When we die do we go directly to heaven??

[Eliyahu]

1. I see you didn't get my inclusion of Heb 4:12.

You didn't include it clearly.

2. What version are you using to see that separation?

MT( Jacob Ben Chayyim)-TR-KJV is my authority. I believe KJV is more accurate than any other versions, though I admit it is not flawless.
1 Cor 5
There you see the salvation of the spirit depite the destruction of the flesh of the fornicator. I don't know exactly how God will let his spirit survive without the flesh but we may imagine a certain minimum solution for that case. His spirit will be resurrected depite the fornication, though his flesh was given to the Satan. In that case, can we say that his body will be awaken? or his soul will be awaken?

3. I must confess, I'm not skilled of putting Scripture against Scripture.

I am not either. We must admit that there is a definite limit in human understanding, but what I want to assure is that God is not confused and He uses the words exactly, not interchangeably. You cannot replace Ruach with Nephesh, Nephesh with Ruach anywhere in the Bible.

4. Rather, we must ask ourselves why the use of ruach outnumbers that of nephesh, when they both refer to the whole of the inner person?

Maybe my understanding so far was that Ruach was used for the utmost, fundamental personality to be bridged or related to the Spirit of God, while Nephesh is used for humanity, for mortality.

5. Scripture says otherwise, but you have to find ways of explaining away Scripture to uphold your position.

This is the issue which have got astray quite a lot from the OP.

As I said, the OP was thought to be where to go after the death, like Purgatory or Paradise.

Then, we were talking about the soul sleep.

Now we are talking about the distinction between Soul and Spirit.
If you believe Nephesh and Ruach are interchangeable, then you have to fight the whole Bible.

However, if you raise the question only partly about it as they are not very clear to human understanding, then it is OK when we confess that the distinction is not always systematical to human understanding.

Finally I want to point out;
- Body is not awaken when the resurrection comes. Body is gone permanently, and another body will be put upon us.
- Souls are not sleeping in the dead bodies
- Souls are sleeping in the Paradise, in the bosom of Abraham.
- Some souls ( like the Martyrs) are resting under the Altar.( Re 6)
- Souls are saved, not the bodies are saved.

I already pointed out the sleep in Jn 11, 1 Cor 11:30, 1 Thess 4, etc.

 

[BobRyan]

You have truncated the pericope to suit your own end. I propose that you read vv.12, 13, where it is unmistakably clear that Jesus was speaking of death and only use sleep as a euphemism.

In John 11 it is clear that it is the "person" that sleeps and the "person" that is said to be "dead" -- and not "something the person has". Christ speaks of death for the PERSON as "sleep". The notion that this does not deal with vs 12 and 13 is not correct.

Quote:
John 11
11 This He said, and after that He said to them, ""Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I go, so that I may awaken him out of sleep.''
12 The disciples then said to Him, ""Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will recover.''
13 Now Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that He was speaking of literal sleep.
14 So Jesus then said to them plainly, ""Lazarus is dead,


IF we go with the Words of Christ in John 11 we will NOT have to go with the imaginary doctrine of those who would have John 11 read thusly -


11 This He said, and after that He said to them, ""Our friend Lazarus is AWAKE but his body has fallen asleep; but I go, so that I may awaken IT out of sleep.''
12 The disciples then said to Him, ""Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will recover.''
13 Now Jesus had spoken of Lazarus body and that IT was dead, but they thought that He was speaking of literal sleep of the PERSON.
14 So Jesus then said to them plainly, ""Lazarus is NOT dead – His body is asleep in death however,

I will go with the actual Words of Christ.

And as for Eternal Life "FUTURE" as we saw already it occurs for us in the "Age to Come".

Eph 2 - "we are seated with him in the heavenly places" by faith now - even though in reality this does not happen until the Rev 20 event.

1. Mark 10:30
   but that he will receive a hundred times as much now in the present age, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and farms, along with persecutions; and in the age to come, eternal life.
2. Luke 18:30
   who will not receive many times as much at this time and in the age to come, eternal life."

 

[Eliyahu]

So, the issue is about what is the ID of a person.

Is it the Body of the person?

Or,

Is it the Soul of the person?

2 Cor 5 tells us our bodies are like tabernacle or sometimes our bodies are like clothes to wear.

Are the Clothes sleeping, and are they the ID of the people? ( My driver license is my ID and it may be sleeping sometimes !)

What is equal to a person? Body=Person? or Soul=Person?

Mt 16:26
For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

Soul can be lost to the Satan and to the Hell. We must preserve our souls, not the bodies.


Whenever, God speaks about a person, it was addressed to the Soul.

Luke 12
19 And I will say to my soul, Soul, thou hast much goods laid up for many years; take thine ease, eat, drink, and be merry.20 But God said unto him, Thou fool, this night thy soul shall be required of thee: then whose shall those things be, which thou hast provided?

When Lazarus was awaken, his soul was awaken.
God is not confused between Body Sleep and Soul Sleep, Body Sleep is done everyday, for 7-8 hours, but Soul Sleep starts after the Body Death.

The following verses may be used for the objection to the Soul Sleep

Re 6:
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled

However, we must note that their cry is only until they should rest.

They are resting, which means the Sleep. So their cries may be the cries which the martyrs are crying when they enter the area under the Altar which is designed specially for the Martyrs as we read Heb 11:35.

Souls are not sleeping in the dead bodies but in the bosom of Abraham, in the Paradise.

 

[TCGreek]

You didn't include it clearly.



MT( Jacob Ben Chayyim)-TR-KJV is my authority. I believe KJV is more accurate than any other versions, though I admit it is not flawless.
1 Cor 5
There you see the salvation of the spirit depite the destruction of the flesh of the fornicator. I don't know exactly how God will let his spirit survive without the flesh but we may imagine a certain minimum solution for that case. His spirit will be resurrected depite the fornication, though his flesh was given to the Satan. In that case, can we say that his body will be awaken? or his soul will be awaken?

1. Then an exposition of 1 Cor 5:5 is in order.

I am not either. We must admit that there is a definite limit in human understanding, but what I want to assure is that God is not confused and He uses the words exactly, not interchangeably. You cannot replace Ruach with Nephesh, Nephesh with Ruach anywhere in the Bible.

2. You have appealed to our human limitations, yet you have expressed with certainty that ruach and nephesh cannot be used interchangeably.

3. I still see that you have not made any effort to deal with the biblical definition of death, as DHK pointed out.

 

[TCGreek]

In John 11 it is clear that it is the "person" that sleeps and the "person" that is said to be "dead" -- and not "something the person has". Christ speaks of death for the PERSON as "sleep". The notion that this does not deal with vs 12 and 13 is not correct.

Quote:
John 11
11 This He said, and after that He said to them, ""Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I go, so that I may awaken him out of sleep.''
12 The disciples then said to Him, ""Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will recover.''
13 Now Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that He was speaking of literal sleep.
14 So Jesus then said to them plainly, ""Lazarus is dead,


IF we go with the Words of Christ in John 11 we will NOT have to go with the imaginary doctrine of those who would have John 11 read thusly -


11 This He said, and after that He said to them, ""Our friend Lazarus is AWAKE but his body has fallen asleep; but I go, so that I may awaken IT out of sleep.''
12 The disciples then said to Him, ""Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will recover.''
13 Now Jesus had spoken of Lazarus body and that IT was dead, but they thought that He was speaking of literal sleep of the PERSON.
14 So Jesus then said to them plainly, ""Lazarus is NOT dead – His body is asleep in death however,

I will go with the actual Words of Christ.

And as for Eternal Life "FUTURE" as we saw already it occurs for us in the "Age to Come".

Eph 2 - "we are seated with him in the heavenly places" by faith now - even though in reality this does not happen until the Rev 20 event.

1. Mark 10:30
   but that he will receive a hundred times as much now in the present age, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and farms, along with persecutions; and in the age to come, eternal life.
2. Luke 18:30
   who will not receive many times as much at this time and in the age to come, eternal life."

What is the Bible's definition of death?

 

[Eliyahu]

This afternoon I made some search for the souls.

It was very clear and evident that the Bible equates A Person with the Soul.
When the Bible says the Salvation, it means the Salvation of Soul.
Cutting off from his people meant the cutting off of the soul from his people.

God identifies the person with the soul.

"To Be with the Lord" means " to sleep under the custody and protection by the Lord"

One example here,
Acts 2
27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Romans 13:1
Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

it is like, Let each person obey the higher powers.


Throughout the Bible, Souls are regarded as the Persons, when it doesn't specify either body or soul or spirit.

When the Bible said, each person sleep, it meant the sleeping of the soul of the person.
The souls of the Believers will go to the Paradise, to be with the Lord, which is the same as the Bosom of Abraham. Some group of believers like martyrs are protected in a special area called " Under the Altar" as we read Re 6. They are all with the Lord, and are sleeping or taking the rest until the full number of the believers are fulfilled.

I cannot explain better than the Bible itself on this issue, and therefore please check the site here about the souls:

http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=soul&section=0&version=kjv&new=1&oq=soul

This was not believed by the heretics, but by the Believers like Anabaptists. RCC would deny it strongly as they insist that they should pray to the Dead. Psalms quoted by Bob refutes this as well.

Other debates are unnecessary argument, I believe.

 

[TCGreek]

This afternoon I made some search for the souls.

It was very clear and evident that the Bible equates A Person with the Soul.
When the Bible says the Salvation, it means the Salvation of Soul.
Cutting off from his people meant the cutting off of the soul from his people.

God identifies the person with the soul.

"To Be with the Lord" means " to sleep under the custody and protection by the Lord"

1. Where's the Scripture for this?

One example here,
Acts 2
27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Romans 13:1
Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

it is like, Let each person obey the higher powers.


Throughout the Bible, Souls are regarded as the Persons, when it doesn't specify either body or soul or spirit.

When the Bible said, each person sleep, it meant the sleeping of the soul of the person.
The souls of the Believers will go to the Paradise, to be with the Lord, which is the same as the Bosom of Abraham. Some group of believers like martyrs are protected in a special area called " Under the Altar" as we read Re 6. They are all with the Lord, and are sleeping or taking the rest until the full number of the believers are fulfilled.

I cannot explain better than the Bible itself on this issue, and therefore please check the site here about the souls:

2. I thought John 11:12-14 tells us that this "sleeping" is plainly death.

3. Why can't we let Scripture define what death is? (James 2:26)

 

[DHK]

This afternoon I made some search for the souls.

It was very clear and evident that the Bible equates A Person with the Soul.
When the Bible says the Salvation, it means the Salvation of Soul.
Cutting off from his people meant the cutting off of the soul from his people.

God identifies the person with the soul.

"To Be with the Lord" means " to sleep under the custody and protection by the Lord"

1 Thessalonians 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Paul here identifies: body, soul, and spirit. You have only left room for the body and the soul, saying that the body and the soul make up the person. So what about the spirit of man? Is man's spirit somewhere out there in cyberspace?? Is it lost to the universe, part of the great Brahma?
God considers the spirit part of man also. It is the spirit that differentiates man from animals, as animals also have a soul (nephesh). It is the spirit that lives on forever. It doesn't sleep. It goes straight to heaven or hell after death. It is the spirit that you need to concentrate on, not the soul.

 

[Eliyahu]

1. Where the Scripture for this?



2. I thought John 11:12-14 tells us that this "sleeping" is plainly death.

3. Why can't we let Scripture define what death is? (James 2:26)

Please check the whole Bible which shows the usage of soul more than 400 times. The whole usages equates the Soul with the Person.
For example read Ezekiel 18:4. If anyone is equated with the Soul, then when the Bible says someone sleeps means the soul sleeps.

James 2:26 tells us the Body without Spirit is dead.
Yes, when the Soul departs with the Spirit from the Body, the Body is dead. The verse talks about the Body Death. It doesn't tell us the Soul is still active and do something.

John 11 tells us the Sleep of Lazarus. Body of Lazarus was not sleeping, it weas dead, but the reason why Jesus said he is asleep was because his soul was sleeping as the person is identified with the soul.

Read Re 6: the souls of the martyrs should rest. I hope you are not insisting they should act and move.

 

[DHK]

Please check the whole Bible which shows the usage of soul more than 400 times. The whole usages equates the Soul with the Person.
For example read Ezekiel 18:4. If anyone is equated with the Soul, then when the Bible says someone sleeps means the soul sleeps.

And here are the places where you don't consider the word soul, just because it isn't translated in the KJV as such. What do you do with these verses?

Genesis 1:20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, (nephesh) and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

Genesis 1:24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature (nephesh) after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.

 

[TCGreek]

Please check the whole Bible which shows the usage of soul more than 400 times. The whole usages equates the Soul with the Person.
For example read Ezekiel 18:4. If anyone is equated with the Soul, then when the Bible says someone sleeps means the soul sleeps.

1. If the Bible equates the sould with the person, then how could the person's spirit leave the body and leave the soul and body behind at death? What is your point then?

James 2:26 tells us the Body without Spirit is dead.
Yes, when the Soul departs with the Spirit from the Body, the Body is dead. The verse talks about the Body Death. It doesn't tell us the Soul is still active and do something.

2. You are compelled to rupture the body of your argument to come up with soul sleep. If the soul is the person, and at death, the spirit departs the body, Why then should we speak of the soul, since it's the sum of all its part, according to your previous reasoning.

John 11 tells us the Sleep of Lazarus. Body of Lazarus was not sleeping, it weas dead, but the reason why Jesus said he is asleep was because his soul was sleeping as the person is identified with the soul.

3. John 11 is clear and bright as when the midday sun of Palestine shines down. The disciples thought Jesus was speaking of sleep, but Jesus was speaking of death. There's simply no room here for the sleeping of the soul.

Read Re 6: the souls of the martyrs should rest. I hope you are not insisting they should act and move.

4. If they are sleeping according to your theology, why did they cry out, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" Were they talking in there sleep?

 

[Eliyahu]

1 Thessalonians 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Paul here identifies: body, soul, and spirit. You have only left room for the body and the soul, saying that the body and the soul make up the person. So what about the spirit of man? Is man's spirit somewhere out there in cyberspace?? Is it lost to the universe, part of the great Brahma?
God considers the spirit part of man also. It is the spirit that differentiates man from animals, as animals also have a soul (nephesh). It is the spirit that lives on forever. It doesn't sleep. It goes straight to heaven or hell after death. It is the spirit that you need to concentrate on, not the soul.

1. 1 Thess 5:23 clearly states 3 elements of a person and therefore one should not claim that the souls are the same as Spirit.

2. Spirit is the element where the Holy Spirit dwells, thru which the Believers can communicate with God, though our souls praise the Lord.
Spirit might have been broken due to the sin at the time of Adam, or become empty. But when we are born again by the Holy Spirit, the Holys Spirit starts to reside in the Spirit and we have the Spirit of Christ.
When the Believers start their life in the Lord, in the beginning the souls may have the tendency to yield to the body, the flesh, but as time goes on, the believer will grow to follow after the spirit, which means that the Soul follows the Spirit, and the Spirit starts to control the soul as the soul learns to obey the Spirit. At the end the grown-up Soul which is completely surrended to and combined with the spirit goes to the Lord after the death. The spirit of the believer doesn't go to the hell as it is filled with the Holy Spirit. The fleshly Christian believers have their soul yielding to the flesh and therefore commit sins often, therefore Paul admonished them to walk in the Spirit ( 1 Cor 2:14-3:4) Paul distinguished 3 groups, Natural Man ( Unbeliever), Spiritual Man, Carnal Man ( Fleshly Christian Believer). In case of Carnal believers their souls used to yield to the flesh desires of the body. So, our sould must follow the Spirit as in Gal 5.

3. It is general understanding that only the human beings have the Spirit and animals don;t have it but soul and body. However, if we read OT carefully, it mentions the animals have the spirit. But in any case I believe animals don't have the next life or any life after death, nor have they the ability to praise the God.

Eccl 3:21
Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

Unbelievers spirit can be stirred up:
2 Chron 21:16
Moreover the LORD stirred up against Jehoram the spirit of the Philistines, and of the Arabians, that were near the Ethiopians:

 

[Eliyahu]

TCGreek,

It seems that you don't read my post carefully. Please read the answers carefully. You are raising the questions about some of what I already explained.

1. If the Bible equates the sould with the person, then how could the person's spirit leave the body and leave the soul and body behind at death? What is your point then?

My post to DHK has already answered the point. Souls tend to yield to either flesh ( Body) or to Spirit.
Before the Salvation the souls are the slaves of the body, the flesh. As soon as the Holy Spirit comes into the spirit which might have been broken since the sin entered this world, or was empty, the spirit is filled with the Holy Spirit, then the souls of the Believers are revived. Then the combination and the linkage between the soul and the body is broken. Souls start to yield to the spirit indwelt with the Holy Spirit. When the person dies, his or her soul connected with the spirit goes to the Lord, and God raises the Believer because of the spirit indwelt with the Holy Spirit.
Souls are the ID of the persons but it doesn't mean that the soul is the only elements of the person.

2. You are compelled to rupture the body of your argument to come up with soul sleep. If the soul is the person, and at death, the spirit departs the body, Why then should we speak of the soul, since it's the sum of all its part, according to your previous reasoning.

Soul is not the sum but an element which represent the person and goes with the spirit. Souls depart along with the spirit and sleep.

3. John 11 is clear and bright as when the midday sun of Palestine shines down. The disciples thought Jesus was speaking of sleep, but Jesus was speaking of death. There's simply no room here for the sleeping of the soul.

Why did Jesus bring the word of sleep for the death of Lazarus? Wasn't it because some "one" or "some element" was sleeping as we read 1 Cor 11:30? Did Jesus say that some one sleeps despite nothing sleeps?

Jesus meant the Sleep of the Soul, because actually his soul was sleeping.

You are saying Death =Sleep, but death is death, and Jesus didn't say the Death in the beginning because He knew his soul went into the sleep.
Again, Jesus said " sleep" because something was asleep.

4. If they are sleeping according to your theology, why did they cry out, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" Were they talking in there sleep?

I already mentioned the exceptions of this in my premises.
Please read the first post of mine on this issue.
The sleeping souls may be awake at the command of God, and even the witches or sorcerers may be able to wake them up with the help of the Satan as we notice Saul calling Samuel after his death.

I already mentioned that the Martyrs cried only before they went into the Rest. God commanded they should rest until the full number of the martyrs are fullfilled.
The cries may be the ones when they entered the sleep which means the death of their bodies or some situation like the blood of Abel crying from the ground. But after they went into the rest, I believe they would not cry. If they are active, it means that they don't take the rest. They cried only before they entered the Rest, the Sleep.

 

[DHK]

3. It is general understanding that only the human beings have the Spirit and animals don;t have it but soul and body. However, if we read OT carefully, it mentions the animals have the spirit. But in any case I believe animals don't have the next life or any life after death, nor have they the ability to praise the God.

Eccl 3:21
Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

I would be careful about taking a theological definition from the book of Eccesiastes. Cults love this book and for good reason. However, they ignore the context--the context of the book. The author, Solomon, writes from the perspective of a philosopher, a man, looking at things from man's point of view, not from God's point of view. That must always be kept in mind when reading through this book. That is why the conclusion is so final, when at the end of the book he says: "Let us hear the whole conclustion of the matter...." After looking at life from every philosphical viewpoint available he then very concisely sums up the will of God, or God's viewpoint.
Thus in Eccl.3:21 is just the way that the average man looks at life. At death it is assumed his spirit goes upward and the animal's spirit goes downward. That is man's philosophy. But keep in mind, in God's view, an animal doesn't have a spirit. This is how man looks at things. What proof is there if you could dig down to the center of the earth that you would find the spirits of animals (if they could be seen in the first place)? Sounds a bit ridiculous if you think about it. It is just man's way of thinking about things.

 

[TCGreek]

Why did Jesus bring the word of sleep for the death of Lazarus? Wasn't it because some "one" or "some element" was sleeping as we read 1 Cor 11:30? Did Jesus say that some one sleeps despite nothing sleeps?

1. The Scripture already says what sleep means; it means death (John 11:12-14). Every other mention of sleep must be understood in light of that. To fall asleep is to die.

Jesus meant the Sleep of the Soul, because actually his soul was sleeping.

You are saying Death =Sleep, but death is death, and Jesus didn't say the Death in the beginning because He knew his soul went into the sleep.
Again, Jesus said " sleep" because something was asleep.

2. Jesus says to sleep is to die. I still haven't found that Scripture which says the soul sleeps at death.

I already mentioned that the Martyrs cried only before they went into the Rest. God commanded they should rest until the full number of the martyrs are fullfilled.

3. If at the point of death the soul sleeps, then why were they awake in this heavenly scene? Were they awoken from sleep to cry and then go back to sleep?

4. Rather than crying they should rest. Are we to understand this rest as sleep? Why should we understand this rest as soul sleep? What in the text calls for that?

5. Rather, "rest" from your "crying," but certainly not soul sleep, which must be imported to the text.
The cries may be the ones when they entered the sleep which means the death of their bodies or some situation like the blood of Abel crying from the ground. But after they went into the rest, I believe they would not cry. If they are active, it means that they don't take the rest. They cried only before they entered the Rest, the Sleep.

3.

 

[BobRyan]

In scripture "THE PERSON" is th one WHO sleeps

In John 11 "LAZARUS sleeps I go that I may wake HIM".

1Thess 4 "regarding THOSE WHO ARE asleep"

1Cor 15 "WE shall not all SLEEP but we shall all be changed".

No question about it- although the body DIES, decays and rots and never comes back as the old mortal decaying body -- yet the PERSON is said to SLEEP in death.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

I would be careful about taking a theological definition from the book of Eccesiastes. Cults love this book and for good reason. However, they ignore the context--the context of the book. The author, Solomon, writes from the perspective of a philosopher, a man, looking at things from man's point of view, not from God's point of view.

This is not true.

In some parts of Ecclesiastes Solomon will speak of the same context as Paul in 1Cor 15 about "this life only" and the fact that "if it is in this life only that we have hope we are of all men most miserable" but that does not condemn ALL of 1Corinthians - or even 1Cor 15 as "NOT from God's POV" NOR can this be used as a tool to ignore Bible truth in God's Book - Ecclesiastes. For "ALL scripture is given by inspiration from God AND IS PROFITABLE for DOCTRINE" 2Tim 3:16.

Remember God in Your Youth
Eccl 12
1 Remember also your Creator in the days of your youth, before the evil days come and the years draw near when you will say, "I have no delight in them";
2 before the sun and the light, the moon and the stars are darkened, and clouds return after the rain;
3 in the day that the watchmen of the house tremble, and mighty men stoop, the grinding ones stand idle because they are few, and those who look through windows grow dim;
4 and the doors on the street are shut as the sound of the grinding mill is low, and one will arise at the sound of the bird, and all the daughters of song will sing softly.
5 Furthermore, men are afraid of a high place and of terrors on the road; the almond tree blossoms, the grasshopper drags himself along, and the caperberry is ineffective. For man (mankind) goes to his eternal home while mourners go about in the street.

Notice also in vs 5 - instead of limiting the example to "one old man who dies" - it is "For mankind goes to his Eternal home" 12:5. Directly contradicting the notion that this does not deal with all mankind and does not deal with the subject of our eternal destiny and does not deal with the subject of death and exactly what happens.

Eccl 12

6Remember Him[/b] before the silver cord is broken and the golden bowl is crushed, the pitcher by the well is shattered and the wheel at the cistern is crushed;
7 then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it.


Notice again vs 6-7 - where the priority of God in the believer's life is again called into view

Eccl 12
Remember Him before the silver cord is broken...THEN the DUST will RETURN to the Earth and the spirit will Return to God who Gave it"

Recall from Genesis – (God formed man of the DUST of the earth Gen 2:7). And God Himself states "For You are Dust and to Dust you shall return". Gen 3:19 And God "is not speaking as a human" nor is He just talking about one "old man".

The spirit that returns "to God who gave it" is applicable to the "all mankind" context of vs 5.

This is open acknowledgement of God as the source of life AND of God's role in preserving our being - after death. Hardly a "human-only-view".



In Hebrews 9 we find the “For it is appointed unto man ONCE to die and THEN comes the judgment” – the advice that Solomon gives under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit – in conclusion to this book – is to tell us to seek God before we die.

8 "Vanity of vanities," says the Preacher, "all is vanity!"


The Vanity mentioned in this chapter has to do with the striving after wind in this life that chooses NOT to "remember the Creator in the days of your youth" – and Solomon wisely condemns that behavior.

Purpose of the Preacher

9 In addition to being a wise man, the Preacher also taught the people knowledge; and he pondered, searched out and arranged many proverbs.
10 The Preacher sought to find delightful words and to write words of truth correctly.
11 The words of wise men are like goads, and masters of these collections are like well-driven nails; they are given by one Shepherd.
12 But beyond this, my son, be warned: the writing of many books is endless, and excessive devotion to books is wearying to the body.
13 The conclusion, when all has been heard, is: fear God and keep His commandments, because this applies to every person.
14 For God will bring every act to judgment, everything which is hidden, whether it is good or evil.

(Now compare that to Rev 14:6-7)

"Fear God and Give glory to Him for the hour of His Judgment has come". Rev 14:6-7

2 Peter 1 "Holy men of old moved by the Holy Spirit SPOKE FROM GOD"

 

[DHK]

2. Spirit is the element where the Holy Spirit dwells, thru which the Believers can communicate with God, though our souls praise the Lord.

The Dwelling Place of the Holy Spirit
1 Corinthians 6:19-20 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.
--The Holy Spirit dwells within the body of every believer. This speaks of the Holy Spirit only.

The Nature of the Spirit of Man
Luke 1:47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.
--As Mary shows man has a spirit apart from the Holy Spirit. It was her spirit (small “s” in the KJV) that worshiped God. This was apart from the Holy Spirit. Our spirit is that part of ourselves which was created that we might have communion with God. It is a part of our person. It is the spiritual part. It is active. It can be active for evil or for good. Many unbelievers use their spirit to communicate with evil, even with Satan himself, if not with his myriads of demons. Nevertheless everyone is created with a spirit. We see Mary worshipping God when she says my spirit has rejoiced.

The Definition of Death
Luke 8:54-55 And he put them all out, and took her by the hand, and called, saying, Maid, arise. And her spirit came again, and she arose straightway: and he commanded to give her meat.
--The spirit in death had separated from the body. The girl had died, because of that separation. Death is separation. Physical death is when the spirit separates from the body. But note that the spirit came again, and then she arose immediately. Once the spirit was joined again with the body she came to life. Jesus gave her life. She was raised from the dead. This is consistent with all of Scripture.

James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
--Consistent with the above Scripture we find the definition of death here also—separation of the spirit from the body. This verse states it very clearly and there is no argument against it. Death is when the spirit separates from the body and the body lies there lifeless without the spirit. The spirit is separated. Death is separation in every case in the Bible.

The Nature of a Spirit
Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
--A spirit is formless, and has not flesh and bones. The disciples were not looking at a “ghost.” It was Christ in the flesh. Both unsaved and saved alike have spirits.

Purpose of our Spirit
John 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
--The purpose of our spirit is to worship God.

Acts 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
--Stephen refers to his own spirit, and calls upon the Lord to receive his spirit. Every man has his own spirit.

Acts 17:16 Now while Paul waited for them at Athens, his spirit was stirred in him, when he saw the city wholly given to idolatry.
--Paul refers to his own spirit. In this case his spirit was stirred or provoked within himself, and therefore he reasoned with those in the synagogue. But it was his spirit, not the Holy Spirit, though the Holy Spirit may have prompted him.

Acts 20:22 And now, behold, I go bound in the spirit unto Jerusalem, not knowing the things that shall befall me there:
--“The spirit” again refers to the spirit of Paul. He was so constrained to go to Jerusalem that the verse uses very strong language—“bound in the spirit,” as if he was so tied in bondage that he could do nothing else.

Acts 23:8 For the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, neither angel, nor spirit: but the Pharisees confess both.
--It seems like the Sadducees are like the SDA’s or vice versa. They denied the existence of the spirit. For the spirit is immortal. That is the part that they hated—the immortality of the spirit. But it is immortal, and will never die nor sleep.

Romans 1:9 For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers;
--Again Paul refers to his own spirit. This time it is in the context of prayer. In his spirit he prays for the people at Rome.

Romans 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
--This is an excellent verse which cannot be disputed. One can see both the Holy Spirit and one’s own spirit as separate entities in the believer in this verse. One might rightly ask the question: “Does the Holy Spirit bear witness with your spirit that you are a child of God?” If it doesn’t you have serious problems. It is one of the evidences of true Christianity. There is the Holy Spirit and the spirit of the believer. One bears witness with the other. They are both separate from the other.

1 Corinthians 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
--Here again is a very good verse teaching what the unsaved have. The unsaved have the spirit of the world as opposed to the believer who have the spirit which is of God. It is obvious then that both saved and unsaved alike have a spirit. One is regenerated; the other is not. But both have a spirit. The spirit is immortal. It does not sleep. At death it will go straight to heaven or hell, depending on whether you have received or rejected Christ.

2 Corinthians 6:2 (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)
--Why? Tomorrow may be too late.

1 Corinthians 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
--Again Paul refers to his spirit. It is his judgement that will be with the Corinthians when they discipline that erring brother.

1 Corinthians 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
--This time he refers to the spirit of the erring brother. Every man has a spirit.

1 Corinthians 16:18 For they have refreshed my spirit and yours: therefore acknowledge ye them that are such.
--Note: My spirit and your spirit. Both are mentioned. All have a spirit.

2 Corinthians 2:13 I had no rest in my spirit, because I found not Titus my brother: but taking my leave of them, I went from thence into Macedonia.
--Paul’s spirit found no rest when he couldn’t find Titus.

2 Corinthians 7:1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
--Our spirit must be cleansed. Thus this cannot be speaking of the Holy Spirit.

Ephesians 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
--The unsaved have the spirit of disobedience. They are born with it. They must be born again to receive the spirit of God.

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
--The soul and spirit can be cut asunder. This is a difficult verse for the SDA.
If the soul is the person, how can the person be cut asunder. Is not the spirit included in this operation? How do you account for the spirit here? The spirit here is the spirit of man.

James 4:5 Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy?
--This also is the spirit of man, the spirit that causes us to lust to envy. It is not the Holy Spirit, and yet he is writing to Christians.
I left out many more verses that I could have expounded on. There are so many of them.
These are but a few that you can answer for me.

 

[BobRyan]

1. 1 Thess 5:23 clearly states 3 elements of a person and therefore one should not claim that the souls are the same as Spirit.

This is true. In some contexts the soul and spirit are different.

Eliyahu

2. Spirit is the element where the Holy Spirit dwells, thru which the Believers can communicate with God, though our souls praise the Lord.

That is true in some contexts spirit of man refers to that part of the PERSON that has relationship to God -- it is always true when it comes to praise and worship. So when the bible says that in death praise and thanks to God ceases -- it is speaking about activity that was ALWAYS in the realm of spirit for man.

But sometimes this is also described as the soul as we see in MAtt 10:28.

When the Believers start their life in the Lord, in the beginning the souls may have the tendency to yield to the body, the flesh, but as time goes on, the believer will grow to follow after the spirit, which means that the Soul follows the Spirit, and the Spirit starts to control the soul as the soul learns to obey the Spirit.

Careful.

Often when both Soul AND spirit are used in the same text it is the soul that is the entire person (body and spirit) for example 8 SOULS went into the ark -- and the spirit of the person is that part that understands and worships God.

3. It is general understanding that only the human beings have the Spirit and animals don;t have it but soul and body. However, if we read OT carefully, it mentions the animals have the spirit. But in any case I believe animals don't have the next life or any life after death, nor have they the ability to praise the God.

Eccl 3:21
Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

Good point.

DHK
1 Corinthians 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,

... Every man has a spirit.

1 Corinthians 16:18 For they have refreshed my spirit and yours: therefore acknowledge ye them that are such.
--Note: My spirit and your spirit. Both are mentioned. All have a spirit.

2 Corinthians 2:13 I had no rest in my spirit, because I found not Titus my brother: but taking my leave of them, I went from thence into Macedonia.
--Paul’s spirit found no rest when he couldn’t find Titus.

And as you point out the spirit that "is stirred up" in a perosn is their emotion and desire - the focus of their intent.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Eliyahu]

I would be careful about taking a theological definition from the book of Eccesiastes. Cults love this book and for good reason. However, they ignore the context--the context of the book. The author, Solomon, writes from the perspective of a philosopher, a man, looking at things from man's point of view, not from God's point of view. That must always be kept in mind when reading through this book. That is why the conclusion is so final, when at the end of the book he says: "Let us hear the whole conclustion of the matter...." After looking at life from every philosphical viewpoint available he then very concisely sums up the will of God, or God's viewpoint.
Thus in Eccl.3:21 is just the way that the average man looks at life. At death it is assumed his spirit goes upward and the animal's spirit goes downward. That is man's philosophy. But keep in mind, in God's view, an animal doesn't have a spirit. This is how man looks at things. What proof is there if you could dig down to the center of the earth that you would find the spirits of animals (if they could be seen in the first place)? Sounds a bit ridiculous if you think about it. It is just man's way of thinking about things.

I don't disagree that the spirit of animals may not exist or is quite different from that of human being if any. I don't think this can be an issue at all.
However, Ecclesiastes are the part of the Bible. It is not the second class Bible. Also, Ruach of the animal is not found there only.
Ezekiel 1:20 and 10:17 says Ruach of the living creatures, though they are like the angels. The living creature (Hay) is translated as Beast in Gen 1,2. And Gen 6:17 can be translated differently if the choice of the translator is made differently.

to destroy all flesh, wherein [is] the breath of life ( Ruach of the Life).
All flesh includes all the animals in that context.

If the animals have the spirit, it must be different this way.
1) they go down to the earth, then are destroyed and disappear.
2) they are not eternal being, have no eternal existance, are not responsible for their behaviors, nor have the next life, while human spirits are eternal and responsible for their behaviors.
3) Spirits of the animal are not the place where the Holy Spirit dwells as they were not created in the likeness of God, and therefore they cannot worship God.
4) Therefore the spirit of animal if any is totally different from the spirit of human being.

This doesn't contradict the context of the whole Bible.