Where Arminians should critique Calvinism

[Scott J]

You are simply explaining WHY Calvinism would not want the scripture to exist.

Nope. I am explaining that you took the scripture out of context to create a problem that you then propose to solve by an accusation against calvinism that equally undermines arminianism if applied fairly.

Also, I am explaining how your interpretation cannot be correct without creating a contradiction in scripture.

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />
You still have God showing partiality

Only if we allow Calvinists to REDEFINE Partiality (as they have needed to REDEFINE ALL and WORLD and EVERY MAN, and ANYONE and WHOLE WORLD..).

Please provide your redefinitin of partiality so I can see what you mean.</font>[/QUOTE] I didn't redefine it. I accept yours:

By DEFINITION - impartiality does not allow you to favor A over B -- NOT FOR ANY REASON!

If God accepts one into heaven for ANY REASON while sending another to hell for ANY REASON then by your definition He is showing partiality.

You can go ahead and say that He shows that partiality based on an individual's merit but you can't deny that if your interpretation is correct (which I am convinced that it is not) that God shows partiality.

In the mean time - here is what the "rest of the World" thinks the word means.

impartiality - an inclination to weigh both views or opinions equally.

Context reveals that God respects neither the views and opinions of the Jews or gentiles as worthy of His favor.

So in the case of Person-A and Person-B -- it would be treating them both equally.

Get it?

Sure I get it. If your interpretation and application of this scriptue is correct then we have nothing to worry about and should go have a good time in the world... the universalists are right. God is going to treat us all equally since He cannot "favor A over B -- NOT FOR ANY REASON". Therefore we either all go to hell or all go to heaven... but God cannot treat us unequally or else He will have violated your rule that He can't be impartial.

 

[Scott J]

Oh, BTW, you have crafted some creative evasions but have yet to answer the question of why some believe.

I will simplify it. Is the choice to accept salvation caused by the goodness in man's unregenerate spirit or the goodness in man's regenerate spirit?

 

[Timtoolman]

I think it is the work of the scripture and the HS as He reveals truth to man. Then many accept on the basis of rather they want to repent of their lifestyle or continue serving self. I would not call it man's goodness but God's grace! His grace is Jesus Christ who paid the debt to set men free and offers to all. You are trying to put words or add more meaning to it so you can start in on your strawman attack. Lets not do that.

 

[Timtoolman]

Originally posted by Scott J:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by BobRyan:

Get it?

Sure I get it. If your interpretation and application of this scriptue is correct then we have nothing to worry about and should go have a good time in the world... the universalists are right. God is going to treat us all equally since He cannot "favor A over B -- NOT FOR ANY REASON". Therefore we either all go to hell or all go to heaven... but God cannot treat us unequally or else He will have violated your rule that He can't be impartial. </font>

Scott you are not listening! You are argueing a pt that is not even relevent to the subject. God has done the work, laid it all out in His word. Believe and have eternal life or don't and be condemned. Men all have the same choice! Why they pick one over the other is thier heart. Now if one is not allowed to choose then and the other can then that is by no means impartial. If He calls only to some then God is showing impartiality. If God loves only those that He knows will believe then He is showing impartiality and on and on.

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by Timtoolman:
I think it is the work of the scripture and the HS as He reveals truth to man. Then many accept on the basis of rather they want to repent of their lifestyle or continue serving self. I would not call it man's goodness but God's grace! His grace is Jesus Christ who paid the debt to set men free and offers to all. You are trying to put words or add more meaning to it so you can start in on your strawman attack. Lets not do that.

No. I am really not trying to do anything of the sort.

If it is the work of the Holy Spirit and the scripture and is not of man's goodness but God's grace... then it is not because of the man's independent, free-will choice.

That is my point. Once you meet the arminian demand for unrestricted free will of the unregenerate man, you must accept that something good within the individual ultimately causes them to accept Christ. If there is no goodness there then they won't accept Him.

Either that seed of goodness is because the HS put it there or because the man somehow created it himself... thus meriting salvation.

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by Timtoolman:
Scott you are not listening!

Tim, I am listening... I am simply not willing to accept the inconsistencies in Bob's arguments.

You are argueing a pt that is not even relevent to the subject. God has done the work, laid it all out in His word. Believe and have eternal life or don't and be condemned. Men all have the same choice!

I haven't argued this point. I agree with this.

Now, my question is "why" do some accept/believe while others do not? Do they make a better choice in which they play the critical role or was their choice the direct result of God's action upon them?

Why they pick one over the other is thier heart.

Why does one have a good heart... a contrite heart to make the right choice while another does not? I accept the fact that they do... I just want to know how you or Bob or any other honest student of scripture explains "why" they do it.

Now if one is not allowed to choose then

I never said that one is not "allowed" to choose... if you are implying that God prevents them. They don't choose correctly because they remain by their own free will choice in the bondage of their sins.

and the other can then that is by no means impartial.

Please don't follow Bob into misusing the text of scripture. The point of the text in Romans 2 is that all are condemned without paritiality under the law.

If He calls only to some then God is showing impartiality.

The context of the scripture is the Law and man's condemnation under it. In context, this scripture represents a 2+ chapter indictment of all mankind for our sins. Grace and faith are introduced as the remedy in Chapter 3. Boasting is excluded by the law of "faith"... meaning it can't be because of human goodness or else it would be a cause for boasting- and rightly so.

If God loves only those that He knows will believe then He is showing impartiality and on and on.

Are you an open theist? If not, how do you deal with the FACT of God's foreknowledge?

If God created people that He knew would not accept Him then He was certainly acting in partiality when He created people that He knew would be in circumstances that would lead to their salvation.

Your' and Bob's system simply cannot abide the same rule you want to apply to mine.

 

[BobRyan]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Impartiality DEFINED - means no partiality - get it?

So in the case of Person-A and Person-B -- it would be treating them both equally.

Get it?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ScottJ
Sure I get it. If your interpretation and application of this scriptue is correct

Are you saying that ONLY Arminians define impartiality as BEING IMPARTIAL??

Are you saying that I WROTE Romans 2??

Are you saying that ONLY Arminians would read Romans 2 and NOTICE that it claims that God IS impartial?

Are you saying that ONLY Arminians read Romans 2 and notice that it speaks about what the saved and lost "do" or notice that it uses the word IMPARTIAL --

11 For there is no partiality with God.
12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;
13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

Hey!! WHO is the dirty rotten Arminian that wrote those verses??? Lets get him!!

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Why they pick one over the other is thier heart.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Why does one have a good heart... a contrite heart to make the right choice while another does not? I accept the fact that they do... I just want to know how you or Bob or any other honest student of scripture explains "why" they do it.

Answer - ......... YEP it is the SAME one!! "Free Will"!!

WHY -- what MADE them?? ......

ANSWER.......Yep it is the SAME answer -- NOTHING MAKES them!! Not the way they are created and not some force MAKING them do it!!

That's called "Arminianism".

See?

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

GOD said

Romans 2
11 For there is no partiality with God.
12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;
13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

But Scott said --

ScottJ said
God is going to treat us all equally since He cannot "favor A over B -- NOT FOR ANY REASON". Therefore we either all go to hell or all go to heaven... but God cannot treat us unequally or else He will have violated your rule that He can't be impartial.

You tell Him Scott!!

Way to bend the point of Romans 2 "AS IF" it said that "regardless of what people DO they ALL go to the same place" (AS IF that is the new Calvinized definition of IMPARTIAL).

Way to "turn a phrase" on the fly!

But you could just settle for continuing to ignore the inconvenient facts of Romans 2 that are getting in the way of your "story".

Either way - its Calvinism defended!!

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Jarthur001]

Lets look at the details of Romans 2..

Who will God Judge??

In Chapter 1 Paul tells of the in lawful man..going his own way. God will judge that man. But is it all of mankind that he judges? A nation was given the law and judge others that did not have the law (greeks)..and pointed at them as unholy. Paul 1st tells why this is wrong. Also...Is Gods judgment only for the greeks? Are the jews bared from this judgment? Paul address this in chapter 2....


THEREFORE YOU have no excuse or defense or justification, O man, whoever you are who judges and condemns another. For in posing as judge and passing sentence on another, you condemn yourself, because you who judge are habitually practicing the very same things that you censure and denounce.

    2We know that the judgment of God falls justly and in accordance with truth upon those who practice such things.

    3And do you think or imagine, O man, when you judge and condemn those who practice such things and yet do them yourself, that you will escape God's judgment and elude His sentence and adverse verdict?

    4Or are you so blind as to trifle with and presume upon and despise and underestimate the wealth of His kindness and forbearance and long-suffering patience? Are you unmindful or actually ignorant of the fact that God's kindness is intended to lead you to repent?

******notice in 4. the law did not make the jews holy. It was there for them to see they can not do it on their own. It points them to repent of their unholyness


    5But by your callous stubbornness and impenitence of heart you are storing up wrath and indignation for yourself on the day of wrath and indignation, when God's righteous judgment will be revealed.

    6For He will render to every man according to his works justly, as his deeds deserve:

*****he will judge the Jews and the greeks...the ones with the law..and those without

    7To those who by patient persistence in well-doing seek glory and honor and immortality, He will give eternal life.

    8But for those who are self-seeking and self-willed and disobedient to the Truth but responsive to wickedness, there will be indignation and wrath.

******notice the contrast is not jew vs greek as the jews were saying...it is the GOOD path..vs the evil path...Gods will...mans will this is seen in 8-9 and again in 10-11

    9There will be tribulation and anguish and calamity and constraint for every soul of man who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek.

    10But glory and honor and peace shall be awarded to everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek.

******
Now the text..in context..

    11For God shows no partiality;
*************
God will judge both the jew and the greek
Both ones with the law....and those with out.
Its not about the law....the law saved no one.
Its about WORSHIP...when you worship you do the law out of love...not because we have to. “if you love me...feed my sheep. James says...you say you have faith...show me your love...that is where your faith is.


    12All who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged and condemned by the Law.

**** again the law that many jews thought saved them..only showed they were unholy and needed Christ. God will judge them too.

    13For it is not merely hearing the Law that makes one righteous before God, but it is the doers of the Law who will be held guiltless and acquitted and justified.

***** its not HEARING ONLY. when you have faith..your love of the one you place your faith in...makes you DO. Notice faith is where you find the guiltless

    14When Gentiles who have not the Law do instinctively what the Law requires, they are a law to themselves, since they do not have the Law.
*****
Even the Greeks should know right from wrong. Not that all men follow this. But this feeling of right from wrong placed in all mens heart...will not saved them from judgement. They too are condemned by the Law (verse 12)

    15They show that the essential requirements of the Law are written in their hearts and are operating there, with which their consciences (sense of right and wrong) also bear witness; and their decisions will accuse or perhaps defend and excuse them.

*****They too are condemned by the Law

    16On that day when, as my Gospel proclaims, God by Jesus Christ will judge men in regard to the things which they conceal their hidden thoughts.
******* yes God will judge all men

Now read the other verse. Notice how Paul jumps all over the jews for think because they have the law and then point to those without the law..(greeks)...that they need to look at themselives. Just because you have the law...doe not make you holy. God will judge you too.


**********************
    17But if you bear the name of Jew and rely upon the Law and pride yourselves in God and your relationship to Him,

    18And know and understand His will and discerningly approve the better things and have a sense of what is vital, because you are instructed by the Law;

    19And if you are confident that you [yourself] are a guide to the blind, a light to those who are in darkness, and [that

    20You are] a corrector of the foolish, a teacher of the childish, having in the Law the embodiment of knowledge and truth--

    21Well then, you who teach others, do you not teach yourself? While you teach against stealing, do you steal (take what does not really belong to you)?

    22You who say not to commit adultery, do you commit adultery [are you unchaste in action or in thought]? You who abhor and loathe idols, do you rob temples [do you appropriate to your own use what is consecrated to God, thus robbing the sanctuary and [h]doing sacrilege]?

    23You who boast in the Law, do you dishonor God by breaking the Law [by stealthily infringing upon or carelessly neglecting or openly breaking it]?

    24For, as it is written, The name of God is maligned and blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you! [The words to this effect are from your own Scriptures.](D)

    25Circumcision does indeed profit if you keep the Law; but if you habitually transgress the Law, your circumcision is made uncircumcision.

    26So if a man who is uncircumcised keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be credited to him as [equivalent to] circumcision?

    27Then those who are physically uncircumcised but keep the Law will condemn you who, although you have the code in writing and have circumcision, break the Law.

    28For he is not a [real] Jew who is only one outwardly and publicly, nor is [true] circumcision something external and physical.

    29But he is a Jew who is one inwardly, and [true] circumcision is of the heart, a spiritual and not a literal [matter]. His praise is not from men but from God.
************************


Awww yes...the details. It is very clear when you look at the details.

This passage is saying..the jews are not off the hook...but will be judge by God just as those in chapter 1.

 

[BobRyan]

The chapter presents BOTH the failing cases AND THE SUCCESSFUL cases. AND it claims that in ALL of this - God is NOT partial.

Those two points are beyond dispute.

And This is THE problem for Calvinism with Romans 2.

Hence the problem Scott is having with the idea that "God is NOT partial" when it comes to salvation.

Pretty hard to miss.

As for the "details" of Romans 2. Thanks for bringing that up!

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Jarthur001]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
T
And This is THE problem for Calvinism with Romans 2.


In Christ,

Bob

Why is this a problem?

 

[BobRyan]

Romans 2 actually deals with the impartiality of God wrt to Jews and Gentiles, those who have the bible and those who do not. (this means it addresses everyone - the saved and the unsaved) all come from either the group that has the bible or the group that does not. All come from either the Jews or the non-Jews. This is a globally applicable chapter. And it starts with the call to repentance (and there for confession and forgiveness).

Romans2:
1 therefore you have no excuse, everyone of you who passes judgment, for in that which you judge another, you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things.
2 and we know that the judgment of God rightly falls upon those who practice such things.
3 but do you suppose this, o man, when you pass judgment on those who practice such things and do the same yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God?
4 or do you think lightly of the riches of his kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?[/b

Now to this point we have had introduced the subject of God's infallible judgment and contrasted it to man's faulty judgment. We have also seen mercy - kindness - grace that leads us to repent. This chapter starts with the basics that all need to repent.

The Context for Romans 2 is STARTING with judgment, AND of the mercy of God that leads to repentance.

Let's continue letting the scripture speak for itself;

Rom2:
5 but because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6 who will render to each person according to his deeds:

Paul is adamant that there is a future judgment “according to deeds”.

He speaks of this again in 2Cor 5 talking about future judgment and judged based on deeds “whether they be good or evil”.

Notice that in these first 6 verses we have an Arminian-style motivation - not to engage in man's faulty judgment of others. And there is no sense or expectation that this sin is not to stop or just to continue because we are totally depraved. Rather the argument is to stop.

Further - if this chapter is only about the failing case, only about the wrath of God - then we will not find success, mercy, reward but only condemnation, wrath, punishment. Let's now let the text reveal which way it will go.

Rom 2:
7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;

Here is the “succeeding case” explicitly listed by Paul. And it is in the context of God - leading to repentance. We also have the people of God - persevering, doing good and seeking glory and honor. What is the result? The text says immortality and eternal life.

Rom2:
8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.

The “Failing case”: Clearly a contrast is being introduced "but to those who are selfish" - contrasted with what? Those who repent, seek eternal glory and honor and persevere. Persevere in what?

You must be on the right path to be approved in perseveringly staying on the right path. It is obvious I know, but worth noting.

So God has now contrasted the good and the wicked, those who persevere on the right path and those who are not even on it.

We already know that in the judgment there are two classes - those that receive immortality and those that do not. If it is not clear to us by now that this chapter is dealing with both classes - we need to engage in some remedial reading comprehension.

Rom2:
9 there will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek,
10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
11 for there is no partiality with God.

At this point Paul seems to ask that we "be not deceived" into thinking that some can do evil but find "preferred treatment" while others are lost for doing evil. Rather Paul argues that God has called all to repentance and all must comply - there will be no preferred treatment based on status (or magic phrase) allowing some of the rebels in.

But basic to Paul’s solution is the affirmation that God is NOT partial when it comes to the Gospel – when it comes to Salvation. That means that He is NOT favoring the “few” of Matt 7 over the “many” so that He can save the “Few”. Rather – impartiality demands that ALL be given the same salvation-sequence. ALL have the Holy Spirit convicting of sin and righteousness and judgment (John 16:8) and ALL have the Drawing of God (John 12:32) and ALL have the Lord Jesus Christ standing at the door and knocking – and ALL have the SAME promise of the New Covenant that “changes the TREE itself” Matt 7 and writes the Law of God on the heart (Heb 8).

Rather than simply “favoring some over others” the system defined above is “impartial” as God HIMSELF is “Impartial”. This Gospel truth was a huge problem for the Jews and is a big problem for Calvinism.

Rom2:
12 for all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;

Interesting that there are two different systems – one to address those who HAVE scripture and one to address those who do not. But BOTH having the potential outcome of loss or salvation. To this point Paul presents BOTH failing cases AND successful cases.

Paul appears to be in harmony with Christ here as Christ said that those who knew there master's will and did it not receive many lashes but those that did not know the master's will and yet did deeds worthy of punishment - receive few

Luke 12:
47“and that slave who knew his master’s will and did not get ready or act in accord with his will, will receive many lashes,
48 but the one who did not know it, and committed deeds worthy of a flogging, will receive but few. From everyone who has been given much, much will be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more.

Notice that Christ does not assume everyone goes to hell (both those who KNEW the Bible and those who did not) anymore than Paul would make such an absurd statement in Romans 2. Rather the chapter is in context with the call for repentance as noted at the start.

Romans2:
13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

Having shown us both the group that in the future obtain immortality and the group that in the future suffer the wrath after the future judgment of God - Paul now sums it up - the justification that is future will be for the doers and not for those who are proven to be merely hearers. The test is the same Matt 7 indicator “NOT everyone who SAYS Lord Lord – but he who DOES” for the good tree produces good fruit.

This is not a fact that Paul then goes on to deny in the rest of the book of Romans. Rather he continues to strongly endorse it (note particularly Romans 6). John McAarthur did an excellent series on this point - titled "the power over sin".

Paul now continues with the succeeding case! Yes that is right! His argument works and he gives a very simple proving case.

Romans2:
14for when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a Law to themselves,
15in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,

There actually were Gentiles that really did not have the Law of God! That is very important to understand. And there were those who did instinctively the things of the Law showing it was written on their heart!! Wow! So that means Paul really was right!

John Macarthur. "God holds all men responsible for their refusal to acknowledge what He has shown them of Himself in His creation. Even those who have NEVER HAD AN OPPORTUNITY TO HEAR THE GOSPEL have received a clear witness about the existence and character of God- and have suppressed it. If a person will respond to the revelation he has, even if it is solely natural revelation, God will provide some means for that person to hear the gospel." Macarthur Study Bible pg. 1693

Even more interesting is the fact that this terminology regarding "the Law written on the heart" is new covenant terminology. Heb 8, 2Cor 3!!! Yes indeed we have the succeeding case as well as the failing case made in this non-myopic chapter of God's infallible word.

Rom 2
:16on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.
…
25 for indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision.
26 so if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision?

wow! Apparently the infallible word is telling us that it is gospel - good news that a future judgment, where the Gentiles are shown to be doers of the Law and not merely hearers only, is coming. A future Christ centered judgment!! What a Christ-centered gospel Paul has in this chapter!!

2Cor 5:10

9 Therefore we also have as our ambition, whether at home or absent, to be pleasing to Him.
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
Romans 2 has BOTH the failing AND succesful cases and shows that IN This - God is not partial.

And This is THE problem for Calvinism with Romans 2.

Originally posted by Jarthur001:
Why is this a problem? [/QB]

Calvinism (as in 4 and 5pt Calvinism) "needs" a God that arbitrarily selects the "FEW" of Matt 7 from among the "MANY".

IT NEEDS a system where the many are NOT favored/chosen/selected (in fact arbitrarily selected) but the FEW are (for no apparent reason).

By definition - favoring the FEW over the MANY is partiality.

Notice How much of a problem this causes in Scott's responses. He is choking on the very meaning of the word BECAUSE Calvinism NEEDS a god that is partial. (At least 4 and 5pt Calvinism does).

Hence this OP from Calvinists here --

Here we see a post arguing that God should not be expected to “care” for all – particularly not the lost –

http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/35/1547.html#000000


---

Having said all that about 4 and 5-pt Calvinism - I am not sure I have said anything you don't already know.

So isn't this point obvious?

What is not to get?

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Jarthur001]

romans 2 says...God will judge all men. i change nothing in the word...that is what the context says...and i hold to that. I do not run here and there to prove it. It lies in the context. Both jew and greek

it also says...romans 9 ...

"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."

So then he has mercy upon whomever he wills, and he hardens the heart of whomever he wills.

Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for beauty and another for menial use?

God will not only judge ALL men...But God will also have compassion on on whoever he choose

Now..both fit my doctrine. i change nothing in the text. I do not pull one point from another passage...its all right there to read.

Both work for me...how about you? what will you change in 9 so it will fit Bob?

 

[Jarthur001]

Originally posted by Jarthur001:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by BobRyan:
T
And This is THE problem for Calvinism with Romans 2.


In Christ,

Bob

Why is this a problem? </font>[/QUOTE]I guess i need to add...there is no problem here for calvinist as you think.

sorry...rightly dividing the word of truth...or you could say..looking at the details

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by Jarthur001:
romans 2 says...God will judge all men. i change nothing in the word...that is what the context says...and i hold to that. I do not run here and there to prove it. It lies in the context. Both jew and greek

#1. Did you look at the link posted above where the Calvinist POINT is to SHOW that God CARES (favors) the FEW - the elect and NOT the rest of the world??

Basically there is no way to talk yourself around this problem.

It is so obvious - I can keep pointing to it as long as you can keep pretending not to see it.

God IS not Partial (Rom 2:11) but that link SHOWS the NEED in Calvinism to define God AS PARTIAL to the FEW - to the "elect".

This is incredibly obvious - it is beyond dispute.

Still waiting for the response.

Romans 2:11 sets a context for Romans where the God that DOES NOT change -- is NOT partial.

Whenever this is pointed out - I would suggest Calvinists try to flee from the text as fast as possible and try to switch the focus to something a little easier for Calvinism -- hmm Romans 9 for example.

James said
it also says...romans 9 ...

"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."

So then he has mercy upon whomever he wills, and he hardens the heart of whomever he wills.

Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for beauty and another for menial use?

Ahhh - there you go "as predictable as the clock" - flee Romans 2 and go to your interpretation of Romans 9.

So -- is it "partial" to FAVOR the FEW in Romans 9 and to "HARDEN" the MANY?

Or is that a "Calvinized-definition" of "Impartial"??

Notice that in Romans 2 it does not say "that by Judging with partiality God is IMPARTIAL since He judges Everyone in the that same biased way - where He only cares about SOME of those being judged"

Was that the "Calvinized" definition of "impartial" that you were reaching for?

Or are you trying to say that Romans 9 sets the context for Romans 2?

OR are you trying to say that Romans 9 negates Roamns 2?

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by BobRyan:
Romans 2 has BOTH the failing AND succesful cases and shows that IN This - God is not partial.

And This is THE problem for Calvinism with Romans 2.

Originally posted by Jarthur001:
Why is this a problem? [/QB]

Calvinism (as in 4 and 5pt Calvinism) "needs" a God that arbitrarily selects the "FEW" of Matt 7 from among the "MANY".

IT NEEDS a system where the many are NOT favored/chosen/selected (in fact arbitrarily selected) but the FEW are (for no apparent reason).

By definition - favoring the FEW over the MANY is partiality.

Notice How much of a problem this causes in Scott's responses. He is choking on the very meaning of the word BECAUSE Calvinism NEEDS a god that is partial. (At least 4 and 5pt Calvinism does).

Hence this OP from Calvinists here --

Here we see a post arguing that God should not be expected to “care” for all – particularly not the lost –

http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/35/1547.html#000000


---

Having said all that about 4 and 5-pt Calvinism - I am not sure I have said anything you don't already know.

So isn't this point obvious?

What is not to get?

In Christ,

Bob </font>[/QUOTE]

James' response -

I guess i need to add...there is no problem here for calvinist as you think.

Hmmm I suppose that is "pretty obvious" if one avoids the actual details in the comment above that points out the problem.

I had just never considered using that approach.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Jarthur001]

[/QUOTE]#1. Did you look at the link posted above where the Calvinist POINT is to SHOW that God CARES (favors) the FEW - the elect and NOT the rest of the world??

Yes i saw the link. The text say...God will judge all men...right? both jews and greek..right?

Basically there is no way to talk yourself around this problem.

*************not going "around" anything.

It is so obvious - I can keep pointing to it as long as you can keep pretending not to see it.

********* point to your link as much as you need. I keep with the context

God IS not Partial (Rom 2:11) but that link SHOWS the NEED in Calvinism to define God AS PARTIAL to the FEW - to the "elect".
************* Amen...God can and WILL judge all..even the elect. but..the elect is covered under the blood...right? did this come from the law? no..though Christ


This is incredibly obvious - it is beyond dispute.
********* you are so right. do you now see? welcome to the light


Romans 2:11 sets a context for Romans where the God that DOES NOT change -- is NOT partial.
*********** that is so right Bob. God is not partal as to the context for he will judge all men

Whenever this is pointed out - I would suggest Calvinists try to flee from the text as fast as possible and try to switch the focus to something a little easier for Calvinism -- hmm Romans 9 for example.
*************** no fleeing needed Bob. I understnad this text...i also understand romans 9. both fit..i change nothing in the context at all. do you?

James said
it also says...romans 9 ...

"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."

So then he has mercy upon whomever he wills, and he hardens the heart of whomever he wills.

Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for beauty and another for menial use?

Ahhh - there you go "as predictable as the clock" - flee Romans 2 and go to your interpretation of
*****************not fleeing Bob both are true...right?


Romans 9.

So -- is it "partial" to FAVOR the FEW in Romans 9 and to "HARDEN" the MANY?
************** lets see..in romans 9? i say yes...what do you say?

Or is that a "Calvinized-definition" of "Impartial"??
************ Calvin is not quoted in romans 9.

Notice that in Romans 2 it does not say "that by Judging with partiality God is IMPARTIAL since He judges Everyone in the that same biased way - where He only cares about SOME of those being judged"
**************Context is King Bob. Context says..judging...all the way though the passage..right? now inside that context..is impartial...right?

add the 2 together and what do you get?


Was that the "Calvinized" definition of "impartial" that you were reaching for?
*******calvin is not quoted. But the bible say in romans 9 that God can do as He wishes...right?

Or are you trying to say that Romans 9 sets the context for Romans 2?
******* no not at all. Both apply. Both are talking about Gods will. One says God shows no partail in judging...and the other says God can have murcy on who he wishes...right?

OR are you trying to say that Romans 9 negates Roamns 2?
***********nope Both work...right?

[/QB][/QUOTE]