When Would Covenant theology persons See Zechariah 14 fulfilled?

[Grasshopper]

Having said that I will also remind everyone that on more than one occasion I have said that every eschatological scenario has difficulties which threaten its credulity.

I agree. While I have come to the conclusion that the truth is on the preterist side, I'm not married to any particular view within preterism.

Personally, IMO full preterism offers the most difficulties of this kind.
Partial preterism (generally speaking) is far more credulous.

I find just the opposite, futurism is the weakest of all.

It seems to me that Isaiah 65-66 and related time line events are more in harmony with the millennium than the 2 Peter passage wherein is the difficulty.

Bingo! *Isaiah 65-66 cannot be harmonized with 2Peter 3 in a futuristic paradigm.

The 2 Peter passages IMO come at the end of the millennium, Isaiah 65-66 deals with the millennium itself at the end of which will come the final cleansing of evil and the final disposition of the evil one.

And this is the problem, futurism teaches 2 Peter 3 is the Second Coming, not the end of the Millennium.

This goes on into is the “eternal state” in which we all believe and for that which we look forward to in anticipation which is the ultimate "new heavens" and "new earth"

"Ultimate"? Are there more than one New Heavens and New Earth?

When Isaiah speaks of the “new heavens” and “new earth” I believe it points to the absolute end of all evil and evil personages, a renovation of matter, redemption of those of the second birth all of which is the ultimate end of the savior of the world - Jesus Christ.

But Isaiah speaks of curses and death existing in the New H&E.

Then comes the eternal state:

Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Doesn't sound like what Isaiah spoke of under a futurist interpretation.

Still, I understand that this interpretation has difficulties.

Your an honest man HankD. For me futurism collapses when you try to reconcile Is. 65-66 with 2Peter 3 and Rev.21.*

However, far less IMO than the full preterism theory which says that both Isaiah 65-66 and 2 Peter have both been fulfilled in the past.

Again, it not just full preterist, John Owen, John Lightfoot along with modern partial preterist:

http://americanvision.org/5523/the-promise-of-his-appearing-2-peter-3/#sthash.eVCQjk8C.dpbs*

 

[Yeshua1]

I agree. While I have come to the conclusion that the truth is on the preterist side, I'm not married to any particular view within preterism.



I find just the opposite, futurism is the weakest of all.




Bingo! *Isaiah 65-66 cannot be harmonized with 2Peter 3 in a futuristic paradigm.



And this is the problem, futurism teaches 2 Peter 3 is the Second Coming, not the end of the Millennium.



"Ultimate"? Are there more than one New Heavens and New Earth?



But Isaiah speaks of curses and death existing in the New H&E.




Doesn't sound like what Isaiah spoke of under a futurist interpretation.



Your an honest man HankD. For me futurism collapses when you try to reconcile Is. 65-66 with 2Peter 3 and Rev.21.*



Again, it not just full preterist, John Owen, John Lightfoot along with modern partial preterist:

http://americanvision.org/5523/the-promise-of-his-appearing-2-peter-3/#sthash.eVCQjk8C.dpbs*

Realised eschatology, pretierism, collaspes when one considers that whenever Jesus come back a second time, the resurrection of all saints, living and dead in christ occurs, and still waiting for that event!

 

[Grasshopper]

Realised eschatology, pretierism, collaspes when one considers that whenever Jesus come back a second time, the resurrection of all saints, living and dead in christ occurs, and still waiting for that event!

Not for a partial preterist. You need to learn the difference if you're going to get involved in these discussions.:thumbsup:

 

[HankD]

Not for a partial preterist. You need to learn the difference if you're going to get involved in these discussions.:thumbsup:

Partial Preterism has IMO far greater credibilty than "full" preterism in that there is much greater wiggle room for some of the "diificult to fit into the puzzle" details.

Nonetheless I admire and respect brother Tom as he (for the most part) does his homework and tries to present his view (you to grasshopper) based on scripture.


HankD

 

[HankD]

For me futurism collapses when you try to reconcile Is. 65-66 with 2Peter 3 and Rev.21.*

This is indeed the difficult area. But as you said, perhaps two new heavens and earth or better yet perhaps a phased approach where the new heavens and new earth of the millennium is the embryonic stage of conception and the 2 Peter version is the full birth version after incubation.

Just a thought.

HankD

 

[Iconoclast]

This is indeed the difficult area. But as you said, perhaps two new heavens and earth or better yet perhaps a phased approach where the new heavens and new earth of the millennium is the embryonic stage of conception and the 2 Peter version is the full birth version after incubation.

Just a thought.

HankD

Hello Hank,
This is indeed a good thought. It is true no matter which calendar you pick as your own.
Jesus as King with full Kingdom authority has come to earth....he has ascended to take the throne. It this way the new heaven and eart has at the very least staked it's claim.
John Owen and others see it as a change in the administration of the whole world....

It is worthy of consideration...

http://www.purelybiblical.com/ftp/N/New_heavens_earth.pdf:wavey:

 

[HankD]

Hello Hank,
This is indeed a good thought. It is true no matter which calendar you pick as your own.
Jesus as King with full Kingdom authority has come to earth....he has ascended to take the throne. It this way the new heaven and eart has at the very least staked it's claim.
John Owen and others see it as a change in the administration of the whole world....

It is worthy of consideration...

http://www.purelybiblical.com/ftp/N/New_heavens_earth.pdf:wavey:

Thanks Iconoclast, I agree that the "new" at least has a "charter" status, and we can all fellowship around that fact that Jesus Christ is Lord of all.

Philippians 2:10 That at the name of Jesus everyknee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;​

The URL you gave has an FTP function imbedded in it and causes a failure.

So if folks want to read these interesting (mostly preterist synopses) then they should use this URL http://www.purelybiblical.com/articles.htm

And then choose the "New heavens and earth - Various authors" selection.

Yes, it is an interesting read with some compelling points for people to read and consider.

My biggest issue with full preterism (all is fullfilled) is that there are no certain answers to several questions (and I suppose faith is sufficient):

e.g.

If this is the new heavens and earth why then is there still sin and death anywhere at all?
Murder, rape, pillage, holocausts, masacres of the innocent (abortion) continuing on and getting worse and worse.

Cemetaries keep filling up, etc.

This assumes then that the old heavens and earth is still here (and not passed away) since there can be no sin and death in the new.

Will sin and death go on into eternity?

How will this material universe end or will it?

Thanks Iconoclast.

HankD

 

[Iconoclast]

Thanks Iconoclast, I agree that the "new" at least has a "charter" status, and we can all fellowship around that fact that Jesus Christ is Lord of all.

Philippians 2:10 That at the name of Jesus everyknee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;​

The URL you gave has an FTP function imbedded in it and causes a failure.

So if folks want to read these interesting (mostly preterist synopses) then they should use this URL http://www.purelybiblical.com/articles.htm

And then choose the "New heavens and earth - Various authors" selection.

Yes, it is an interesting read with some compelling points for people to read and consider.

My biggest issue with full preterism (all is fullfilled) is that there are no certain answers to several questions (and I suppose faith is sufficient):

e.g.

If this is the new heavens and earth why then is there still sin and death anywhere at all?
Murder, rape, pillage, holocausts, masacres of the innocent (abortion) continuing on and getting worse and worse.

Cemetaries keep filling up, etc.

This assumes then that the old heavens and earth is still here (and not passed away) since there can be no sin and death in the new.

Will sin and death go on into eternity?

How will this material universe end or will it?

Thanks Iconoclast.

HankD

Thanks for putting up a better link! I have not made up my mind either way .
I try to think out each view as I know only one is correct.To understand how godly teachers have looked at it,and even when they differ does not in any way diminish the So great salvation we have:thumbsup:


I was actually stunned when I first read Owens view on this...as his work on mortification of sin,and on sin and temptation is really classic. It did make me reconsider just holding to one very wooden literal view however.

 

[HankD]

Thanks for putting up a better link! I have not made up my mind either way .
I try to think out each view as I know only one is correct.To understand how godly teachers have looked at it,and even when they differ does not in any way diminish the So great salvation we have:thumbsup:


I was actually stunned when I first read Owens view on this...as his work on mortification of sin,and on sin and temptation is really classic. It did make me reconsider just holding to one very wooden literal view however.

Yes, Owen has always been a good read for me especially on holiness.

HankD

 

[Covenanter]

When Would Covenant theology persons See Zechariah 14 fulfilled?

Why does everybody begin the study of Zechariah with the final chapter. Surely the preceding chapters are needed for a proper understanding of Zec. 14 ?!?!?!?

Haggai, Zechariah & Malachi are the only prophetic books written after the return. They deal with the problems, hopes & fears of the returned Jews. See Ezra 5:1, Ezra 6:14

Zechariah provides many prophecies that directly apply to Jesus, particularly the final week of his life on earth. Also he looks beyond the cross to see Christ in glory.

Consideration of this passage should precede Zec. 14 -

Zec. 2:10 “Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion! For behold, I am coming and I will dwell in your midst,” says the Lord. 11 “Many nations shall be joined to the Lord in that day, and they shall become My people. And I will dwell in your midst. Then you will know that the Lord of hosts has sent Me to you. 12 And the Lord will take possession of Judah as His inheritance in the Holy Land, and will again choose Jerusalem. 13 Be silent, all flesh, before the Lord, for He is aroused from His holy habitation!”​

 

[Martin Marprelate]

has that happened already?

I don't believe so. I would associated Zech 14 with Revelation 20:7-10.

 

[Covenanter]

I don't believe so. I would associated Zech 14 with Revelation 20:7-10.

The reason I quoted Zec. 2 was that that is a summary of the Covenant Gospel - the inclusion of the nations as "my people" and the eternal dwelling of the Lord with his people in the Jerusalem of prophecy - the eternal city of God, not:

the Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children— 26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all.​

God's purposes are not for a millennial "cat & mouse" game with Israel in a yet future millennium.

We'll come to Zec. 14, but NOT until we've considered the prophecies leading up to it.

 

[agedman]

Zechariah uses the word(s) translated "in that day".

However, DO NOT TAKE each one as sequential as if is a time line.

A consideration may be to take the "in that day" as an accumulation of a set of things that will take place at a certain time or period of time. Then states another accumulation. They may or may not follow sequentially, some may, and others overlap, perhaps reoccurring.

 

[Iconoclast]

Zechariah uses the word(s) translated "in that day".

However, DO NOT TAKE each one as sequential as if is a time line.

A consideration may be to take the "in that day" as an accumulation of a set of things that will take place at a certain time or period of time. Then states another accumulation. They may or may not follow sequentially, some may, and others overlap, perhaps reoccurring.

Do you work out either scenario?
What would the passage mean if in that day,was in that day? What would be the teaching from the book, without a long gap inserted in it?

 

[agedman]

Do you work out either scenario?
What would the passage mean if in that day,was in that day? What would be the teaching from the book, without a long gap inserted in it?

When our Lord read the Scripture in the temple, he stopped mid point of a revelation, and said, "Today this Scripture is fulfilled in your hearing."

There are those "this day" fulfillments that have been, are being, and will be fulfilled.

As you know, prophecy was not just telling the future without some instruction, warning, encouragement, ... to those whom the prophecy was directed.

When reading any prophecy, fulfilled or not, it is directed to a specific person or group.

You and I both have met folks who would grab any Scripture and claim it as there own.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

The reason I quoted Zec. 2 was that that is a summary of the Covenant Gospel - the inclusion of the nations as "my people" and the eternal dwelling of the Lord with his people in the Jerusalem of prophecy - the eternal city of God, not:

the Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children— 26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all.​

God's purposes are not for a millennial "cat & mouse" game with Israel in a yet future millennium.

We'll come to Zec. 14, but NOT until we've considered the prophecies leading up to it.

Zech 14 is actually the subject of the O.P., so I've come to it already.

 

[Covenanter]

We'll come to Zec. 14, but NOT until we've considered the prophecies leading up to it.

Zech 14 is actually the subject of the O.P., so I've come to it already.

Yes but it doesn't stand alone as the futurists seem to think.

Zec. 9:9-17 Begins the series of prophecies, many of which are quoted in the Gospels as fulfilled during the last week of Jesus ministry on earth.

Jesus acclaimed entry was certainly the literal fulfilment of v. 9, & his message of peace in v. 10b, but we need a figurative fulfilment for v. 10a.

Vs 11 & 12 can readily be understood as referring to the Gospel proclamation, but 13-17 must be a challenge to the literalists.

V. 16 is a wonderful fulfilment of the covenant promise of Ex. 19 also seen by Peter:

Ex. 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be a special treasure to Me above all people; for all the earth is Mine. 6 And you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’

Zec. 9:16 The Lord their God will save them in that day,
As the flock of His people.
For they shall be like the jewels of a crown,
Lifted like a banner over His land—

1 Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; 10 who once were not a people but are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy.​

 

[Covenanter]

Zec. 10 & 11 anticipate Jesus' teaching in John 10 about false shepherds & himself being the good Shepherd. The Jews of the dispersion will be gathered by the Gospel.

In Zec. 11 continues the sheep & shepherds theme, with Jesus dismissing the wicked shepherds - Jewish leaders.

11:12-13 is quoted in the Gospels but was not fulfilled literally. Jesus was sold for 30 pieces of silver, but did not receive it as wages. The priests used it to buy the potter's field to bury strangers. (Mat. 27:3-9) Matthew quotes Jeremiah. We can see fulfilment, but it is NOT literal.

Zec. 11:12 Then I said to them, “If it is agreeable to you, give me my wages; and if not, refrain.” So they weighed out for my wages thirty pieces of silver.
13 And the Lord said to me, “Throw it to the potter”—that princely price they set on me. So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them into the house of the Lord for the potter.

Jer. 32:6 And Jeremiah said, “The word of the Lord came to me, saying, 7 ‘Behold, Hanamel the son of Shallum your uncle will come to you, saying, “Buy my field which is in Anathoth, for the right of redemption is yours to buy it.”’ 8 Then Hanamel my uncle’s son came to me in the court of the prison according to the word of the Lord, and said to me, ‘Please buy my field that is in Anathoth, which isin the country of Benjamin; for the right of inheritance is yours, and the redemption yours; buy it for yourself.’ Then I knew that this was the word of the Lord. 9 So I bought the field from Hanamel, the son of my uncle who was in Anathoth, and weighed out to him the money—seventeen shekels of silver.

Mat. 27:9 Then was fulfilled what was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet, saying, “And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the value of Him who was priced, whom they of the children of Israel priced, 10 and gave them for the potter’s field, as the Lord directed me.”​

The worthless shepherds continue for a time, deceiving the Jews who reject the Gospel.

 

[Covenanter]

Zec. 12 is a challenge! Even for the futurists!
I suggest Jerusalem is the heavenly city of God, whose godly inhabitants are to this day under attack, & to this day overcoming the wicked by the Gospel, & even by their death. Verse 10 has its fulfilment at Pentecost when the Jews see with understanding the pierced One. And vast numbers of Jews mourn & repent.

Zec. 12:10 “And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.

Acts 2:17 ‘And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God,
That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh;
Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
Your young men shall see visions,
Your old men shall dream dreams.
18 And on My menservants and on My maidservants
I will pour out My Spirit in those days;
And they shall prophesy.
19 I will show wonders in heaven above
And signs in the earth beneath:
Blood and fire and vapor of smoke.
20 The sun shall be turned into darkness,
And the moon into blood,
Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord.
21 And it shall come to pass
That whoever calls on the name of the Lord
Shall be saved.’
......
36 “Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”
37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?”​

The answer is given in Zec. 13

Zec. 13:1 In that day a fountain shall be opened for the house of David and for the inhabitants of Jerusalem, for sin and for uncleanness.

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.”​

 

[Covenanter]

Zec. 13 begins with Gospel baptism - in the name of Jesus - for Jerusalem, for sin & uncleanness.

It continues with the end of prophetic ministry - prophecy is fulfilled in the One whose hands were pieced - in the house of his people.

Jesus himself quotes 13:7, the disciples were scattered in Gethsemane. Happily they were soon regathered & recommissioned after the resurrection.

But we see a great divide with God's warning of judgement. 2/3 will perish & 1/3 be delivered. This indicates that about 1/3 of the Jews would be saved by the Gospel before the AD 70 destruction. Little ones would be in their 40s by AD 70. The judgment on this generation of those who rejected their Messiah would certainly fall.

The 1/3 would receive the full New Covenant status:

Zec. 13:9 I will bring the one–third through the fire,
Will refine them as silver is refined,
And test them as gold is tested.
They will call on My name,
And I will answer them.
I will say, ‘This is My people’;
And each one will say, ‘The Lord is my God.’”​

That anticipates Heb. 8:

Heb. 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.​

Now we can look at Zechariah 14.