When we die do we go directly to heaven??

[Andre]

1. My choice is "made alive" is a reference to a mortal body that will become immortal.

Then you are taking the position that when Paul writes:

For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man.For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.

he is talking about bodies and not even addressing the issue of the real "place" where our existence, on your view anyway, really lies - namely the "soul" or "spirit" that is already in Heaven. Of course, this is not a "plain reading" at all - it requires us to accept the "insertion" of an "I am only talking about bodies here" qualifier. In fact it also requires us to see this text (from the end of the chapter):

"Where, O death, is your sting?" The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ"

as a declaration of what must be a very limited victory - the great victory, on your view anyway, seems to be God's ability to give you an immortal body. Let's be clear here - you are saying that the "being made alive" stuff at Christ's return is about bodies - the soul is already securely in Heaven enjoying full experience of fellowship with God and other saints.

I would have thought that the great victory would be Christ's victory over the death of that entity which carries the essence of who we are - a disembodied soul / spirit (on your view, anyway). The real victory is that we get conscious existence in fellowship with God in Heaven - not to merely wrap that disembodied soul in a body.

3. Per Luke 16:19 both the rich and Lazarus were fully conscious after death, though this scene is before the cross and the resurrection.

Then it would seem that Lazarus has already attained what any reasonable person would see as the real victory - the "swallowing up of death in victory. The problem is that Paul sees this as a future event:

I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."

I believe that the Luke 16 account is a parable where Jesus is critiquing the nation of Israel for its failure to fulfill its destiny to be God's people for the world. It is no co-incidence that the rich man has five brothers. I believe Jesus is implicitly referring to the five brothers of Judah as per Genesis 35:23:

The sons of Leah:
Reuben the firstborn of Jacob,
Simeon, Levi, Judah, Issachar and Zebulun

I will make a claim that I will not defend in this post but which I believe is indeed defensible: there is a Biblical precedent of Judah as being used to represent Israel as a whole. The use of one person to represent his people is a thoroughly Biblical concept - I claim that Jesus "became the nation of Israel" in a sense I will not get into here.

I think the Luke 16 account has nothing to do with the state of affairs in the human afterlife but is rather Jesus' way of telling the nation of Israel that a new covenant family is about to created - and not one that is based on Jewish ethnicity.

 

[TCGreek]

Then you are taking the position that when Paul writes:

For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man.For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.

he is talking about bodies and not even addressing the issue of the real "place" where our existence, on your view anyway, really lies - namely the "soul" or "spirit" that is already in Heaven. Of course, this is not a "plain reading" at all - it requires us to accept the "insertion" of an "I am only talking about bodies here" qualifier. In fact it also requires us to see this text (from the end of the chapter):

"Where, O death, is your sting?" The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ"

1. A summary, I see in these verses, stating what will be without going into details. Details, I agree, must be sought elsewhere.

as a declaration of what must be a very limited victory - the great victory, on your view anyway, seems to be God's ability to give you an immortal body. Let's be clear here - you are saying that the "being made alive" stuff at Christ's return is about bodies - the soul is already securely in Heaven enjoying full experience of fellowship with God and other saints.

2. Why do you feel the need to make light of our going to be with the Lord at the point of death in heaven, I will never know?

I would have thought that the great victory would be Christ's victory over the death of that entity which carries the essence of who we are - a disembodied soul / spirit (on your view, anyway). The real victory is that we get conscious existence in fellowship with God in Heaven - not to merely wrap that disembodied soul in a body.

3. Show me Scripture.

Then it would seem that Lazarus has already attained what any reasonable person would see as the real victory - the "swallowing up of death in victory. The problem is that Paul sees this as a future event:

I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."

I believe that the Luke 16 account is a parable where Jesus is critiquing the nation of Israel for its failure to fulfill its destiny to be God's people for the world. It is no co-incidence that the rich man has five brothers. I believe Jesus is implicitly referring to the five brothers of Judah as per Genesis 35:23:

The sons of Leah:
Reuben the firstborn of Jacob,
Simeon, Levi, Judah, Issachar and Zebulun

I will make a claim that I will not defend in this post but which I believe is indeed defensible: there is a Biblical precedent of Judah as being used to represent Israel as a whole. The use of one person to represent his people is a thoroughly Biblical concept - I claim that Jesus "became the nation of Israel" in a sense I will not get into here.

I think the Luke 16 account has nothing to do with the state of affairs in the human afterlife but is rather Jesus' way of telling the nation of Israel that a new covenant family is about to created - and not one that is based on Jewish ethnicity.

4. I see Lazarus before the cross, representing full conscious after death, whether it's a parable or a real incident.

 

[BobRyan]

John 11:25-26 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

--Jesus said that the believer would never die. He obviously refers to the spirit of the believer, for He, in his omniscience, knows that the Resurrection will not take place for thousands of years yet. Thus Martha's spirit would never die. He was saying: Do you believe Martha, that by believing on me you shall never die? The only way that would be possible is that if Martha went to heaven after her death and was with the Lord in her spirit until the time of the resurrection. This is the teaching of Christ. "Thou shalt never die. Believest thou this?" Apparently not Bob.

John 11 Christ said "LAZARUS sleeps" believest though this DHK?

John 11 Christ said "LAZARUS is DEAD" believest though this DHK?

He does not say "Lazarus' BODY sleeps" -- seest though that DHK?

Christ never said that "THE DEAD in Christ" are not dead.

Rather Christ argues in Matt 22 that the ONLY way that God can claim to be the "God of those who have died" is via the RESURRECTION because THAT ALONE makes it possible!

Scripture can not be denied DHK - believest though this??


"It is appointed unto man once to die and after this the judgement."

Your definition of death is obscured by your cultish...<obligatory ranting deleted>

Your repeated efforts to substitute ad hominem for Bible argument is noted.

Make Bible arguments please.

James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Death is separation. When the body separates itself from the spirit it is dead. The body is dead but the spirit lives on for all eternity in one of two places: heaven or hell. The Bible consistently describes death as separation. When we speak of Biblical terms we must define them as the Bible defines them.

Indeed you show Bible support for the fact that the BODY is dead - you show NO Bible support AT ALL for "spirit lives on for all eternity in one of two places: heaven or hell".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

24 ""And he cried out and said, " Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.'

Abraham is appealed to - as in authority. Very acceptable mythology (parable) to Jews of Christ's day.

Burton Coffman

http://www.studylight.org/com/bcc/view.cgi?book=lu&chapter=016

Verse 24
And he cried, and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am in anguish in this flame.
Father Abraham ...
Here is found the absolute necessity for seeing this as a parable; for Abraham himself, like all the saints in death, is in the place here called "Abraham's bosom." Abraham is therefore a type of God who presides over both Paradise and the place of the wicked in Hades. This, of course, negates any support that might be supposed in this connection for praying to departed saints. Besides that, as Wesley said:
It cannot be denied but here in Scripture is the precedent of praying to departed saints. But who is it that prays, and with what success? Will anyone who considers this be found copying after him? F39

Matthew Henry on the parable of the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16
“As the parable of the prodigal son set before us the grace of the gospel, which is encouraging to us all, so this sets before us the wrath to come, and is designed for our awakening; and very fast asleep those are in sin that will not be awakened by it. The Pharisees made a jest of Christ's sermon against worldliness; now this parable was intended to make those mockers serious.”
…
Parables must not be forced beyond their primary intention, and therefore we must not hence infer that any one can befriend us if we lie under the displeasure of our Lord, but that, in the general, we must so lay out what we have in works of piety and charity as that we may meet it again with comfort on the other side death and the grave.
…
This parable is not like Christ's other parables, in which spiritual things are represented by similitudes borrowed from worldly things, as those of the sower and the seed (except that of the sheep and goats), the prodigal son, and indeed all the rest but this. But here the spiritual things themselves are represented in a narrative or description of the different state of good and bad in this world and the other. Yet we need not call it a history of a particular occurrence, but it is matter of fact that is true every day, that poor godly people, whom men neglect and trample upon, die away out of their miseries
http://www.studylight.org/com/mhc-com/view.cgi?book=lu&chapter=016

Albert Barnes on the parable found in Luke 16 –
http://www.studylight.org/com/bnn/view.cgi?book=lu&chapter=016
Verse 19. There was a certain rich man. Many have supposed that our Lord here refers to a real history, and gives an account of some man who had lived in this manner; but of this there is no evidence. The probability is that this narrative is to be considered as a parable, referring not to any particular case which had actually happened, but teaching that such cases might happen. The design of the narrative is to be collected from the previous conversation.
…

 

[BobRyan]

Matt 22:23-34 Christ insists that God is not the God of the dead.

Praise to God - ceases at death
Ps 115:17 the dead do not praise the Lord, nor do any who go down into silence;
18 [b]but as for us, we will bless[/b] the lord from this time forth and forever. Praise the lord!
Ps30:9 yet clearly when the living worship we "worship in spirit" John 4:24 -

No thanks or praise to God given by those that are dead.
Is 38:18 “for sheol cannot thank you, death cannot praise you; those who go down to the pit cannot hopefor your faithfulness.
19 “it is the living who give thanks to you, as I do today;

No memory of God
Ps 6:5for there is no mention of you in death; in sheol who will give you thanks?

No thought activity

Ps 146:2 I will sing praises to my God while I have my being.
3 do not trust in princes, in mortal man, in whom there is no salvation.
4 his spirit departs, he returns to the earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
5 how blessed is he whose help is the God of Jacob,
Ecclesiasties 9:5-6 they have no activity

Ps 143
3Do not trust in princes,
In mortal man, in whom there is no salvation.
4His spirit departs, he returns to the earth;
In that very day his thoughts perish.

Isaiah 38
18"For Sheol cannot thank You,
Death cannot praise You;
Those who go down to the pit cannot hope for Your faithfulness.
19"It is the living who give thanks to You, as I do today;
A father tells his sons about Your faithfulness.

 

[BobRyan]

Hint -- although we all know that after people on earth die - there is in the future a judgment (the 2Cor 5 judgment for example) yet there is NO TEXT IN ALL OF SCRIPTURE that says that at the moment of death "we are judged" -- no not even in Heb 9!

As Paul pointed out in Romans 2-- that day of judgment for ALL men was FUTURE to Paul's day!

 

[DHK]

John 11 Christ said "LAZARUS sleeps" believest though this DHK?

John 11 Christ said "LAZARUS is DEAD" believest though this DHK?

He does not say "Lazarus' BODY sleeps" -- seest though that DHK?

Christ never said that "THE DEAD in Christ" are not dead.

Rather Christ argues in Matt 22 that the ONLY way that God can claim to be the "God of those who have died" is via the RESURRECTION because THAT ALONE makes it possible!

Scripture can not be denied DHK - believest though this??

That is a nice way to avoid a question that you are unable to answer. For your sake I will repeat it. But I doubt if I will get you to answer it

John 11:25-26 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

--Jesus said that the believer would never die. He obviously refers to the spirit of the believer, for He, in his omniscience, knows that the Resurrection will not take place for thousands of years yet. Thus Martha's spirit would never die. He was saying: Do you believe Martha, that by believing on me you shall never die? The only way that would be possible is that if Martha went to heaven after her death and was with the Lord in her spirit until the time of the resurrection. This is the teaching of Christ. "Thou shalt never die. Believest thou this?" Apparently not Bob.

"It is appointed unto man once to die and after this the judgement."

And immediatley after death is the judgement--hell or heaven. Man meets his maker. He doesn't sit around waiting for the resurrection. The verse doesn't say: It is appointed unto man once to die and after that the soul sleep! NOT!

Make Bible arguments please.

I made plenty of them. It is too bad you avoided answering them.

Indeed you show Bible support for the fact that the BODY is dead - you show NO Bible support AT ALL for "spirit lives on for all eternity in one of two places: heaven or hell".

Learn to read the Bible Bob.

"The body without the spirit is dead."
In essence--The body is dead.
The body--subject.
"is" --verb
"dead"--predicate adjective.
"without the spirit"--prepositional phrase acting as an adjectival clause.

It is the body that is dead (not destroyed or annihiliated).
It is without the spirit. Without the spirit it is dead. That is the cause of its death. The body without the spirit (which lives on forever) is dead.
The verse says nothing about the spirit dying. It does not die. It is simply separated from the body. Death is separation. The spirit lives on forever.
The body is dead (separated).
The spirit is very much alive.

You argue from silence. What do want to throw into that verse: limbo, the Annunciation? more Purgatory? If it is not there, believe it anyway?? Nowhere in Scripture does the Bible NOT teach the eternality of the spirit.

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by BobRyan
John 11 Christ said "LAZARUS sleeps" believest though this DHK?

Jesus then says " I go that I may wake HIM" not "I go that I may wake IT"

John 11 Christ said "LAZARUS is DEAD" believest though this DHK?

He does not say "Lazarus' BODY sleeps" -- seest though that DHK?

Christ never said that "THE DEAD in Christ" are not dead.

Rather Christ argues in Matt 22 that the ONLY way that God can claim to be the "God of those who have died" is via the RESURRECTION because THAT ALONE makes it possible!

Scripture can not be denied DHK - believest though this??

Predictably - DHK ignores the scriptures given above.

John 11:25-26 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Though Lazarus IS DEAD - he WILL live again.

Christ had already stated "Lazarus IS dead" in John 11.

But clearly Lazarus WOULD live again!


Jesus also said "God is NOT the God of the Dead" in Matt 22

And Paul informs us "THE DEAD in Christ rise first" in 1Thess 4.

in Matt 22 Christ said that the FACT that "God is not the God of the dead" AND yet God STILL claims to be the God of Abraham when speaking to Moses -- can ONLY be true via the SOLUTION of the FUTURE resurrection of the saints.

I am going to have to go with Christ on that one.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

Predictably - DHK ignores the scriptures given above.
Bob

You are the one ignoring the Scripture Bob. I will quote for the third time now, but this time I will quote only the relevant portion so you won't get side tracked. This time concentrate on this portion only:

"And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?"

As for me Bob, I believe in Christ. I shall never die.

Jesus did not say: "And whosoever...believeth in me shall fall into soul sleep. Believest thou this?" NOT!!

 

[hillclimber1]

Eternal life is not received until the 1Thess 4 and Rev 20 "event" of the age to come.

Eternal life is one of the gifts received at the time of conversion to Christ.

 

[TCGreek]

Eternal life is one of the gifts received at the time of conversion to Christ.

1. Either we go with Bob or we go with the apostle John who says, "And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has the life... These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life (1John 5:11, 12, 13, emphasis added).

2. I'll go with the apostle John. Who are you going with?

 

[BobRyan]

1. Either we go with Bob or we go with the apostle John

On the contrary -- either we go with TCG or we go with the words of Christ!

John 11
11 This He said, and after that He said to them, ""Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I go, so that I may awaken him out of sleep.''
12 The disciples then said to Him, ""Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will recover.''
13 Now Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that He was speaking of literal sleep.
14 So Jesus then said to them plainly, ""Lazarus is dead,

IF we go with the Words of Christ in John 11 we will NOT have to go with the imaginary doctrine of those who would have John 11 read thusly -


11 This He said, and after that He said to them, ""Our friend Lazarus is AWAKE but his body has fallen asleep; but I go, so that I may awaken IT out of sleep.''
12 The disciples then said to Him, ""Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will recover.''
13 Now Jesus had spoken of Lazarus body and that IT was dead, but they thought that He was speaking of literal sleep of the PERSON.
14 So Jesus then said to them plainly, ""Lazarus is NOT dead – His body is asleep in death however,

I will go with the actual Words of Christ.

And as for Eternal Life "FUTURE" as we saw already it occurs for us in the "Age to Come".

Eph 2 - "we are seated with him in the heavenly places" by faith now - even though in reality this does not happen until the Rev 20 event.

1. Mark 10:30
   but that he will receive a hundred times as much now in the present age, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and farms, along with persecutions; and in the age to come, eternal life.
2. Luke 18:30
   who will not receive many times as much at this time and in the age to come, eternal life."

In Christ,

Bob

 

[TCGreek]

On the contrary -- either we go with TCG or we go with the words of Christ!



IF we go with the Words of Christ in John 11 we will NOT have to go with the imaginary doctrine of those who would have John 11 read thusly -


11 This He said, and after that He said to them, ""Our friend Lazarus is AWAKE but his body has fallen asleep; but I go, so that I may awaken IT out of sleep.''
12 The disciples then said to Him, ""Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will recover.''
13 Now Jesus had spoken of Lazarus body and that IT was dead, but they thought that He was speaking of literal sleep of the PERSON.
14 So Jesus then said to them plainly, ""Lazarus is NOT dead – His body is asleep in death however,

I will go with the actual Words of Christ.

And as for Eternal Life "FUTURE" as we saw already it occurs for us in the "Age to Come".

Eph 2 - "we are seated with him in the heavenly places" by faith now - even though in reality this does not happen until the Rev 20 event.

1. Mark 10:30
   but that he will receive a hundred times as much now in the present age, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and farms, along with persecutions; and in the age to come, eternal life.
2. Luke 18:30
   who will not receive many times as much at this time and in the age to come, eternal life."

In Christ,

Bob

1. Forget about both Bob and TCGreek.

2. Are we putting Christ against John?

3. Shouldn't we be looking for a harmony to these texts?

 

[BobRyan]

In Eccl 12 God tells us that the spirit "of man" (all men both good and bad) goes back to God at death.

This is the state in 2Cor 5 - the "unclothed state" where we have not received our resurrected bodies --immortal and eternal heavenly ones also descrbied in 1Cor 15 -- and we no longer have our earthly bodies.

It is the state of innactivity described as the state of being dead.

It is WHY Christ AFFIRMS that "HE is NOT the God of the dead" because they have no concept of worship or praise to God in death.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

in our spirit we worship God, we remember what God has done for us, in our spirit we give thanks and praise to God - we think about who He is and what He has done.

All that "ceases" at death.

This is why in Matt 22 Christ insists that "God is NOT the god of the Dead". Because in the state of death the PERSON -- is asleep "Lazarus Sleeps" not "Lazarus' decaying body sleeps instead of decaying"

The Bible only speaks of "mortal man" not "immortal man" and not "immortal spirit"

Matt 22:23-34 Christ insists that God is not the God of the dead.

Praise to God - ceases at death
Ps 115:17 the dead do not praise the Lord, nor do any who go down into silence;
18 [b]but as for us, we will bless[/b] the lord from this time forth and forever. Praise the lord!
Ps30:9 yet clearly when the living worship we "worship in spirit" John 4:24 -

No thanks or praise to God given by those that are dead.
Is 38:18 “for sheol cannot thank you, death cannot praise you; those who go down to the pit cannot hopefor your faithfulness.
19 “it is the living who give thanks to you, as I do today;

No memory of God
Ps 6:5for there is no mention of you in death; in sheol who will give you thanks?

No thought activity

Ps 146:2 I will sing praises to my God while I have my being.
3 do not trust in princes, in mortal man, in whom there is no salvation.
4 his spirit departs, he returns to the earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
5 how blessed is he whose help is the God of Jacob,
Ecclesiasties 9:5-6 they have no activity

Ps 143
3Do not trust in princes,
In mortal man, in whom there is no salvation.
4His spirit departs, he returns to the earth;
In that very day his thoughts perish.

Isaiah 38
18"For Sheol cannot thank You,
Death cannot praise You;
Those who go down to the pit cannot hope for Your faithfulness.
19"It is the living who give thanks to You, as I do today;
A father tells his sons about Your faithfulness.


Those are examples of texts that in context intend to deal directly with what activity is available to you while dead.

As I said before - these kinds of texts may not be very popular - but we all have read them and I for one can not ignore them.

 

[BobRyan]

1. Forget about both Bob and TCGreek.

2. Are we putting Christ against John?

3. Shouldn't we be looking for a harmony to these texts?

I don't see that as the issue at all.

Just as we see Eph 2 the promise that by faith we are seated with Christ at the right hand of God and yet we LOOK and see that only after glorification at the 1Thess 4 "event" also described in 1Cor 15 will we ascend to "My Father's House" and only then be seated with Christ (Rev 20) -- yet we readily accept the by-faith statement of Eph 2 without saying "Who should I believe Paul or John".

The objective unbiased reader is going to see that clearly.

(Just pointing out the obvious).

in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

You are the one ignoring the Scripture Bob. I will quote for the third time now, but this time I will quote only the relevant portion so you won't get side tracked. This time concentrate on this portion only:

"And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?"

As for me Bob, I believe in Christ. I shall never die.

Jesus did not say: "And whosoever...believeth in me shall fall into soul sleep. Believest thou this?" NOT!!

Still ignoring Scripture Bob?

 

[ReformedBaptist]

I say, not the Lord, if Bob wants to go where he thinks he is going when dead, if he wants to go to sleep, let him. As for me, I go to Jesus. See ya when you get there Bob! :laugh:

 

[Andre]

You are the one ignoring the Scripture Bob. I will quote for the third time now, but this time I will quote only the relevant portion so you won't get side tracked. This time concentrate on this portion only:

"And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die.. Believest thou this?"

As for me Bob, I believe in Christ. I shall never die.

Jesus did not say: "And whosoever...believeth in me shall fall into soul sleep. Believest thou this?" NOT!!

This is not an effective counterargument to the "soul sleep" position. You (DHK) seem to argue as follows:

1. Jesus says that whoever believes in Him will never die.
2. Jesus did not say that whoever believes in Him will enter "soul sleep"
3. Therefore, you (Bob) are denying statement 1.

Item 3 is only correct if it can be shown that "entering into soul sleep" is a transition which effectively can be construed as death. And this is not so.

This is a subtle matter. I cannot speak for Bob, and I admit I have not read all his posts. For me, there is a clear, albeit arguably subtle, distinction between being a state of "consciousness - less" and being dead.

When Fred dies and enters "soul sleep" (making this assumption for the sake of the argument), he is not dead - the essence of who he is is "safe in Christ", even through its a temporary "lights out" for Fred as a subject of experience. Perhaps the following analogy will clarify - knowledge of "the blueprint for Fred" is stored in the mind of God, to be used to "make Fred alive" at the return of Christ as 1 Cor 15 so clearly teaches. Being dead arguably means being "done for good" as it were. And Fred is indeed not "done for good".

So to claim that Fred enters soul sleep in no way denies the truthfulness of Jesus' statement: "And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die."

 

[DHK]

This is not an effective counterargument to the "soul sleep" position.

If you don't think it is, answer it in the light of post #98.
Refute the Scripture and the arguments that I have posted there first.