When will the Rapture/Resurrection occur?

[atpollard]

On the contrary, there are many passages teaching about the Antichrist, here are a few of them:

Daniel 9:24-27

I may be picking a nit, and I am not stating emphatically that there is no "Antichrist", but you (people who post on Eschatology in general) tend to play a little fast and loose with the term "Antichrist". You use a capital 'A' indicating a single, specific individual. However, there is no actual use of "Antichrist" as a proper name in scripture. [I know because I searched scripture and lost a bet.]

In Daniel 9:24-27 that you quoted it describes "a prince". In Ephesians 2:2 we have "the prince of the power of the air" who rules the world and is "the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience." If that is the same prince, then Daniel is speaking of Satan, not some man. So Daniel is only describing THE Antichrist if we approach it with the presupposition that there is a person called "the Antichrist".

 

[Darrell C]

The 'relevance' is that I shall likely be called to meet Jesus face to face long before either the Great Tribulation or the Rapture. They are not the 'time critical' events for me.

And there is the equal possibility you will be raptured. No chance you will see the Tribulation.

Rather I have:

2 Corinthians 5:6-10 NASB
6 Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord— 7 for we walk by faith, not by sight— 8 we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord. 9 Therefore we also have as our ambition, whether at home or absent, to be pleasing to Him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

This is my motivation

That's great. I will share in Paul's desire:


2 Corinthians 5
King James Version (KJV)

1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.


Which is to be raptured.

His point is that our spirit apart from the body is unclothed, and he desires to be clothed in that immortal body.

And I just don't know how pleasing it is to the Lord to publicly state one doesn't care about understanding Scripture. Eschatology has always played a large role in the Word of God, yet you have a lackadaisical attitude towards it.

I am not motivated by some questionable timeline created by stringing literal interpretations plucked from largely symbolic visions as if Pre-Trib vs Post-Trib was the 'shiboleth' of true Christianity.

It''s only questionable to you right now because of your refusal to study. And you mock symbolism, that's great. You will never understand Scripture with an attitude like that.

And whether there is a true Eschatology of True Christianity is a given. GIven in God's Word. He means for us to understand what is coming. Just because we do not know the time or the hour doesn't mean we don't know what's coming.


Revelation 1
King James Version (KJV)

1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

That's the whole reason for Revelation being given.

And don't let the fact that these things will take place rapidly fool you. It doesn't mean these things will happen soon, but that they will take place quickly, just as it is said here:


Luke 18:7-8
King James Version (KJV)

7 And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?

8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?


Replace "speedily" with "shortly" and you have the potential to impose an entirely different statement here.

I suspect you would have a hard time convincing Coptic Christians in Egypt that we are not in the midst of a tribulation.

Not at all, because all I would have to do is share with them the events of Revelation and they would agree, things are not as bad as they are going to be then. We are looking at half the world's population dying in a seven year period. Global persecution as opposed to persecution in a few countries.

Matthew 24:21
King James Version (KJV)

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.


The events of the First Century do not even meet the horrors of the 20th Century. The events of the Tribulation will be, as Christ said, worse than anything that has ever taken place, or ever will take place.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

I agree that the 'Millennial Reign' seems to be the 144,000 Celibate Jewish Martyrs, rather than the Christian Church, from the surrounding context.

We are not told who the Tribulation Martyrs are. They are likely both Jew and Gentile.

And we are not told that the 144,000 were or will be Martyrs. All we know is that they are sealed by God, which likely refers to their being Baptized into Christ, indwelt of God, and born again.

[Although the fact that their souls were living under a fire and calling out to God in an earlier chapter does cause me to wonder how literal/symbolic to take the 1000 year Kingdom].

You would need to be specific as to what passage you refer to.

Nothing in Revelation 20 suggests that the thousand years is anything but literal, and when we couple that with the many numerous prophecies teaching that God will restore Israel and establish a physical Kingdom Prophecy remains consistent.

... Did you mean "Pre Trib" (rapture) in this paragraph?

No. A Post-Tribulational view is not sustainable. Two primary reasons, first, it nullifies many prophecies, and secondly, it makes Revelation 20 make no sense. Revelation 20 clearly states a period of time after Christ's Return, and even if one wants to reject the Millennial Kingdom, they still have to account for the period of time between Christ's Return and the second destruction of God's enemies when Satan is released.

It just doesn't work.

The part you posted about the Millennial Kingdom seems to require an order of "Tribulation - Kingdom - Rapture".

Not at all.

Rapture, Tribulation (divided into two parts, forty two months with Two Witnesses ministering, forty two months with Antichrist empowered), the Return of Christ, the First Resurrection of Tribulation Martyrs, the Millennial Kingdom, the final rebellion (quashed), end of the current universe, the Great White Throne, new heavens and Earth created...

...the Eternal State.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

I may be picking a nit, and I am not stating emphatically that there is no "Antichrist",

I can only respond to what you say:

FYI: There is no "the Antichrist" in scripture, there are only "antichrist".

[1John 2:18, 22 NASB] 18 Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour. ... 22 Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son.
[1John 4:3 NASB] 3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world.
[2John 1:7 NASB] 7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist.

The fact is there is The Antichrist mentioned:


1 John 2:18
New King James Version (NKJV)

18 Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the[a] Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour.

Footnotes:

1 John 2:18 NU-Text omits the.


1 John 2:18
New International Version (NIV)

18 Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour.


1 John 2:18
New English Translation (NET Bible)

18 Children, it is the last hour, and just as you heard that the antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have appeared. We know from this that it is the last hour.


The statement is essentially "You have heard the Antichrist is coming, but...even now there are many antichrists."

but you (people who post on Eschatology in general) tend to play a little fast and loose with the term "Antichrist".

Do you consider Trinitarians to be fast and loose using that term?

Not all doctrines have to have a specific proof text. The Doctrine of Antichrist is built on many passages, it is just a basic teaching of Prophecy.

You use a capital 'A' indicating a single, specific individual.

Also use a capital B when calling him the Beast.

However, there is no actual use of "Antichrist" as a proper name in scripture.

We don't always see a capital D when we read of the Devil either. Antichrist is descriptive, just like devil. Satan is a proper name. We won't know the proper name of the man of sin, son of perdition, lawless one, little horn, the king of fierce countenance, the beast, the antichrist...until he is revealed. And we will have to watch from Heaven.

Because we won't be here when he is revealed.

It's just customary, when speaking about The Antichrist, to distinguish him from the many antichrists already at work. We have them, and The Antichrist spoken of in Prophecy, who is a specific person, the Beast of Revelation.

[I know because I searched scripture and lost a bet.]

Go get your money back...


1 John 2:18
New King James Version (NKJV)

18 Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the[a] Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour.

Footnotes:

1 John 2:18 NU-Text omits the.

Antichrist is properly capitalized here.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

In Daniel 9:24-27 that you quoted it describes "a prince".

Specifically the "prince that shall come." We know it isn't speaking of Christ because Christians do not...


Daniel 9:26-27
King James Version (KJV)

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


Nor did Christ strengthen the Covenant of Law (the only Covenant relevant to Daniel's People). And even if one wanted to try to make the Covenant in view the New Covenant, the obvious fact is that this is the Everlasting Covenant, so they would have to explain why He only strengthened it for a seven year period, lol.

In Ephesians 2:2 we have "the prince of the power of the air" who rules the world and is "the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience."

Daniel also uses "prince" to designate Angels. Satan is an Angel, so nothing out of place from a Biblical perspective. Paul is speaking of an angel as weel, a fallen angel, Satan.

If that is the same prince,

It's not.

Satan is not the "prince that shall come." He is already at work in the world and has been since the beginning. In view is one who is to come who will strengthen the Covenant of Law, which means he is probably going to allow Jews to worship as they did in the Old Testament. I think it involves a newly constructed Temple, and they will be offering up sacrifice again. And just as Antiochus Epiphanes defiled the Temple, even so will Antichrist. This will probably take place after he kills the Two Witnesses and stands in the Holy Place declaring himself to be GOd. Those under strong delusion will believe the lie and worship the beast.

then Daniel is speaking of Satan, not some man.

No, Daniel is speaking of a man. He will rule those who destroy the city and the Sanctuary:


Revelation 11
King James Version (KJV)

11 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

So Daniel is only describing THE Antichrist if we approach it with the presupposition that there is a person called "the Antichrist".

It's not a presupposition, its just basic to Eschatology.

Only those who seek to spiritualize all meaning out of Prophecy can deny that there is extensive teaching about this man in Scripture.


God bless.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I agree that the 'Millennial Reign' seems to be the 144,000 Celibate Jewish Martyrs, rather than the Christian Church, from the surrounding context.

The 144,000 is actually the same as the 'Great Crowd.' They both represent the elect of all generations. John 'hears' the number 144,000 (Revelation 7:4), then (v.9), he looks and sees 'a great multitude that no one could number.' 144,000 is the old covenant number (12 tribes) times the new covenant number (12 apostles) times 1,000 (all that there are- Psalm 50:10; 2 Peter 3:8 etc.).
144,000 is a symbolic number (as all numbers are in Revelation IMO) representing a number known to God. The great crowd is of a size 'which no man could number' but they both represent the same people.

 

[Darrell C]

The 144,000 is actually the same as the 'Great Crowd.'

Sorry, no, they are clearly distinguished in the text:


Revelation 7
King James Version (KJV)

1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,

3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.

6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nephthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.

7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.

8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.


Clearly identified as Tribes of Israel. 12,000 from each.


9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;


This group cannot be numbered, and are from all nations, kindred, peoples and tongues. Quite a different group from the 144,000, which could, and was...numbered.

The first group is on earth (v.3), the second group is in Heaven.

They both represent the elect of all generations.

No, they represent 144,000 Jews on the earth that are sealed by God prior to the unleashing of judgment, and those who had already died from all nations. Numerous Elect will be added to the final tally by the end of the Tribulation and the Millennial Kingdom.

John 'hears' the number 144,000 (Revelation 7:4), then (v.9), he looks and sees 'a great multitude that no one could number.'

Correct: two different groups.

144,000 is the old covenant number (12 tribes) times the new covenant number (12 apostles) times 1,000 (all that there are- Psalm 50:10; 2 Peter 3:8 etc.).

Where do we see a mathematical formula given in any of the relevant Scriptures?

144,000 is a symbolic number (as all numbers are in Revelation IMO)

Not symbolic, but 12,000 men from each Tribe listed. So we use addition, not multiplication. !2,000 times 12.

representing a number known to God.

And to us.

Just look at the passage again and you too will know.

The great crowd is of a size 'which no man could number' but they both represent the same people.

Amazing.


God bless.

 

[Yeshua1]

I think you'll find they do.
Acts 1:11 is the clearest, and the one that blows Hyper-preterism out of the water.
However, the only verses to mention a 'rapture' are 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17. They tie the rapture to the return of Christ in glory. We are in the tribulation right now (John 16:33; 2 Timothy 3:1). There are definite indications that things may get worse right before the end (Depending on one's interpretation of Revelation 11:7ff; 13:6ff); maybe they are doing so right now. But the Lord Jesus has not yet returned, so the 'rapture' is definitely post-trib.

that passage of the return of Jesus, and with the physical resurrection of all who died in Him put nails in coffin, and buries Hyper preterism!

 

[Yeshua1]

I may be picking a nit, and I am not stating emphatically that there is no "Antichrist", but you (people who post on Eschatology in general) tend to play a little fast and loose with the term "Antichrist". You use a capital 'A' indicating a single, specific individual. However, there is no actual use of "Antichrist" as a proper name in scripture. [I know because I searched scripture and lost a bet.]

In Daniel 9:24-27 that you quoted it describes "a prince". In Ephesians 2:2 we have "the prince of the power of the air" who rules the world and is "the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience." If that is the same prince, then Daniel is speaking of Satan, not some man. So Daniel is only describing THE Antichrist if we approach it with the presupposition that there is a person called "the Antichrist".

I would tend to see Him as the Man of Sin, and the beast also...

 

[Darrell C]

Be back in a minute, lol.


God bless.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Clearly identified as Tribes of Israel. 12,000 from each.

None from Ephraim and none from Dan, yet still twelve tribes.

 

[Darrell C]

However, the only verses to mention a 'rapture' are 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17.

Not entirely accurate.

We also see the implication of the Rapture being yearned for by Paul...with no mention of the Tribulation having to take place:


2 Corinthians 5
King James Version (KJV)

1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.


Easy enough to understand: Paul speaks of the body we are now in (our earthly house), and the "building of God, an house not made with hands."

That body is eternal, just as he teaches in 1 Thessalonians 4 and 1 Corinthians 15 (and in v.4).


2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:


"We groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with that house."

He further defines what he means:


3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.


Being "clothed upon" with that house we will not be "found naked," or in other words, we will not be spirits without bodies.


4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

"We in this physical body do groan because the flesh is burdensome. But we do not groan to simply be delivered from this body, where we would be "unclothed," but clothed upon with that body which is immortal, eternal."

Again, nothing about the Tribulation having to take place for us to be clothed upon with that immortal, eternal body which is our hope.


5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.


"God has created us for this very purpose, that we should dwell with Him eternally. He has given us the guarantee of our hope which is the indwelling of God."


6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:


While we are in this body we are absent from the Lord. I think it very important to remember his statement in v.4, "not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life." We do not simply desire to leave this body, but we desire that body we will receive at the Rapture. THat is when Paul teaches we, the Church (both dead and alive)...receive that body.


7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight)

8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.


We are willing to die, and to be with the Lord, but, we labor regardless in this body that we might be accepted of Him when we are judged.

Doesn't make much sense for Paul to be yearning for the glorified body if he thinks the Tribulation must occur first.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

None from Ephraim and none from Dan, yet still twelve tribes.

Doesn't affect the point made, there are still 12,000 from twelve Tribes, combined to make a numbered 144,000 Jews, as opposed to those without number from all nations, which would include Israel.

They are in Heaven, whereas the 144,000 are on the earth.


God bless.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Doesn't make much sense for Paul to be yearning for the glorified body if he thinks the Tribulation must occur first.

Why not?
In v.1, Paul is saying that if he dies, he will go to be with God as a spirit (Ecclesiastes 11:7). His clothing will be his dwelling with God (v.2). So while he is in his present body, he is 'burdened' by his infirmities, but actually, he doesn't so much want to be a disembodied spirit so much as to be 'further clothed' in a resurrection body at the return of Christ. So far as Paul was concerned, he was in tribulation (2 Corinthians 4:7-12), and to die would be gain, but living would be serving Christ.

I see nothing here that demands, or even suggests, a rapture, certainly not a pre-trib one.

 

[Darrell C]

They tie the rapture to the return of Christ in glory. We are in the tribulation right now (John 16:33; 2 Timothy 3:1).

Nothing ties the Rapture to the Return of Christ.

Both Old Testament as well as New Testament Prophecy describes the destruction of all unbelievers at Christ's Return.

I will just give a few passages to support this point in order to make this as short as possible:



Luke 17:24-37
King James Version (KJV)

24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.

25 But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation.

26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.

27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.


All unbelievers destroyed.


28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;

29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.


All unbelievers destroyed.

That is how it will be when Christ returns.


31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.

32 Remember Lot's wife.

33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.

35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.


And forgive me brother...I didn't say how much of the passages I would give...



Okay, the point is that in view is Christ judging the world, and it will be identical to Noah and Lot's day, where every unbeliever was destroyed.

We know that the "generation" of His (Christ's) day is not the generation that experiences the Tribulation, because they are the generation that rejected Him (v.25).

And I will forego posting Matthew 25 (as well as Ezekiel 39 and Revelation 19), where w see the Sheep and Goat judgment. All unbelievers are destroyed.

The primary point being that Revelation clearly teaches that Christ Returns, destroys all unbelievers, and just as He teaches in John 3...only those that are born again enter into the Kingdom (and remember that the physical Kingdom is the only Kingdom relevant to Nicodemus, because Christ taught him within the framework of the revelation he had, not the revelation we have).

Further, Revelation teaches one thousand years in which the Tribulation Martyrs reign with Christ, and the obvious truth is that one thousand years, even if one made the mistake of trying to make them figurative (and that is a mistake, just as spiritualizing the 144,000 is)...

...time has no meaning in the Eternal State.

Secondly, we do not see any mention of a rapture in Revelation except that of the Two Witnesses, who are put to death by Antichrist, raised from the dead, and caught up to Heaven (and this is obviously a rapture event because no man can enter Heaven in his natural body).

Third, we see that there is a great rebellion after the thousand years (when the rest of the dead are raised)...


Revelation 20:7-9
King James Version (KJV)

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.


...and the question we ask is...where did these unbelievers come from?

The answer lies in keeping Prophecy intact. If you simply keep the events in their proper place, we see that only born again believers enter into that Kingdom, and they produce offspring, and they are the ones who join ranks with Satan and are destroyed.

The point coming to its conclusion in that if the Rapture took place when Christ returned...there would be no physical people to produce this offspring. Glorified Saints will not be producing offspring, according to Christ...


Matthew 22:29-31
King James Version (KJV)

29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.

30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

There are definite indications that things may get worse right before the end (Depending on one's interpretation of Revelation 11:7ff; 13:6ff);

This...

Revelation 11:7
King James Version (KJV)

7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

...takes place at the midpoint of the Tribulation. The Two Witnesses are given a thousand two hundred and threescore days (forty two months, 3 1/2 years) to minister:


Revelation 11
King James Version (KJV)

3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.


The Beast is given 3 1/2 years also:


Revelation 13
King James Version (KJV)

1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.


We can't have these as consecutive time frames because no man can harm the Two Witnesses during their ministry:


Revelation 11
King James Version (KJV)

3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.


It is not until Antichrist is empowered that he has the power to kill them:


7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.


They are then raptured:


11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.


Again, in order for them to enter into Heaven they are likely glorified, which makes this a rapture event in all likelihood.

But the Lord Jesus has not yet returned, so the 'rapture' is definitely post-trib

Prophecy does not sustain that position.


God bless.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Doesn't affect the point made, there are still 12,000 from twelve Tribes, combined to make a numbered 144,000 Jews, as opposed to those without number from all nations, which would include Israel.

The fact that Ephraim and Dan are missing shows that 'they are not all Israel who are of Israel' (Romans 9:6). That there are still twelve tribes shows that 'all Israel will be saved.' Ephraim and Dan were the two tribes who were particularly given over to idolatry (1 Kings 12:28-29). But the whole thing is symbolic. There is only one people of God; He has made the two one (Ephesians 2:14); believing Jew and believing Gentile together.

That does not mean that there can't be a great revival among the Jews one day, but it does mean that they will be saved in the same way as the Gentiles-- by repentance and faith in Christ. I hope there is such a revival and that I live to see it. I also hope that there is a great revival amongst the Moslems, and there seems to be more sign of that at the present time.

They are in Heaven, whereas the 144,000 are on the earth.
God bless.

Indeed. The opposite of what the JWs say. But they are the same people. The 144,000 are those who have been 'sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise.........' (Ephesians 1:13-14; 2 Corinthians 1:22). In the vision of the Great Crowd, the promise has been fulfilled.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Nothing ties the Rapture to the Return of Christ.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 does.

Both Old Testament as well as New Testament Prophecy describes the destruction of all unbelievers at Christ's Return.

I will just give a few passages to support this point in order to make this as short as possible:

I agree with this. Think of the parable of the wise and foolish virgins. Believers are like the wise virgins waiting for the arrival of the Bridegroom. When the Bridegroom arrives (coming with the clouds) we shall rise up (be 'raptured') to meet Him. We will then return to earth with Him for the Marriage Supper of the Lamb, while the unbelievers are shut outside awaiting judgement.

Darrell, we have such disparate views on eschatology that I do not see us coming to agreement, but I do thank you for your clearly-expressed posts. The Last day will declare it. I try not to fall out with anybody who believes in a physical return of Christ in glory at the end of time.

 

[Darrell C]

Why not?
In v.1, Paul is saying that if he dies, he will go to be with God as a spirit (Ecclesiastes 11:7).

Right, as a spirit.

He clarifies the difference between receiving that eternal body from simply dying, which would be to be unclothed:


2 Corinthians 5
King James Version (KJV)

1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.


Clearly distinct results. Death would be to be unclothed. Yet he desires to be clothed upon with that body that mortality is irrelevant to.

His clothing will be his dwelling with God (v.2).

No, he is clear that the clothing in view is the glorified body.

And when we balance that with his other teachings, we know that we all, those of us in Christ...will receive that body at the Rapture.

So while he is in his present body, he is 'burdened' by his infirmities, but actually, he doesn't so much want to be a disembodied spirit so much as to be 'further clothed' in a resurrection body at the return of Christ.

Precisely.

So far as Paul was concerned, he was in tribulation (2 Corinthians 4:7-12),

We don't equate the Tribulation with tribulation.

In The Tribulation we have description of specific events which are followed by Christ's Return.

We also see description of tribulation which is the result of persecution for faith in Christ:


2 Corinthians 4:7-12
King James Version (KJV)

7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

8 We are troubled on every side, yet not distressed; we are perplexed, but not in despair;

9 Persecuted, but not forsaken; cast down, but not destroyed;

10 Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body.

11 For we which live are always delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.

12 So then death worketh in us, but life in you.


This makes his teaching in Chapter Five all the more relevant to desiring to receive the glorified body. Here he makes it clear that physical death is in view, which would mean being unclothed.

But The Tribulation has an entire Book devoted to its events. They are specific. And nowhere is the Church seen in any of those events.

and to die would be gain, but living would be serving Christ.

Right, to die is gain, because we would be with the Lord, but, see again Paul's desire and what is not his desire:


2 Corinthians 5
King James Version (KJV)

1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.


In other words...Paul doesn't want to die, he wants to continue ministering, but, that doesn't change the fact he yearns for the glorified body.

He doesn't imply "I wish the Tribulation would come so we can receive that body, he simply makes it clear that nothing need occur for him to receive that body.

I see nothing here that demands, or even suggests, a rapture, certainly not a pre-trib one.

The implication is clear unless one is biased against the point Paul makes.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

The fact that Ephraim and Dan are missing shows that 'they are not all Israel who are of Israel' (Romans 9:6).

That quote has nothing to do with this passage.

All Paul means is that not everyone of Israel has expressed faith as they should:


Romans 9:6-8
King James Version (KJV)

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.


In view is a statement denying salvation, or relationship to God through Heritage alone. It is no different than this conversation...


John 8:37-42
King James Version (KJV)

37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.

38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.

39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.

41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.

42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.


They appeal to Heritage. Christ's point is that they have failed to follow the example of faith Abraham expressed.

Paul also addresses the heritage of Israel, and the "children of promise" are those who receive the blessings of God. It is not just a matter of being born into Israel and boom, your good with God.

Paul clarifies why:


Romans 10
King James Version (KJV)

1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.

3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.


And none of this has to do with the 144,000. They are certainly all of Israel:


Revelation 7
King James Version (KJV)


3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.


"All" always means...all.


Continued...