When Would Covenant theology persons See Zechariah 14 fulfilled?

[Yeshua1]

Zec. 13 begins with Gospel baptism - in the name of Jesus - for Jerusalem, for sin & uncleanness.

It continues with the end of prophetic ministry - prophecy is fulfilled in the One whose hands were pieced - in the house of his people.

Jesus himself quotes 13:7, the disciples were scattered in Gethsemane. Happily they were soon regathered & recommissioned after the resurrection.

But we see a great divide with God's warning of judgement. 2/3 will perish & 1/3 be delivered. This indicates that about 1/3 of the Jews would be saved by the Gospel before the AD 70 destruction. Little ones would be in their 40s by AD 70. The judgment on this generation of those who rejected their Messiah would certainly fall.

The 1/3 would receive the full New Covenant status:

Zec. 13:9 I will bring the one–third through the fire,
Will refine them as silver is refined,
And test them as gold is tested.
They will call on My name,
And I will answer them.
I will say, ‘This is My people’;
And each one will say, ‘The Lord is my God.’”​

That anticipates Heb. 8:

Heb. 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.​

Now we can look at Zechariah 14.

That passage has yet to be fulfilled!

 

[Covenanter]

Y1 - How dare you assert "That passage has yet to be fulfilled!" in response to my post on Zec. 13?
Jesus said:

Mat. 26:31 Then Jesus said to them, “All of you will be made to stumble because of Me this night, for it is written:

‘I will strike the Shepherd,
And the sheep of the flock will be scattered.’
​

Zec. 13:7 “Awake, O sword, against My Shepherd,
Against the Man who is My Companion,”
Says the Lord of hosts.
“Strike the Shepherd,
And the sheep will be scattered;​

 

[kyredneck]

Y1 - How dare you assert "That passage has yet to be fulfilled!" in response to my post on Zec. 13?
Jesus said:

Mat. 26:31 Then Jesus said to them, “All of you will be made to stumble because of Me this night, for it is written:

‘I will strike the Shepherd,
And the sheep of the flock will be scattered.’
​

Zec. 13:7 “Awake, O sword, against My Shepherd,
Against the Man who is My Companion,”
Says the Lord of hosts.
“Strike the Shepherd,
And the sheep will be scattered;​

Lol, it's from years of thoughtless, conditioned, 'knee jerk', quips made in defense of his fairy tale eschatology. Never mind what the scriptures say, or, what your posts say for that matter.

 

[Covenanter]

That passage has yet to be fulfilled!

May I suggest you carefully, prayerfully read Zec. chapters 9 -13, & my posts 37 - 40 before any more totally superficial tweets.

I checked your last 40 posts on your profile & ONLY ONE has a Scripture reference.

I'm getting to Zec. 14, but you wouldn't want a superficial tweet type post to explain a complex prophecy, now would you ?!?!?!?

 

[Yeshua1]

Much of what you write though is totally based upon you needing the scriptures to be understand that way, in order to make your theology work, and not what it actually means though!

 

[Covenanter]

"Yes..." - I understand OC prophecy by its fulfilment in the NC Scriptures.

Please consider my posts chapter by chapter, & explain the "what it actually means."

 

[Covenanter]

Zechariah 14 follows 13 chapters encouraging those returned from the exile with Zerubbabel & Jeshua. They are rebuilding temple & city in accordance with the prophecies of the earlier prophets.

Some of the prophecies have references in Revelation, but specific prophecies relate to the last week of Jesus' life, & are quoted in the Gospels.

Others relate to the controversy seen in the NC Scriptures between carnal Israelites & Gospel believers. Do Jerusalem & Israel in context refer to the earthly entities, or to the spiritual, eternal entity as discussed in detail by Paul in Galatians 4?

Gal. 4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise. 29 But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now. 30 Nevertheless what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.” 31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman but of the free.​

The citizens of earthly Jerusalem are at war, persecuting the citizens of heavenly Jerusalem.

Zechariah 14:1-2 describes the war against the earthly Jerusalem in AD 70, & the protection of the believing remnant in danger from the unbelievers in Jerusalem & the invaders. There are in the chapter a carnal people & spiritual people. We need to interpret this in terms of the realisation of the prophecy in the first century, according to Jesus' Olivet prophecy.

Daniel 9, Gabriel's 70 weeks prophecy, also describes the salvation of the people of God, & the destruction & desolation of city & sanctuary.

Taken as narrative the sequence of events is confusing, but we can see in the light of first century history. Many OT prophecies of judgment of nations are gives in terms way beyond literal fulfilment.

Verses 3-5 describe the LORD's presence & activity during the siege; the mount of Olives being split to allow the believers to flee. Thus the Lord my God will come, And all the saints with You.

There is no need to interpret this as the second coming/return of the Lord but as his presence with his people, protecting them from the great tribulation. I am with you always.

Verses 6-7 describe something similar to the protection of the Israelites fleeing from the Egyptians:

Exo 14:20 - And it came between the camp of the Egyptians and the camp of Israel; and it was a cloud and darkness to them, but it gave light by night to these: so that the one came not near the other all the night.​

Verse 8 describes the spread of the Gospel in the power of the Holy Spirit - living water.

Verse 9 - while Jerusalem & the temple stood, the church of Jesus had a rival entity - Old Covenant Judaism. Peter reports the scoffers mocking Jesus' prophecy:

2 Peter 3:1 Beloved, I now write to you this second epistle (in both of which I stir up your pure minds by way of reminder), 2 that you may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us, the apostles of the Lord and Saviour, 3 knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts, 4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation.”​

Paul wrote to the Thessalonians:

1 Thes. 2:Beloved, I now write to you this second epistle (in both of which I stir up your pure minds by way of reminder), 2 that you may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us, the apostles of the Lord and Saviour, 3 knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts, 4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation.”​

Once the city is destroyed, the Lord Jesus Christ stands without a rival.

The remaining verses relate to the heavenly city. Needs another post after you have all commented on this one.

And "Yes" no one line tweets.

 

[Covenanter]

Does the total silence indicate agreement - or am I now "ignored" by everyone?

Or are my posts unanswerable?

Ian

 

[David Kent]

Realised eschatology, pretierism, collaspes when one considers that whenever Jesus come back a second time, the resurrection of all saints, living and dead in christ occurs, and still waiting for that event!

That post seems utter nonsense to me, I just don't know what you are talking about. Most vague posts, I can usually work out but yours is beyond me.

 

[David Kent]

Much of what you write though is totally based upon you needing the scriptures to be understand that way, in order to make your theology work, and not what it actually means though!

Applies to futurists as much or more so. Or perhaps not as you don't need scriptures to make your theology Work.
ie Daniel 9 is about the Antichrist, but he is not he is not mentioned in the chapter. "Jesus is coming to the air." Can you show a scripture that says that?

 

[Yeshua1]

Applies to futurists as much or more so. Or perhaps not as you don't need scriptures to make your theology Work.
ie Daniel 9 is about the Antichrist, but he is not he is not mentioned in the chapter. "Jesus is coming to the air." Can you show a scripture that says that?

How about Paul and John? Both have Jesus returning in a physical form and literal sense in the air, same thing-the 2 Angels stated in Acts, correct?

 

[Covenanter]

Covenanter you strain away at the details of some passages (Luke 21:24;Romans 15:25) but gloss over Zechariah 14completely.

Zechariah 14
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

When did this happen in Jesus ministry!?

HankD

I think you mean Romans 11:25 not Romans 15:25

Zec. 14 comes at the end of a book of prophecies directly relating to Jesus & his ministry, particularly his last week.

I did consider Zec. 9-13 before I got to 14. I will assume you have read my previous posts and are in substantial agreement. My approach is basically to take my understanding from the fulfilment we read in the Gospels, Acts & prophesied up to AD 70, with Revelation in view which I understand to be written before 70, & largely relate to the destruction.

I would think - hope - that regardless of our understanding of prophecy, everyone will have problems of interpretation. It's too easy just to say - "It hasn't been fulfilled in history, therefore it's all to do with the tribulation & the millennium." That is no interpretation at all.

Covenanter IMO You glossed over the passage I asked you to consider

3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

This is all i could find concerning the given passage.


It seems you have spiritualized this portion of scripture.

I take it as a fulfillment of prophecy:

Acts 1
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.

The promised visible literal bodily return of Jesus Christ to the place of His ascension - the Mount of Olives.

HankD

How precise is in like manner ? Should we expect Jesus to descend physically, as a man, & stand on the MoO? Compare that with Paul's revelation in 1 Thes. 4:

16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.​

Or Peter's in 2 P3

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. 11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.​

I see no problem with an understanding of Jesus coming in the clouds to the MoO to escort his people from Jerusalem prior to the destruction, as he said he would - Mat. 24, 2 Thes. 2, Rev. 1:7, not forgetting of course his presence in the pillar of cloud to escort the Israelites out of Egypt, & owning the tabernacle & temple. Exodus 40:34-38

I see insoluble problems with the idea of a literal understanding which would see the Lord Jesus in human form fighting & killing his enemies - with the sword of his mouth ??? See also Isaiah 49

Paul & Hebrews explain all -

Eph. 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God;

Heb. 4:12 For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.​

 

[HankD]

I think you mean Romans 11:25 not Romans 15:25

Zec. 14 comes at the end of a book of prophecies directly relating to Jesus & his ministry, particularly his last week.

I did consider Zec. 9-13 before I got to 14. I will assume you have read my previous posts and are in substantial agreement. My approach is basically to take my understanding from the fulfilment we read in the Gospels, Acts & prophesied up to AD 70, with Revelation in view which I understand to be written before 70, & largely relate to the destruction.

I would think - hope - that regardless of our understanding of prophecy, everyone will have problems of interpretation. It's too easy just to say - "It hasn't been fulfilled in history, therefore it's all to do with the tribulation & the millennium." That is no interpretation at all.



How precise is in like manner ? Should we expect Jesus to descend physically, as a man, & stand on the MoO? Compare that with Paul's revelation in 1 Thes. 4:

16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.​

Or Peter's in 2 P3

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. 11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.​

I see no problem with an understanding of Jesus coming in the clouds to the MoO to escort his people from Jerusalem prior to the destruction, as he said he would - Mat. 24, 2 Thes. 2, Rev. 1:7, not forgetting of course his presence in the pillar of cloud to escort the Israelites out of Egypt, & owning the tabernacle & temple. Exodus 40:34-38

I see insoluble problems with the idea of a literal understanding which would see the Lord Jesus in human form fighting & killing his enemies - with the sword of his mouth ??? See also Isaiah 49

Paul & Hebrews explain all -

Eph. 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God;

Heb. 4:12 For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.​

We disagree.

HankD

 

[Covenanter]

We disagree.

HankD

That is NOT good enough - what do you believe?
How do YOU interpret Zec. 14 ?
What could I have posted for you to respond - I agree ??

 

[HankD]

That is NOT good enough - what do you believe?
How do YOU interpret Zec. 14 ?
What could I have posted for you to respond - I agree ??

That the promised visible literal bodily return of Jesus Christ to the place of His ascension - the Mount of Olives is a future fulfillment of Acts 1:11-12.

Zechariah 3
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

The promised visible literal bodily return of Jesus Christ to the place of His ascension

Acts 1
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.

The promised visible literal bodily return of Jesus Christ to the place of His ascension - the Mount of Olives.

HankD

 

[prophecy70]

I would think - hope - that regardless of our understanding of prophecy, everyone will have problems of interpretation. It's too easy just to say - "It hasn't been fulfilled in history, therefore it's all to do with the tribulation & the millennium." That is no interpretation at all.

No truer words have ever been spoken.

Im currently listening to some commentaries on Zech right now.

Most Futurist commentaries are splitting Chapter 13 verse 7 and taking the last sentence "and I will turn my hand against the little ones" and making that the divide between past and future.

So yes, what you can not explain, throw it into the future.

 

[HankD]

No truer words have ever been spoken.

Im currently listening to some commentaries on Zech right now.

Most Futurist commentaries are splitting Chapter 13 verse 7 and taking the last sentence "and I will turn my hand against the little ones" and making that the divide between past and future.

So yes, what you can not explain, throw it into the future.

No truer words have ever been spoken.

HankD

 

[agedman]

When a verse in the prophets is fulfilled, it is not automatic that the whole prophecy is fulfilled. Rather, as exampled by the Lord stopping reading in the middle of a prophecy, and declaring that portion He read was now fulfilled in Him.

He left the rest unread, for it is yet to be fulfilled.

 

[prophecy70]

No truer words have ever been spoken.

HankD

I don't agree with throwing anything 2000 years into the future just because you can't explain it fully. This chapter is fulfilled in my opinion.

 

[agedman]

I don't agree with throwing anything 2000 years into the future just because you can't explain it fully. This chapter is fulfilled in my opinion.

Wonder how you would handle the prophecy of the promise given of the messiah to Adam?

2000 years is nothing to concern God if one views the time line to the fist coming.

Perhaps one could look as your statement as the beginning of one of the fulfillment’s to the prophecy found in 1Peter 4, “where is the promise of His coming...”.