When we die do we go directly to heaven??

[Eliyahu]

I thought this thread is about where to go after death.

RCC may believe that they go to Purgatory, not to Heaven !

Protestants may believe they go to Paradise as the Robber at the Cross did. So, I believe the Paradise is the waiting place after death, before entering the Heaven, while the unbelievers are waiting in the Hades ( the Sheol in OT)

I think there were many groups of people who believed in Soul Sleep.

Some part of Waldensians, Socinians, Anabaptists have believed this Soul Sleep

Calvin refuted them.

I am rather careful about the issue of Souls Sleep but believe in Soul Sleep.
In this case we must admit the Wake-Up calls by God, or Disturbances by the witches as we read about Saul and Samuel called by the witch.
Re 6 shows the prayers by the Martyrs.

11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Their Cry was only before the Rest.

Luke 16 must be understood as a Parable. Otherwise, the rich is tormented before the Judgment, and Abraham's bosom may not be enough for the millions of believers.

In general, many verses like 1 Cor 11:30, 1 Thess 4:15, Jn 11 are talking about the sleep of the Dead. Now, does the Sleep mean the Body Sleep?
Our bodies sleep 7-8 hours everyday. Does it mean the Body Sleep?
If the Sleep meant the Body Sleep, how can it sleep after the disolving of the brain? What about the cremated body? ( Many martyrs were burnt!) Are their dead bodies sleeping? No they were disolved completely.
Our new bodies will be different from the current ones as we read 1 Cor 15.

40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Our bodies will be different from the Earthly Ones, the burnt bodies in case of the burnt. However, I believe that there will be the exact linkage between the Earthly Bodies and the Celestial Bodies.
So, in case of Wake-Up, I believe the Souls are awaken up so that they may wear the Celestial Bodies.

When we talk about the identity of a person, it means the Soul in general.
All the teachings are addressed to the souls.
For example, when Paul asked Galatians to walk and follow the Spirit, then they will not commit sins ( Gal 5:16-). Then was Paul speaking to the Bodies of the Galatians? NOPE! He was addressing the Words of God to the Souls of Galatians. When people are saved, does it mean that their bodies are saved ? No. So, in general Souls are very important to accept the Gospel and Commandments of the God, and Souls are the ID of each person. Spirits are the Vessels to accept the Holy Spirit, the Eternal Life. If the Soul repent, then the person is saved. If the Soul commit sins, he will die. Souls embrace the Brains of the Body and operate them. But the brains are corrupted after we die, and they are not awaken.

Therefore I believe that we should understand the Sleep means the Soul Sleep, not the Body Sleep which sleeps 7-8 hours every day and is corrupted after the death or burnt away by the Cremation.
In general, the Souls are asleep with the exception of wake-ups by God.
However, witches or sorcerers may be able to disturb the Sleep of the souls with the help of Satan, which is prohibited by God.

 

[DHK]

Our bodies sleep 7-8 hours everyday. Does it mean the Body Sleep?
If the Sleep meant the Body Sleep, how can it sleep after the disolving of the brain? What about the cremated body? ( Many martyrs were burnt!) Are their dead bodies sleeping? No they were disolved completely.
Our new bodies will be different from the current ones as we read 1 Cor 15.

The resurrection always applies to the body and the body only. There is no such thing as a "spirit" resurrection, as the J.W.'s teach. In teaching thus they deny the resurrection completely. If the resurrection did not apply to the body only, then Christ would not have been raised from the dead. It was the tomb that was found empty. It was his body that was gone. Not the spirit, soul, or however you else may define a person. The resurrection only applies to the body.

When the resurrection takes place the bodies from the graves will arise. This has nothing to do with souls or spirits. It has to do with bodies only. Our resurrection applies only to the body. It is the body that sleeps. Sleep is a synonym from the "sleep" or death of the body. It has nothing to do with the soul or the spirit.
God is able to take the ashes of Wycliffe, burnt at the stake, and gather each and every atom of his body and fashion it together into his own body and glorify it. We serve a powerful God. Is there anything too difficult for God?

Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

 

[Eliyahu]

The resurrection always applies to the body and the body only. There is no such thing as a "spirit" resurrection, as the J.W.'s teach. In teaching thus they deny the resurrection completely. If the resurrection did not apply to the body only, then Christ would not have been raised from the dead. It was the tomb that was found empty. It was his body that was gone. Not the spirit, soul, or however you else may define a person. The resurrection only applies to the body.

When the resurrection takes place the bodies from the graves will arise. This has nothing to do with souls or spirits. It has to do with bodies only. Our resurrection applies only to the body. It is the body that sleeps. Sleep is a synonym from the "sleep" or death of the body. It has nothing to do with the soul or the spirit.
God is able to take the ashes of Wycliffe, burnt at the stake, and gather each and every atom of his body and fashion it together into his own body and glorify it. We serve a powerful God. Is there anything too difficult for God?

Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

I think my previous post explain enough and refute this as well.

We cannot equalize our earthly bodies to the body of Jesus. Even the body of Jesus may have been in different status after the Resurrection as his body could enter thru the closed door. His body could walk on the sea even before the Resurrection.

I don't deny the Power of God in resurrecting the bodies, but what I say is that the body after the resurrection is different from the body that we had before on this earth, as we read 1 Cor 15. I don't believe 1 Cor 15 is wrong.

We do know that even a single particle of the ashes can produce a whole body of a person. But we must note that Paul is saying " put on" the body. Who is putting on the Body? Soul !

Are we Soul winners or body winners? Are the Souls saved or bodies are saved?

 

[DHK]

I think my previous post explain enough and refute this as well.

We cannot equalize our earthly bodies to the body of Jesus. Even the body of Jesus may have been in different status after the Resurrection as his body could enter thru the closed door. His body could walk on the sea even before the Resurrection.

I don't deny the Power of God in resurrecting the bodies, but what I say is that the body after the resurrection is different from the body that we had before on this earth, as we read 1 Cor 15. I don't believe 1 Cor 15 is wrong.

We do know that even a single particle of the ashes can produce a whole body of a person. But we must note that Paul is saying " put on" the body. Who is putting on the Body? Soul !

Are we Soul winners or body winners? Are the Souls saved or bodies are saved?

2 Corinthians 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

Our body is just a tent, a temporary body that will go back to dust. From dust we were made, and to dust we shall return. It is God that shall resurrect that pile of dust into a glorious body fashioned like unto his own.

1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

We will be like him. In our bodies we will have great similarities to the body of Christ.

In salvation it is the spirit that is saved. It is the spirit that is eternal, and lives on forever. It is the spirit that will live on either in hell or in heaven depending on the choice that he makes on earth. That destination is immediately after death. Nowhere in the Bible does it teach that he has to await the resurrection to go to heaven or to hell. The rich man looked up to Abraham, he already being tormented in hell. Parable or not, Christ would not use lies in teaching truth. If soul sleep was a truth then Christ would have been teaching a lie. One doesn't propagate a lie in order to teach a truth.

How do you differentiate between a soul and a spirit. In some places the Bible differentiates between the two. In other places it uses the two words interchangeably just like you do in this conversation. Until you come to a clear definition and understanding of those two terms and are able to use them properly you will be confused, especially when you have people like Bob (an SDA) defining them in a completely different way then you would.

 

[Eliyahu]

2 Corinthians 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

Our body is just a tent, a temporary body that will go back to dust. From dust we were made, and to dust we shall return. It is God that shall resurrect that pile of dust into a glorious body fashioned like unto his own.

1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

We will be like him. In our bodies we will have great similarities to the body of Christ.

In salvation it is the spirit that is saved. It is the spirit that is eternal, and lives on forever. It is the spirit that will live on either in hell or in heaven depending on the choice that he makes on earth. That destination is immediately after death. Nowhere in the Bible does it teach that he has to await the resurrection to go to heaven or to hell. The rich man looked up to Abraham, he already being tormented in hell. Parable or not, Christ would not use lies in teaching truth. If soul sleep was a truth then Christ would have been teaching a lie. One doesn't propagate a lie in order to teach a truth.

How do you differentiate between a soul and a spirit. In some places the Bible differentiates between the two. In other places it uses the two words interchangeably just like you do in this conversation. Until you come to a clear definition and understanding of those two terms and are able to use them properly you will be confused, especially when you have people like Bob (an SDA) defining them in a completely different way then you would.

Jn 11:

11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
- Soul Sleep

12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. - Body Sleep

13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: - Body Death

but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep - Body Sleep

Genesis 2:
7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed ( Ruach)

into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul ( Nepesh)

From the beginning Ruah and Nepesh have been distinguished.

Pneuma and Pushke have been distinguished all the time.

Read the Praise by Mary in Luke 1:46. Body obeys the Souls when it praise the Lord.

In many verses, Bible distinguish between soul and Spirit, otherwise Paul was wrong:
1 Thess 5
23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

You can find soul in the Bilbe more than 400 times, separately from Spirit which appears more than 400 times as well.

 

[DHK]

Jn 11:

11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
- Soul Sleep

Why would Jesus speak in mysteries to his disciples, especially in metaphysical nonsense unknown at that time and age. Sleep refers to death--physical death. All that Christ was referring to was the physical death of Lazarus. The body in the grave was dead--asleep. The same is true of those referred to in 1Cor.11:30.

12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. - Body Sleep

13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: - Body Death

You changed the meaning of the word; notice I didn't. Why do you give the word one meaning in one verse but not in the other. You are not consistent. The SDA's do the same thing. They are not consistent. They change the meanings to suit their own pre-conceived theology.

 

[BobRyan]

in our spirit we worship God, we remember what God has done for us, in our spirit we give thanks and praise to God - we think about who He is and what He has done.

All that "ceases" at death.

then of course I listed the scriptures showing the inconvenient details that DHK and others so wished to ignore... These scriptures show that what the PERSON did while alive - the PERSON can no longer do in death. Because the PERSON is dormant in death and the physical body is "decaying" -

This is why in Matt 22 Christ insists that "God is NOT the god of the Dead". Because in the state of death the PERSON -- is asleep "Lazarus Sleeps" not "Lazarus' decaying body sleeps instead of decaying"

The Bible only speaks of "mortal man" not "immortal man" and not "immortal spirit"

Matt 22:23-34 Christ insists that God is not the God of the dead.

Praise to God - ceases at death
Ps 115:17 the dead do not praise the Lord, nor do any who go down into silence;
18 [b]but as for us, we will bless[/b] the lord from this time forth and forever. Praise the lord!
Ps30:9 yet clearly when the living worship we "worship in spirit" John 4:24 -

No thanks or praise to God given by those that are dead.
Is 38:18 “for sheol cannot thank you, death cannot praise you; those who go down to the pit cannot hopefor your faithfulness.
19 “it is the living who give thanks to you, as I do today;

No memory of God
Ps 6:5for there is no mention of you in death; in sheol who will give you thanks?

No thought activity

Ps 146:2 I will sing praises to my God while I have my being.
3 do not trust in princes, in mortal man, in whom there is no salvation.
4 his spirit departs, he returns to the earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
5 how blessed is he whose help is the God of Jacob,
Ecclesiasties 9:5-6 they have no activity

Ps 143
3Do not trust in princes,
In mortal man, in whom there is no salvation.
4His spirit departs, he returns to the earth;
In that very day his thoughts perish.

Isaiah 38
18"For Sheol cannot thank You,
Death cannot praise You;
Those who go down to the pit cannot hope for Your faithfulness.
19"It is the living who give thanks to You, as I do today;
A father tells his sons about Your faithfulness.


Those are examples of texts that in context intend to deal directly with what activity is available to you while dead.

As I said before - these kinds of texts may not be very popular - but we all have read them and I for one can not ignore them.

so what was their answer?

An argument that Pretends Bob is the source of those scriptures!!

What kind of non-answer is that guys?!!?

Why not just say "I give up" instead of pretending that I am the author of what does not please you in scripture??!

In Christ,

bob

 

[BobRyan]

Quote:
John 11
11 This He said, and after that He said to them, ""Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I go, so that I may awaken him out of sleep.''
12 The disciples then said to Him, ""Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will recover.''
13 Now Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that He was speaking of literal sleep.
14 So Jesus then said to them plainly, ""Lazarus is dead,


IF we go with the Words of Christ in John 11 we will NOT have to go with the imaginary doctrine of those who would have John 11 read thusly -


11 This He said, and after that He said to them, ""Our friend Lazarus is AWAKE but his body has fallen asleep; but I go, so that I may awaken IT out of sleep.''
12 The disciples then said to Him, ""Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will recover.''
13 Now Jesus had spoken of Lazarus body and that IT was dead, but they thought that He was speaking of literal sleep of the PERSON.
14 So Jesus then said to them plainly, ""Lazarus is NOT dead – His body is asleep in death however,

I will go with the actual Words of Christ.

And as for Eternal Life "FUTURE" as we saw already it occurs for us in the "Age to Come".

Eph 2 - "we are seated with him in the heavenly places" by faith now - even though in reality this does not happen until the Rev 20 event.

1. Mark 10:30
   but that he will receive a hundred times as much now in the present age, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and farms, along with persecutions; and in the age to come, eternal life.
2. Luke 18:30
   who will not receive many times as much at this time and in the age to come, eternal life."

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Eliyahu]

Your point is understandable.

I will paraphrase it again:

Jn 11:

11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
- Soul Sleep

12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. - Body Sleep

Disciples thought Jesus meant the Body Sleep.

13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: - Body Death
However, Jesus meant the Soul Sleep as it comes after the Body Death. Am I clear?
Jesus meant the Body Death which results in Soul Sleep. Therefore Body Death almost equals the Soul Sleep.

but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep - Body Sleep

Disciples thought Jesus was talking about Body Sleep while Jesus meant Soul Sleep.

Am I clearer?

 

[BobRyan]

Ok so if the PERSON is the one "WHO" sleeps rather than the PERSON having "some THING that sleeps" what happens to THIS decaying tent?

in 2cor 5 "it DECAYS" it does not sleep.

in 1Cor 15 "That which is sow IS NOT what you reap" the old body "does not come back".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Your point is understandable.

I will paraphrase it again:

Jn 11:

11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
- Soul Sleep

12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. - Body Sleep

Disciples thought Jesus meant the Body Sleep.

13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: - Body Death
However, Jesus meant the Soul Sleep as it comes after the Body Death. Am I clear?
Jesus meant the Body Death which results in Soul Sleep. Therefore Body Death almost equals the Soul Sleep.

but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep - Body Sleep

Disciples thought Jesus was talking about Body Sleep while Jesus meant Soul Sleep.

Am I clearer?

you are correct the disciples thought Jesus spoke of a living PERSON that sleeps physically. So a living Body that is literally "asleep" and thus the entire person is asleep. Body ALIVE and sleeping - PERSON alive and sleeping in "this decaying tent".

But in death - the body DECAYS - it is dead never more to come back and the PERSON is asleep "dormant" for "The spirit goes back to God who gave it" Eccl12 at death - but in a "dormant state". At the resurrection a new physical eternal body is given to the "PERSON" - as 2Cor 5 states.

That dormant state is limited to "not doing " all the "praise" and "Worship" and "thanks to God" that the "person" was doing while fully alive. So without the physical DECAYING tent and not yet having the ETERNAL immortal body of 1Cor 15 and 2Cor 5 -- this is the "unclothed state" that Paul speaks of in 2Cor 5.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[TCGreek]

Jn 11:

11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
- Soul Sleep

12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. - Body Sleep

13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: - Body Death

but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep - Body Sleep

Genesis 2:
7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed ( Ruach)

into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul ( Nepesh)

From the beginning Ruah and Nepesh have been distinguished.

1. It is a misuse of data to say that nephesh and ruach are always to be distinguished. Gen. 41:8 and Ps 6:3, shows that at times nephesh and ruach can be used interchangeably.

Pneuma and Pushke have been distinguished all the time.

2. pneuma and psyche are used interchangeably at times, making no distinction; Matt. 26:38 and John 11:33 make that unmistakably clear.

In many verses, Bible distinguish between soul and Spirit, otherwise Paul was wrong:
1 Thess 5
23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

3. Don't forget Heb 4:12; when this happens emphasis is being placed on the whole person.

You can find soul in the Bilbe more than 400 times, separately from Spirit which appears more than 400 times as well.

4. Until you can show that these terms are not synonymous, capturing all of man, your data is misleading.

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by Eliyahu
Jn 11:

11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
- Soul Sleep

12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. - Body Sleep

13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: - Body Death

but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep - Body Sleep

Genesis 2:
7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed ( Ruach)

into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul ( Nepesh)

From the beginning Ruah and Nepesh have been distinguished.

TCGreek
1. It is a misuse of data to say that nephesh and ruach are always to be distinguished. Gen. 41:8 and Ps 6:3, shows that at times nephesh and ruach can be used interchangeably.

As instructive as that is -- you have ducked the point of John 11 entirely. There we see the PERSON is said to be "asleep" with Christ adding "I go that I may wake HIM".

We then see that the PERSON is also spoken of as being dead "Lazarus IS dead" not "Lazarus HAS a dead body". This is because the state of death that PEOPLE enter is exactly what Lazarus had entered. His decaying body "decaying tent" was dead and decaying and he was in the dormant state of "sleep" so Christ said "LAZARUS sleeps I go that I may wake HIM".

This is key to the undoing of the doctrine on "immortal man" and "immortal soul".

Hint: In 1Thess 4 Paul says that the saints who have died are "those who have FALLEN ASLEEP" and he calls them "the DEAD in CHRIST" not the "ALIVE in Christ".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Question for those who promote this idea of "the living dead" HOW does Christ prove the resurrection in Matt 22 to a hostile group that believes NOT in ghosts, spirits of the dead OR in the resurrection?

What say you? Can you defend your views from Matt 22 and still be true to the text and the fact that the PROOF is that of the "resurrection" rather than getting stuck in a mode where you are just trying to make an argument for "ghosts" or "the living dead" ??

in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

Your point is understandable.

I will paraphrase it again:

Jn 11:

11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
- Soul Sleep;

John 11:11-14 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

A quick reading of the passage indicates a play on words by Christ. Christ deliberately uses the word "sleep" as a synonym for death. The disciples are confused and don't understand his meaning because he uses the word metaphorically as he often does when he speaks in parables. Thus the answer of the disciples--The sleep will be good for him. The text says plainly Jesus spake of his death but they thought that he had spoken of ...sleep The meaning can't be any plainer. Sleep is a synonym for death, as it is used here. It is the way that Jesus used it. Because of the way that Christ used it, the disciples were confused until Christ spoke to them directly.

However, Jesus meant the Soul Sleep as it comes after the Body Death. Am I clear?
Jesus meant the Body Death which results in Soul Sleep. Therefore Body Death almost equals the Soul Sleep.

No. body death equals body death. Period. When the body is dead the spirit leaves and goes either to heaven or hell where it lives on for all eternity.
James 2:26 defines death:
"For as the body without the spirit is dead..."
When the spirit departs from the body, the body is dead. There is no soul sleep.
So don't base your theology on the confusion of the disciples. No matter where you look in Scripture you will find that we are spirit beings clothed with a temporal body. We await a resurrection with a celestial body. Between death and the resurrection, those that have believed will be in heaven. Paul expressed that desire many times in Scripture. Nowhere did he look forward to soul sleep, but expressed the thought of being immediately with the Lord right after death, not thousands of years from the time of his death when the resurrection would occur. The apostles are "with the Lord" as Paul expresses it. To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord; not to be asleep with your soul. It just doesn't say that.

 

[Eliyahu]

1. It is a misuse of data to say that nephesh and ruach are always to be distinguished. Gen. 41:8 and Ps 6:3, shows that at times nephesh and ruach can be used interchangeably.



2. pneuma and psyche are used interchangeably at times, making no distinction; Matt. 26:38 and John 11:33 make that unmistakably clear.



3. Don't forget Heb 4:12; when this happens emphasis is being placed on the whole person.



4. Until you can show that these terms are not synonymous, capturing all of man, your data is misleading.

All the other verses than Gen 41:8 and Jn 11:33 are not difficult to explain.

Psalm 6:3 - Souls are vexed as usual. Typical use.

Mt 26:38 - typical use of Soul as the Lord had such soul.

Heb 4:12 - clearly distinguish and it says the Word of God divides the Soul and Spirit asunder. Your own reference support my argument.
The verse refers to the knife used at the temple as it was double edged, used by the priests. We can remember this situation as mentioned in 1 Cor 5:5 as well, which separated the soul and the spirit of the fornicator.
If you equalize the souls with the spirits, then it can cause a huge chaos.

Jn 11:33 - This sounds like unusual, but it is not so when we see the cases of Hannah ( 1 Sa 1:15), Blessed are the poor in spirit ( Mt 5), Contrite Spirit ( Psalm 34:18), Broken spirit, a broken and contrite heart ( Psalm 51:17).

Gen 41:8 - This is not the only case where the spirit moved even in the minds of unbelievers like Sihon King of Hesbon ( Deut 2:30), eveil spirit from God troubled King Saul ( 1 Sa 16:15),
And Moses spake so unto the children of Israel: but they hearkened not unto Moses for anguish of spirit,( Ex 6:9)
the LORD stirred up the spirit of Cyrus ( Ezra 1:1). A typical case of this is also in Gen 45:27 where the Spirit of Jacob was revived.

And they told him all the words of Joseph, which he had said unto them: and when he saw the wagons which Joseph had sent to carry him, the spirit of Jacob their father revived.

Spirit of Jacob was almost dead because it was quenched at the news of Joseph's death, losing the hope, but it revived when he heard the news of Joseph.

Those sound quite unusual when we do not imagine that the Spirits can have feelings as well. However, the spirits can have the feeling and some of the feelings related to the fundamental of the person is connected to the spirit of the person.
This may be difficult to explain in human terms.

However, if we try to understand the distinction more closely, we can find that there is a certain rule or tendancy in using the Words of Soul and Spirit distinctively.
God differentiates the two words and doesn't use them interchangeably, the only persons who are confused between 2 usages are the human beings. In every case if we go into deeper, we can find the reason why God has chosen the word between Soul and Spirit. He is not confused, nor use them interchangeably.

 

[TCGreek]

As instructive as that is -- you have ducked the point of John 11 entirely. There we see the PERSON is said to be "asleep" with Christ adding "I go that I may wake HIM".

We then see that the PERSON is also spoken of as being dead "Lazarus IS dead" not "Lazarus HAS a dead body". This is because the state of death that PEOPLE enter is exactly what Lazarus had entered. His decaying body "decaying tent" was dead and decaying and he was in the dormant state of "sleep" so Christ said "LAZARUS sleeps I go that I may wake HIM".

This is key to the undoing of the doctrine on "immortal man" and "immortal soul".

Hint: In 1Thess 4 Paul says that the saints who have died are "those who have FALLEN ASLEEP" and he calls them "the DEAD in CHRIST" not the "ALIVE in Christ".

in Christ,

Bob

You have truncated the pericope to suit your own end. I propose that you read vv.12, 13, where it is unmistakably clear that Jesus was speaking of death and only use sleep as a euphemism.

 

[TCGreek]

John 11:11-14 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

A quick reading of the passage indicates a play on words by Christ. Christ deliberately uses the word "sleep" as a synonym for death. The disciples are confused and don't understand his meaning because he uses the word metaphorically as he often does when he speaks in parables. Thus the answer of the disciples--The sleep will be good for him. The text says plainly Jesus spake of his death but they thought that he had spoken of ...sleep The meaning can't be any plainer. Sleep is a synonym for death, as it is used here. It is the way that Jesus used it. Because of the way that Christ used it, the disciples were confused until Christ spoke to them directly.

No. body death equals body death. Period. When the body is dead the spirit leaves and goes either to heaven or hell where it lives on for all eternity.
James 2:26 defines death:
"For as the body without the spirit is dead..."
When the spirit departs from the body, the body is dead. There is no soul sleep.
So don't base your theology on the confusion of the disciples. No matter where you look in Scripture you will find that we are spirit beings clothed with a temporal body. We await a resurrection with a celestial body. Between death and the resurrection, those that have believed will be in heaven. Paul expressed that desire many times in Scripture. Nowhere did he look forward to soul sleep, but expressed the thought of being immediately with the Lord right after death, not thousands of years from the time of his death when the resurrection would occur. The apostles are "with the Lord" as Paul expresses it. To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord; not to be asleep with your soul. It just doesn't say that.

They too are confused. The Bible itself defines what death is. I thought that should be enough!

 

[Eliyahu]

John 11:11-14 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

A quick reading of the passage indicates a play on words by Christ. Christ deliberately uses the word "sleep" as a synonym for death. The disciples are confused and don't understand his meaning because he uses the word metaphorically as he often does when he speaks in parables. Thus the answer of the disciples--The sleep will be good for him. The text says plainly Jesus spake of his death but they thought that he had spoken of ...sleep The meaning can't be any plainer. Sleep is a synonym for death, as it is used here. It is the way that Jesus used it. Because of the way that Christ used it, the disciples were confused until Christ spoke to them directly.

Read Acts 20:10. The young man died ( 20:9-nekros) then Paul said his Pushke is in him ( v 10) which means his soul was in him yet though he died.

This shows the Body death is not the same always or immediately the same, but there can be a certain gap between 2 concepts, even though they are almost identical in most cases. Lazarus was dead, and his body was dead, but Jesus was talking about his soul, not about his body.

No. body death equals body death. Period. When the body is dead the spirit leaves and goes either to heaven or hell where it lives on for all eternity.

I showed you the case of Acts 20.

James 2:26 defines death:
"For as the body without the spirit is dead..."
When the spirit departs from the body, the body is dead. There is no soul sleep.

You may have misunderstood the place of soul sleep. Souls are asleep in the paradise. Souls are taken up to the Paradise along with the Spirit.

So don't base your theology on the confusion of the disciples. No matter where you look in Scripture you will find that we are spirit beings clothed with a temporal body. We await a resurrection with a celestial body. Between death and the resurrection, those that have believed will be in heaven. Paul expressed that desire many times in Scripture. Nowhere did he look forward to soul sleep, but expressed the thought of being immediately with the Lord right after death, not thousands of years from the time of his death when the resurrection would occur. The apostles are "with the Lord" as Paul expresses it. To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord; not to be asleep with your soul. It just doesn't say that.

Do you admit that Souls are separate from Spirits? Everywhere, Bible talks about the Sleep, and if the dead are awake, then the Bible couldn't say the dead are asleep. Souls are the ID of each person. The dead bodies are not resurrected as they are, but they are gone forever, and instead we will put on new bodies. Are the new bodies awaken? Were the new celestial bodies sleeping before until they are awaken?

Or is this true, that Souls are sleeping, and the old bodies are gone to destruction, new bodies are worn at the time of resurrection of the souls?

Why does John say that he saw " the souls of the beheaded" ( Re 20:4)

 

[TCGreek]

All the other verses than Gen 41:8 and Jn 11:33 are not difficult to explain.

Psalm 6:3 - Souls are vexed as usual. Typical use.

Mt 26:38 - typical use of Soul as the Lord had such soul.

Heb 4:12 - clearly distinguish and it says the Word of God divides the Soul and Spirit asunder. Your own reference support my argument.

1. I see you didn't get my inclusion of Heb 4:12.

The verse refers to the knife used at the temple as it was double edged, used by the priests. We can remember this situation as mentioned in 1 Cor 5:5 as well, which separated the soul and the spirit of the fornicator.

2. What version are you using to see that separation?

Jn 11:33 - This sounds like unusual, but it is not so when we see the cases of Hannah ( 1 Sa 1:15), Blessed are the poor in spirit ( Mt 5), Contrite Spirit ( Psalm 34:18), Broken spirit, a broken and contrite heart ( Psalm 51:17).

Gen 41:8 - This is not the only case where the spirit moved even in the minds of unbelievers like Sihon King of Hesbon ( Deut 2:30), eveil spirit from God troubled King Saul ( 1 Sa 16:15),
And Moses spake so unto the children of Israel: but they hearkened not unto Moses for anguish of spirit,( Ex 6:9)
the LORD stirred up the spirit of Cyrus ( Ezra 1:1).

3. I must confess, I'm not skilled of putting Scripture against Scripture.

A typical case of this is also in Gen 45:27 where the Spirit of Jacob was revived.

And they told him all the words of Joseph, which he had said unto them: and when he saw the wagons which Joseph had sent to carry him, the spirit of Jacob their father revived.

Spirit of Jacob was almost dead because it was quenched at the news of Joseph's death, losing the hope, but it revived when he heard the news of Joseph.

Those sound quite unusual when we do not imagine that the Spirits can have feelings as well. However, the spirits can have the feeling and some of the feelings related to the fundamental of the person is connected to the spirit of the person.
This may be difficult to explain in human terms.

4. Rather, we must ask ourselves why the use of ruach outnumbers that of nephesh, when they both refer to the whole of the inner person?

However, if we try to understand the distinction more closely, we can find that there is a certain rule or tendancy in using the Words of Soul and Spirit distinctively.
God differentiates the two words and doesn't use them interchangeably, the only persons who are confused between 2 usages are the human beings. In every case if we go into deeper, we can find the reason why God has chosen the word between Soul and Spirit. He is not confused, nor use them interchangeably.

5. Scripture says otherwise, but you have to find ways of explaining away Scripture to uphold your position.