave the authority to the local church for making such decisions. If you don't like it, find another church. The decision is not yours. The decision belongs to the church that you attend.
DHK </font>[/QUOTE]

 

[DHK]

Mark 11:17 And he taught, saying unto them, Is it not written, My house shall be called of all nations the house of prayer? but ye have made it a den of thieves.

The emphasis in this verse is you have made it a den of thieves. He was directing his remarks to the money changers, and those that were defiling the Temple. That will not happen in the Millennial Kingdom, and certainly does not happen now. There is no Temple now.
DHK

 

[TexasSky]

DHK,

If you don't think there are places around today that claim to be churches that have become a Den of Thieves, you have your eyes closed.

 

[music4Him]

Originally posted by TexasSky:
DHK,

If you don't think there are places around today that claim to be churches that have become a Den of Thieves, you have your eyes closed.

Some times I need only to turn the Tv on to some TV evangelist station to figure this out.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by TexasSky:
DHK,

If you don't think there are places around today that claim to be churches that have become a Den of Thieves, you have your eyes closed.

So why are you changing the topic?
Are we discussing Mark 11:17 in its historical context, and its meaning, as the title of this thread suggests? Or are you intent on allegorizing Scripture to the point where you can make Scripure say anything you want it to?
The Jewish Temple is not a church, and vice versa.
DHK

 

[music4Him]

Oh silly me! I just get the idea from the text that the people were going to worship God (Uh they did worship God in the temple didn't they?) If so then I wonder when Jesus said they were thieves... was it because they were ripping people off for faulty merchadise....or what about this.... robbing the people by setting up their wares to where the people had thier minds more on the sacrifice (doves...ect) they were buying, instead of why they needed to sacrifice in the first place? Distacting people of what the true reason behind the sacrifice (in that day and time in the building that was called a temple) would be robbing them also wouldn't it?

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by music4Him:
Oh silly me! I just get the idea from the text that the people were going to worship God (Uh they did worship God in the temple didn't they?) If so then I wonder when Jesus said they were thieves... was it because they were ripping people off for faulty merchadise....or what about this.... robbing the people by setting up their wares to where the people had thier minds more on the sacrifice (doves...ect) they were buying, instead of why they needed to sacrifice in the first place? Distacting people of what the true reason behind the sacrifice (in that day and time in the building that was called a temple) would be robbing them also wouldn't it?

So you describe what they did at the Temple.
There is no Temple today. There are no sacrifices today, and no money changers in the Temple today. You'll have to do better than that if you believe in rightly dividing the Word of Truth. Temples have nothing to do with churches.

Furthermore, I am a Baptist. I realize that I am posting in the "Other Denominatons Forum," and some of you either go to, or are from cults, other religions, etc. If the Catholic Church, for example, were to collect all the bits of wood that they are selling that supposedly were part of the cross of Christ, they would have enough wood to build another cathedral.
I read of a Charismatic who is trying to sell pictures of God, which he took while looking at a sunrise. Too bad he is not familiar with John 4:24, and that spirits cannot be seen. But I don't go to Charismatic Churches, nor Catholic Churches. I am a Baptist. So I can understand if you are speaking of corruption in "your" churches, (cults) etc. But I am totally unfamiliar with the allegations you speak of in Baptist churches. To sell a Bible or a music cd in a church building; there is nothing wrong with it. If there is, give evidence from the Bible. But you will have to do it without resorting to Jesus cleansing the Temple, for that has nothing to do with selling Biblical literature in churches.
DHK

 

[jacob62]

Originally posted by music4Him:
Oh silly me! I just get the idea from the text that the people were going to worship God (Uh they did worship God in the temple didn't they?) If so then I wonder when Jesus said they were thieves... was it because they were ripping people off for faulty merchadise....or what about this.... robbing the people by setting up their wares to where the people had thier minds more on the sacrifice (doves...ect) they were buying, instead of why they needed to sacrifice in the first place? Distacting people of what the true reason behind the sacrifice (in that day and time in the building that was called a temple) would be robbing them also wouldn't it?

 

[jacob62]

Originally posted by tamborine lady:

BTW, DHK, that story about "go thou and do likewise" has nothing whatsoever with the way God leads us!! It's just an attempt to lead us down a rabbit trail!!

Proverbs 16-18 Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.
19 Better it is to be of an humble spirit with the lowly, than to divide the spoil with the proud.

Selah,

Tam

 

[jacob62]

So then,now we have learned that the "temple" is our body,thanks goes to DHK for the excellent and prompt scripture knowledge.So now if the temple is also our heart,how can it be defiled as a "den of robbers"?It says in Matthew that "out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks".So when man writes a book or gives testimony,does it not come from his heart?Of course.The testimony itself is good if it is Jesus.But when he sells that testimony of Jesus for profit,he is selling it out of the temple for profit.Just like the doves sellers selling out of the Jewish temple.For Jerimiah also said that "the heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure."Amen

 

[tamborine lady]

YES!!! Jacob, quite a picture!! Kudos!!

Peace,

Tam

 

[tamborine lady]

This is a quote from DHK:

I am a Baptist. So I can understand if you are speaking of corruption in "your" churches, (cults) etc.

First of all, I take that as an insult;I do not belong to a cult!!!

Secondly, it "sounds" like you are saying that if one is not a Baptist, then their churches are all cults.

Is that what you believe in your heart? If so, the following scripture might be something to meditate on.

Matthew-7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.

Working for Jesus,

Tamborine Lady

P.S. I'm sure that was probably for the Jews too, but read it anyway!!

 

[music4Him]

At the Baptist church I used to attend......the pastor wouldn't let people sell their tapes inside the church. If we had a singing group or speaker they would be asked to set up out side. Then no sells were alowed until after the program. If the weather was bad then they were allowed in....but only with rules. None ever had a problem with it and most came back several times. I think it just depends on the pastor and the church and their convictions. The pastor at this church I mentioned still seen the scripture as saying it was a distration to the people. Church or temple it is still a building!

 

[music4Him]

I am a Baptist. So I can understand if you are speaking of corruption in "your" churches, (cults) etc.
Baptist are not excluded from corruption in the church. All men can be tempted and can be lead away and no one is perfect. Unless there was something I wasn't told all these years growing up in the Baptist church that stated since your a Baptist it automatiacally makes you able to walk on water? I usually don't down other denominations, but I will show respect where respect is given.

 

[av1611jim]

Originally posted by tamborine lady:

This is a quote from DHK:

I am a Baptist. So I can understand if you are speaking of corruption in "your" churches, (cults) etc.

First of all, I take that as an insult;I do not belong to a cult!!!

Secondly, it "sounds" like you are saying that if one is not a Baptist, then their churches are all cults.

Is that what you believe in your heart? If so, the following scripture might be something to meditate on.

Matthew-7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.

Working for Jesus,

Tamborine Lady

P.S. I'm sure that was probably for the Jews too, but read it anyway!!

Tam lady;
Perhaps it would do you ( and everyone else) some good to understand that Scripture in its context. Here is the "rest of the story".
Mt 7:2
For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
3
And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
4
Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
5
Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

So, you see, Jesus is NOT saying "never judge" but He IS saying judge correctly and be prepared to stand up to the same principles by which you make your judgement. Clean up your side of the street so you can be accurate in helping to clean up your brother's side of the street.

It is highly disingenuos when "christians" say we shouldn't judge others and quote this verse to justify their misconception about what Jesus actually said about the issue. Usually ( not saying this is you) they have issues they haven't dealt with and when confronted with truth they holler, "You shouldn't judge me!".

Be accurate when you use Scripture, for if you are not accurate, it will come back to destroy your position.

In HIS service;
Jim

 

[jacob62]

Can we get back on topic?