Where Did Our Faith Come From?

[kyredneck]

I have noticed that while there are differences in our theological understandings of how exactly one comes to be saved the real differences are what we do with our beliefs.

Here's my understanding "of how exactly one comes to be saved":

Believe on the Lord Jesus, and thou shalt be saved, thou and thy house.

Your's any different?

And I have noticed that there are plenty of 5 point Calvinists who have no trouble bidding people in general to believe and to be converted.

I've no problem at all with them "bidding people in general to believe and to be converted", if they feel it's their duty to do.

You, and some others, come on and say that if you do like they do you must be saying one can conjure up faith by themselves and regenerate themselves.

There you go again. You got a post of mine where I've stated this?

If you read these guys, they are clear in saying that the person who comes to Christ (which is one of Owen's definitions of faith), is doing so because they have been regenerated.

Yes. These are the ones that understand Total Depravity as I do. These hold to 'Immediate Regeneration', apart from the gospel.

Schreiner

Sproul

Others, not going that far, say that they come under the influence or working of the Holy Spirit but are not sure if regeneration has already occurred. Nevertheless, they attribute the coming to the Holy Spirit's work (which Arminius clearly does).

These hold to 'gospel or means regeneration'.

I do believe that there is an actual change wrought in a person who is regenerated and not just a conviction or "moral suasion" leading one to believe.

Many examples in the scriptures affirm this.

a person who is under conviction

This is one of the most misunderstood, abused, and misapplied passages by evangelicals in the Bible.

"Evangelicals. Ignoring 'the wrath to come' upon that generation that murdered Christ. It's like a Grand Canyon sized chasm in your theology. You're not just missing a piece of the puzzle, you've tossed half of it out."

 

[kyredneck]

I'm not sure Ryle ever street preached. Whether he did or not why bring that up? I'm not interested in whether you feel guilty about being a street preacher.

met·a·phor
[ˈmedəˌfôr]
noun

1. a figure of speech in which a word or phrase is applied to an object or action to which it is not literally applicable:

 

[DaveXR650]

Here's my understanding "of how exactly one comes to be saved":

Believe on the Lord Jesus, and thou shalt be saved, thou and thy house.

Your's any different?

Not at all. But I should point out that the way you guys who insist that regeneration must precede faith use proof verses, and that includes Dr. Schreiner, show the same inconsistency as the verse you use above. You could easily say that clearly, one believes and then is saved, based on that verse. If you notice, nearly all verses involving belief and salvation or belief and being born again, do not really specify, nor were they probably intended as a statement of order, but only meant to include both things. In other words, they could be taken either way.

Yes. These are the ones that understand Total Depravity as I do. These hold to 'Immediate Regeneration', apart from the gospel.

Schreiner

Sproul

No. They do not hold to regeneration apart from the gospel. No one who develops their theology from a Reformed background believes in regeneration apart from the gospel. As to the immediate regeneration, there is much discussion if you read the writings of those who developed the Calvinist doctrine of regeneration. Some say it is immediate but some don't. And there is much discussion and disagreement on how conviction, enlightenment, the actual new birth and faith all fit together in time as well as whether all or part of this is of a person's natural ability before they are saved. And there is also much discussion as to whether regeneration is continuous or not or complete or partial in an initial moment.

If you read Schreiner's paper above, he does a good job of setting up a refutation of regeneration based upon a pronouncement by a church or upon baptism but he really doesn't try to refute the idea that Arminians (and just plain old Baptists) have for the most part that one believes, and then either immediately or just after faith occurs supernatural regeneration. That is all I was pointing out originally on my post.

If you really have no problem bidding a person to "repent and believe" then I have no problem with whether you want regeneration to be prior to belief which is why I so respect Schreiner and the Puritan writers.

 

[DaveXR650]

This is one of the most misunderstood, abused, and misapplied passages by evangelicals in the Bible.

"Evangelicals. Ignoring 'the wrath to come' upon that generation that murdered Christ. It's like a Grand Canyon sized chasm in your theology. You're not just missing a piece of the puzzle, you've tossed half of it out."

I was not referring to that passage at all regarding conviction. "Conviction", in these debates refers to the awareness something is wrong and/or the "pull" as it were to come to Christ for a remedy. Scripture says fallen man has some conscience in our natural state. There is then a lot of disagreement about how much of this is given to all men and whether is could be resisted and whether God is involved in judging whether to give further conviction or enlightenment based on how men handle the light they are given. This is much more complicated than those who come on here from both sides and simply repeat a doctrinal statement from their favorite confession or preacher think it is.

I would like to say that you, Ky, at least respond and debate posts. Most just do a drive by thread and then stop, which to me is odd on a debate forum. I don't know if there is much more to be learned from such a format.

 

[kyredneck]

one believes and then is saved

One is first quickened and is able to see it (synonymous with ears to hear), then one can believe and enter into it the kingdom. - Jn 3:3-5

No. They do not hold to regeneration apart from the gospel. No one who develops their theology from a Reformed background believes in regeneration apart from the gospel.

Egad, what do you think regeneration before conversion by believing the gospel implies? The Spirit where He willeth doth blow. He's not carried by preachers or missionaries or SS teachers or Mom and Dad or any other piece of flesh. The quickening from above is irresistible whether or not you like it, or whether Owen taught it.

Done.

 

[DaveXR650]

Egad, what do you think regeneration before conversion by believing the gospel implies? The Spirit where He willeth doth blow. He's not carried by preachers or missionaries or SS teachers or Mom and Dad or any other piece of flesh. The quickening from above is irresistible whether or not you like it, or whether Owen taught it.

I just don't think it was ever intended that your theology lead you into an absurdity, which you do in the above statement. Continue in that direction and you end up in the bizarre argument on another thread about groups who think that regeneration occurs apart from the word being preached.

The only point I intend to make is that most of the people who were taught in regular Baptist churches were simply taught that you hear the gospel, believe, and are regenerated or born again. I do not see where there was a raging battle over whether faith comes before regeneration, at the same time or after it. There are scriptures that seem to teach both. I conclude it's a mystery but those who laugh at mystery can continue to flounder around on their own. Some guys, like Spurgeon, seemed to get this and could preach without causing offense to non Calvinists, or violating any central Calvinist doctrine.

What the Reformers were serious about was 2 fold. One, the teaching of baptismal regeneration. Two, the teaching of Socinians, that regeneration really amounted to some type of reformation of life done by the person rather than a supernatural impartation of new life. (Modern day Socinians go by other names nowadays). I do think there is also a danger in some circles where regeneration is taught as something given to you upon saying the sinners prayer. In such cases you have just changed the requirement from baptism to a ritualistic said "prayer" so the problem is the same I think. If you are as old as I am you remember in the '70's everybody from Jimmy Carter to our bumper stickers said something about being "born again". I don't have a problem with the sinners prayer as such, said by someone who believes the gospel. My problem is just with those who have a style of "soul winning" where if I can get you to say it, you're saved.

 

[Dougcho]

That "God opens people's eyes" sounds pretty close to what Arminius said himself.
Exactly where does this stand against Arminian theology?

Very interesting ... Thank you!
IMO, the churches have taught believers that they chose to believe, etc.
as opposed to God first giving them the belief/faith necessary.
Man loves to be in control ... these are the Arminians.
Butski, God is in control ... and He is the One who decides who will believe.
I guess this is Calvinism ... I don't know.
I WAS NEVER RAISED, OR TAUGHT, to believe in Calvinism.

 

[DaveXR650]

IMO, the churches have taught believers that they chose to believe, etc.
as opposed to God first giving them the belief/faith necessary.
Man loves to be in control ... these are the Arminians.
Butski, God is in control ... and He is the One who decides who will believe.
I guess this is Calvinism ... I don't know.

What makes it hard is that Calvinists like Owen taught that the supernatural work of the Spirit that is done, is done on the person's will. So the will is what is active in a person coming to Christ, even for a strict Calvinist. Those who deny that have gone too far. But in addition, Owen taught that the work of the Holy Spirit prior to belief is more than even an enablement of the person to choose to believe. They taught that the work of the Spirit brings about actual belief. I reference Owen because he does a good job of explaining this and is so highly thought of by Calvinists.

For this to make sense you also have to understand Owen's views on the inability of men to believe to be a moral and sinful and willful inability. If you don't understand this you will have to conclude that God is arbitrarily wishing evil on people who He does not give faith to, who have not deliberately offended God in any conscious way. This is why Owen, as a Calvinist, insists that to refuse the Gospel is a great and heinous, willful sin against God, while at the same time insisting that man is unable to believe on his own.

You have to decide whether you can buy all of that. Arminian thought tends to give a high view of the work of the Holy Spirit, but tends to say that the Holy Spirit enables a person to refuse or accept the gospel and be saved. And what makes this even more confusing is that many Calvinists express this in their writings in much the same way. So to be honest with you - I don't know either.

 

[MrW]

Easy question; easy answer.

"Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God."

The Bible is the written Word of God and the Lord Jesus is the living Word of God,
and He is the Author and the Finisher of our faith.

 

[Revmitchell]

om 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

Rom 10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

 

[Brightfame52]

om 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

Rom 10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

So what is the Gospel of Christ ? Who is Christ of the bible ? What did He do and for whom ?

 

[Dougcho]

What makes it hard is that Calvinists like Owen taught that the supernatural work of the Spirit that is done, is done on the person's will.

I couldn't care less what Owen taught ...
I always only care about what the word of God is trying to teach us!
BTW, small "w" ... "W" in caps refers to Jesus, the Word of God).

 

[Dougcho]

Usually, I present my case with solid NT verses, but here I will relay
a very personal experience (which, I believe, is in line with the NT).

On November 28, 2024, at about 3 am, the Lord reminded me
of a tremendous experience I had in the Fall of 2012 …

I was evangelizing in Eastern Europe when my wife was having all
kinds of problems at home, and it was obvious that she needed me!
I immediately flew home … and a week later, my sister phoned to say:
our father was on his death bed and I should come immediately!

So, I flew to Toronto, took the 3-hour bus ride to my parents’ home,
arriving late that night. The following morning, I was alone with
my father in his private room at the hospital. As far as I can recall,
he was barely coherent … so we really couldn’t converse much at all.
I must have felt led to clear all demons out of the room … while I praised
the Lord for dying for us on the Cross to save us from going to hell, etc.
That evening my father died with most of our family at his bedside.

I believe it was 2 days later when my wife called to say:
the Lord told her that my father was in heaven!
We believed (and still do) that this was because of my time with him.

IMO, this was a case of God electing a person for salvation
and making sure that His will was accomplished. Surely,
the Lord confirmed to my father that what I was saying was true!

Also, I believe this experience ties in with the parable of the 4 soils.
Re: the first soil, ”When they hear, Satan comes immediately
and takes away the word that was sown in their hearts.”
In our case, Satan was NOT able to interfere with the Truth I was sharing.

“The faith I speak of is the kind that Jesus Christ our God and Savior gives to us.” (2 Peter 1:1)

“… and all who were chosen for eternal life became believers.” (Acts 13:48)

 

[DaveXR650]

I couldn't care less what Owen taught ...
I always only care about what the word of God is trying to teach us!

So you come on a Calvinism/Arminianism debate forum and announce that you couldn't care less about what Owen taught. Then you follow up with a personal story about how you believe you "cleared demons from the room". I'm not making light of your story. But I am astounded at your level of self esteem. Especially when you follow up with :

“The faith I speak of is the kind that Jesus Christ our God and Savior gives to us.” (2 Peter 1:1)

“… and all who were chosen for eternal life became believers.” (Acts 13:48)

Both of which Owen taught.

 

[Dougcho]

Both of which Owen taught.

Couldn't care less about what people teach!
Only care about what the Lord teaches
in His word and by personal revelation
(which lines up with Scripture).

 

[Martin Marprelate]

@Dougcho
Here's another one for you.
Acts 11:18. 'When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, "Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance unto life."'
But at the same time, the Bible asks, 'How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed. And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the Gospel of peace, who bring glad tidings of good things!"' (Romans 10:14-15).
All God's elect will be saved (John 6:39 etc.), but they won't be saved without hearing and believing the Gospel.

 

[DaveXR650]

Couldn't care less about what people teach!
Only care about what the Lord teaches
in His word and by personal revelation
(which lines up with Scripture).

Yes. That is apparent.

 

[Dougcho]

All God's elect will be saved (John 6:39 etc.), but they won't be saved without hearing and believing the Gospel.

Don't you understand what I've been saying?
People are unable to believe on their own
... so God needs to intervene ... and He does so
by giving them the faith necessary
for them to be able to believe.

 

[Brightfame52]

@Martin Marprelate

All God's elect will be saved (John 6:39 etc.), but they won't be saved without hearing and believing the Gospel.

Yet the must first be saved to hear and believe the Gospel.

 

[Dougcho]

@Martin Marprelate
Yet the must first be saved to hear and believe the Gospel.

Yes, several NT verses appear to be saying:
God needs to ELECT Jimmy to salvation ...
before He gives FAITH to Jimmy ...
by which Jimmy is able to BELIEVE.
Prior to this, Jimmy was totally unable to believe!
NT verses available upon request.