Where do I Find Rapture in Revelation?

[vooks]

I had given you links to mia and protos as it is spelled protos from that link.

First was derived from mia in Mark 16:2

I am not going to click on every Greek word in the Greek text in the whole Bible looking for protos being used again in the N.T.

I'm not interested in Mia because there is no such word in the subject verse. This is a red herring.

I'm also not interested in EVERY instance of prote in NT, just a SINGLE example of the same meaning anything other than FIRST.

For the umpteenth time, the word is prote not protos.

If Greek is not your forte then you should not invoke to prop your nonsense

 

[Hark]

Revelation 20:6 (KJV)
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Those who participate in the FIRST resurrection;
1. Will not go through the second death
2. Wil reign with Christ 1000 years

Pre-trib nonsense peddlers believe they won't participate in the FIRST resurrection yet they will have #1 and #2

I do not believe the elect will have # 1 & # 2 .

The first promise is that these saints being resurrected in coming out of the great tribulation will not go to the lake of fire. That does not mean the power of the first death does not hold over them still.

Probably why they have to eat from the tree of life which is in the city and all the coming generation out of the milleniel reign of Christ have to too.

Revelation 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. .....14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

It is the first inheritance that the chosen will never die and they will be like the angels as they will never marry nor given in marriage ( Luke 20:34-36 ). The chosen have a Home in New Jerusalem. That is where they will live where the Bridegroom will take them to. ( John 14:1-3 ).

Revelation 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

So the pre trib raptured saints live in that city.

Those reigning with Christ will be spread out all over the world to govern the present survivors of the world and the coming generation of believers. That means to lead, they are to marry and have children too since that is the requirement for a bishop in setting the example for if they cannot manage their own household, how can they serve Him over the people?

So, no. I do not believe the pre tribbers will have # 1 & # 2.

Luke 20:34 And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage: 35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: 36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

That is why the first inheritance is the everlasting life inheritance. It is a celestial inheritance; a heavenly one; the vessels unto honor.

2 Timothy 2;20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.

1 Corinthians 15:40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead.....

The second inheritance is terrestrial as it is where the vessel unto dishonor will be resurrected into having; the least in the kingdom of heaven for breaking the least of His commandments and for teaching others so.

Matthew 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

That includes any saint taking away from the book of Revelation, they will lose their portion out of the city.

Revelation 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Every believer has that potential inheritance now until God comes to judge His House at that pre trib rapture event. Those found in iniquity still, will be "destroyed" from being that vessel unto honor into becoming that vessel unto dishonor in His House, losing the heavenly inheritance.

God has to wipe the tears out of the eyes of those saints coming out of the great tribulation to get over the loss of that heavenly inheritance.

That is the whole point about referencing Esau giving up his birth right for a meal as he sought that inheritance with tears in the N.T. and why the prodigal son after having given up his first inheritance is still son.

 

[vooks]

I do not believe the elect will have # 1 & # 2 .

If you miss thae first resurrection the only other thing awaiting you is hell and you don't get to reign with Christ.

You can see how moronic pre-tribulation madness is

 

[vooks]

@Hark
EVERY Bible translation disagrees with you on the meaning of FIRST. Yet you are a hopeless NT Greek amateurLaugh

https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Revelation 20:5

Or will you tell me that Holy Spirit hid it from everyone but yourself?

 

[Hark]

I'm not interested in Mia because there is no such word in the subject verse. This is a red herring.

I'm also not interested in EVERY instance of prote in NT, just a SINGLE example of the same meaning anything other than FIRST.

Go here to Mark 16th chapter at this link;

http://www.sacrednamebible.com/kjvstrongs/B41C016.htm

Click on the fifth Greek word in the Greek text mirroring verse 2 and you will find where the first in English was derived from which is mia.

The word exists. Not a red herring. Acknowledge it or the discussion is at an impasse, and we cannot continue.

Then go to Revelation 20th chapter at this link;

http://www.sacrednamebible.com/kjvstrongs/B66C020.htm

Click on the last Greek word in the Greek text mirroring verse 5 and you will find where first in English was derived from which is protos.

It is spelled that way. Acknowledge that.

I'm not going to repeat what I have shared TWICE about why protos was used in Revelation 20:5 , when you have already made up your mind about the subject into not seeing it.

Why start a thread asking for answers as to why pre tribbers believe the way they do when you are not really asking to understand their P.O.V.?

 

[Hark]

@Hark
EVERY Bible translation disagrees with you on the meaning of FIRST. Yet you are a hopeless NT Greek amateurLaugh

https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Revelation 20:5

Or will you tell me that Holy Spirit hid it from everyone but yourself?

Antagonism does not suit you in serving Him, brother.

 

[vooks]

Go here to Mark 16th chapter at this link;

http://www.sacrednamebible.com/kjvstrongs/B41C016.htm

Click on the fifth Greek word in the Greek text mirroring verse 2 and you will find where the first in English was derived from which is mia.

The word exists. Not a red herring. Acknowledge it or the discussion is at an impasse, and we cannot continue.

Then go to Revelation 20th chapter at this link;

http://www.sacrednamebible.com/kjvstrongs/B66C020.htm

Click on the last Greek word in the Greek text mirroring verse 5 and you will find where first in English was derived from which is protos.

It is spelled that way. Acknowledge that.

I'm not going to repeat what I have shared TWICE about why protos was used in Revelation 20:5 , when you have already made up your mind about the subject into not seeing it.

Why start a thread asking for answers as to why pre tribbers believe the way they do when you are not really asking to understand their P.O.V.?

I said I'm not interested in MIA because i can't find it in Revelation 20:5 not because it is non-existence (you sure are madly in love with straw-men)
All I asked is prōtē as used in 20:5 and ANYWHERE else it means anything but FIRST.

I ask because you claim FIRST in Rev 20:5 is not FIRST but something else. Get me evidence of this

Here is Revelation 20:5 interlinear;
http://biblehub.com/text/revelation/20-5.htm

And here is Thayer's Greek Lexicon
http://biblehub.com/greek/4413.htm

Note the definition they give the word;
FIRST either in time or place, in any succession of things or of persons;

If your puny brains has a thing or two on Thayer, please show us your publications and we will take you seriously

 

[Darrell C]

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 (KJV)
But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Rapture supposedly is the event described here by the highlighted words. This is the most anticipated event in Christianity's calendar; meeting the Lord, mortality clothed with immortality to borrow the words of 1 Corinthians 15.

Question is;
Where is it in the book of Revelation?

While we do not find The Rapture in Revelation, we do see one:

Revelation 11:11-12

King James Version (KJV)


11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.


12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.


They are resurrected in bodies suitable for entrance to Heaven (which dicounts the possibility of this simply being a physical resurrection like Lazarus).

The Rapture is not found in Revelation.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

While they're looking for that one, look also for where Christ actually sets foot on terra firma, i.e., THE SECOND COMING, here, physically on earth.

While we do not have an explicit statement of Christ's return to the earth in Revelation, we cannot place this event...

Zechariah 14

King James Version (KJV)

14 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.


...at any other point in History other than at His Return at the end of the Tribulation.


God bless.

 

[vooks]

While we do not find The Rapture in Revelation, we do see one:

Revelation 11:11-12

King James Version (KJV)


11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.


12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.


They are resurrected in bodies suitable for entrance to Heaven (which dicounts the possibility of this simply being a physical resurrection like Lazarus).

The Rapture is not found in Revelation.


God bless.

Where do we find resurrection of the Just in Revelation?

 

[Darrell C]

1. From 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, Resurrection precedes rapture by a fraction of a moment.....and both happen at the coming of Jesus Christ.

If that were the case, meaning this is the time of The Rapture, then there would be no physical humans left to produce those who reject God and join Satan when he is released at the end of the Millennial Kingdom:

Revelation 20:7-9

King James Version (KJV)

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,


8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.


9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Those resurrected in the First Resurrection are those who come to saving faith after the Tribulation begins. Seeing that all unbelievers will perish by the time the Tribulation and the Judgement of Christ (Sheep and Goat Judgment (Matthew 25)) occurs, if the Rapture took place at the end of the Tribulation there would be no physical humans to produce those seen above.

2. The only place we have resurrection of the saints in Revelation is in the 20th chapter

You are forgetting the resurrection and rapture of the Two Witnesses:

Revelation 11:11-12

King James Version (KJV)


11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.


12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

3. We can therefore conclude that we will have rapture at or around Chapter 20.

This is not possible seeing that we have only part of the group Paul speaks of, the dead in Christ...being raised. There is no mention of the living being glorified:


1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

King James Version (KJV)

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:


17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

4. Before the resurrection(and rapture) in chapter 20,

There is no indication that the Tribulation Martyrs are caught up.

the Beast is destroyed by Jesus Christ in chapter 19. This means those resurrecting will go through the reign of the beast, which effectively shatters pre-trib theories.

I agree the Tribulation Martyrs go through the Tribulation, as they refuse the Mark of the Beast and subsequently die, which does not impact the Pre-Tribulation Rapture at all.

5. Pre-trib theorists can only salvage their fiction by fabricating a rapture and resurrection prior to the FIRST resurrection recorded in chapter 20.

The Rapture of the Two Witnesses establishes a valid precedent. There is a rapture before the First Resurrection ("First" referring to rank, rather than sequence-see the Biblical Usage of protos).

6. Unfortunately, this glorious event recorded in 1 Corinthians 15 and 1 Thessalonians 4 it totally absent in Revelation 1-19

Agreed. The Rapture of the Church is not mentioned specifically in Revelation at all, due to the fact it takes place prior to the Tribulation, and is an event which remains a mystery as to it's occurrence.

7. Some cheeky pre-trib theorists claim to have caught visions of the rapture in Rev 4:1 'come up hither...' But it is total nonsense to impute John's actual activities on the church for obvious reasons.

While I can see this...


Revelation 4

King James Version (KJV)


4 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

...could be viewed as an embedded reference to the Rapture's occurence before the Tribulation unfolds, I do not think one should or can be dogmatic about it. What takes place is John is caught up to Heaven and going beyond that is something one can choose to do personally without being dogmatic.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Where do we find resurrection of the Just in Revelation?

The first occurrence would be the resurrection of the Tribulation Martyrs, however, there is debate concerning when Old Testament Saints are resurrected. I lean towards their resurrection taking place (at which point they are glorified) at the resurrection of the dead which follows the passing away of the current Universe, which fulfills the general resurrection Christ taught. I am not dogmatic about that, but cannot think of anything that would prevent that from being the case. I suppose that is what you have in mind based on statements like this:

Matthew 13:49King James Version (KJV)

49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,



This can have application to both the Tribulation (at the end) as well as when the Universe passes away (though primarily these have a Tribulation context), as we see here...


Matthew 13:41King James Version (KJV)

41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;


Again, I would point out that the unbelieving will all perish before the Millennial Kingdom begins, as nothing that offends enters into that Kingdom:


Matthew 13:40-42King James Version (KJV)


40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.


41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;


42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.



Matthew 13:47-48King James Version (KJV)

47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:


48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.


These have application both in the temporal sense of the establishment of the Millennial Kingdom as well as the Eternal State.


God bless.

 

[Hark]

Matthew 13:41King James Version (KJV)

41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

Again, I would point out that the unbelieving will all perish before the Millennial Kingdom begins, as nothing that offends enters into that Kingdom:

If I may suggest a different application of Matthew 13:37-43 ? Just something to reconsider about that event, because I see that event as happening at the pre trib rapture.

If we consider how the angels will gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, what if that was referring to the kingdom of heaven?

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

It would explain Matthew 5:19 on how the least of the kingdom of heaven comes about as they're His that did offend in that kingdom of heaven and so they are denied entrance to the Marriage Supper as vessels unto honor in His House by being left behind as castaways into becoming vessels unto honor; the least in the kingdom of heaven.

Luke 12:40-49 has Jesus warning His disciples to be ready as He will send a fire on the earth. This fire will burn up one third of the earth in Revelation. That day of fire is hinted at when God will judge His House in 1 Corinthians 3:13-15.

Once that door to the Marriage Supper is shut, there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth over the loss of that first inheritance of being a vessel unto honor in His House to attend the Marriage Supper. That means that heavenly inheritance can never be had as those that are left behind are in essence, "condemned" to be vessel unto dishonor in His House.

This is why Esau is referenced in the N.T. weeping for his birthright that he had given up for a meal. This is why the prodigal son that had given up his first inheritance for wild living, will find that he is still son.

We find those resurrected saints coming out of the great tribulation as having necessity for God to wipe the tears from their eyes which I believe is to get over the loss of that first inheritance as they will serve the King of kings in leading the next generation in the coming milleniel reign of Christ.

Anyway, just sharing how I read Matthew 13:37-43 differently as it applies to when God judges His House at the pre trib rapture.

I understand your P.O.V. that you believe this event is before the milleniel reign of Christ, but I find this statement from Jesus as referring to the times that the disciples are in of that world before the great tribulation begins.

Matthew 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

Clues are given before that parable in another parable before that one..

Matthew 13:24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: 25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. 26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. 27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? 28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? 29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Put that last verse above with this one below:

Matthew 13:43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

And the righteous shall shone forth IN the kingdom of their Father which is where they will be collected into that barn above.

John 14:1
Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

While the wayward unrepentant saints are to be chastened and scourged by the Father in the coming fire on the earth and the subsequent great tribulation: Hebrews 12:1-29

 

[Darrell C]

If I may suggest a different application of Matthew 13:37-43 ? Just something to reconsider about that event, because I see that event as happening at the pre trib rapture.

The primary point was to discuss the beginning of the Millennial Kingdom and that unbelievers do not enter into that Kingdom which is in view.

As I mentioned...

This can have application to both the Tribulation (at the end) as well as when the Universe passes away (though primarily these have a Tribulation context), as we see here...

...but I view the primary focus is centered on that event of the Sheep and Goat Judgment (Matthew 25), where we see believers remaining to enter into the Kingdom...



Matthew 25:32-34

King James Version (KJV)

32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:


We know this speaks of the Lord's Return, this is generally accepted by most.

If we consider how the angels will gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, what if that was referring to the kingdom of heaven?

I see it as the period of establishment of this Kingdom, rather than an existing Kingdom and that God is "cleaning house," so to speak. The kingdoms of this world come under Christ's control in Revelation during the Tribulation, which does not negate God's Sovereignty, but we do recognize Satan's position in this world. In the Millennial Kingdom it will be a true Theocracy. That is not the case now.

Secondly, we would question a view that suggests that once one is translated into Christ's Kingdom (which we who are born again all are) there is a possibility that one could lose that position.

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

It would explain Matthew 5:19 on how the least of the kingdom of heaven comes about as they're His that did offend in that kingdom of heaven and so they are denied entrance to the Marriage Supper as vessels unto honor in His House by being left behind as castaways into becoming vessels unto honor; the least in the kingdom of heaven.

You would have to show me where Matthew 5:19 suggests believers can be left out of the Marriage Supper. That is a new one on me.

Luke 12:40-49 has Jesus warning His disciples to be ready as He will send a fire on the earth. This fire will burn up one third of the earth in Revelation. That day of fire is hinted at when God will judge His House in 1 Corinthians 3:13-15.

This is a suggestion: the context is previous to the Revelation of the Mystery of the Gospel which did not come about until Pentecost. The significance is that in view is not the Church in a Rapture context, but Israel herself. While we can apply it, and several aspects of the teaching (such as varying degrees of reward) to the Church, we do not forget that fire speaks of judgment, and believers are not judged in a context which is normally a reference to eternal judgment. I am out of time but that is a point that deserves further discussion.

Once that door to the Marriage Supper is shut, there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth over the loss of that first inheritance of being a vessel unto honor in His House to attend the Marriage Supper. That means that heavenly inheritance can never be had as those that are left behind are in essence, "condemned" to be vessel unto dishonor in His House.

This is why Esau is referenced in the N.T. weeping for his birthright that he had given up for a meal. This is why the prodigal son that had given up his first inheritance for wild living, will find that he is still son.

Those who do not enter are eternally lost. There is a view that embraces believers being excluded from the Millennial Kingdom, but for some strange reason it is a forbidden topic here.

We find those resurrected saints coming out of the great tribulation as having necessity for God to wipe the tears from their eyes which I believe is to get over the loss of that first inheritance as they will serve the King of kings in leading the next generation in the coming milleniel reign of Christ.

There is a thousand years which separates the wiping away of tears and the resurrection of the Tribulation Martyrs.

Anyway, just sharing how I read Matthew 13:37-43 differently as it applies to when God judges His House at the pre trib rapture.

While I also believe there will be Judgment at this time, I do not see any Biblical Basis or justification that negates that in the Rapture both the living and dead of the Church are glorified and caught up to Heaven. There is no "fire" associated with the Rapture for the Church. There are, even as John the Baptist taught, two possibilities for men: they are Baptized with the Holy Spirit or they are baptized with fire (Matthew 3).

I understand your P.O.V. that you believe this event is before the milleniel reign of Christ, but I find this statement from Jesus as referring to the times that the disciples are in of that world before the great tribulation begins.

Matthew 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

While the damnation of those judged at the Sheep and Goat Judgment is in fact eternal, again we can see an application that applies to both the End of the Tribulation as well as the Great White Throne Judgement.

Clues are given before that parable in another parable before that one..

Matthew 13:24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: 25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. 26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. 27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? 28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? 29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Put that last verse above with this one below:

Matthew 13:43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

And the righteous shall shone forth IN the kingdom of their Father which is where they will be collected into that barn above.

I will develop John the Baptist's teaching in regards to the gathering of the Saints later. Out of time.

John 14:1
Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

While I can see an application to the Rapture, this is primarily, in my view, a reference to the collection of the saints after His Ascension.

Despite being part of the Rapture or not, we are gathered to Christ when we die.

While the wayward unrepentant saints are to be chastened and scourged by the Father in the coming fire on the earth and the subsequent great tribulation: Hebrews 12:1-29

I have to reject that view, primarily because the Rapture is all inclusive of everyone in the Church when it takes place, both living and dead.

Hey thanks for the response, and sorry for the rushed response. Hopefully it can be narrowed down and developed in greater detail.


God bless.

 

[Hark]

The primary point was to discuss the beginning of the Millennial Kingdom and that unbelievers do not enter into that Kingdom which is in view.

For Matthew 13:37-43, I understand why you were applying it to that event, but just sharing that I believe it is the pre trib rapture event.

As I mentioned...

This can have application to both the Tribulation (at the end) as well as when the Universe passes away (though primarily these have a Tribulation context), as we see here...

...but I view the primary focus is centered on that event of the Sheep and Goat Judgment (Matthew 25), where we see believers remaining to enter into the Kingdom...

Matthew 25:32-34

King James Version (KJV)

32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

We know this speaks of the Lord's Return, this is generally accepted by most.

Not me. The King does have a supper; Luke 14:15-24 And He is preparing a place for us ( the elect ) John 14:1-3 and so I do not see that as an event before the milleniel reign which if it was then I believe the remainder people would have to prepare their own place in the world.

Plus. it refers to the King as the Shepherd as He divides his sheep from the goat which the goats are a part of His flock, otherwise, He would not be dividing them. Hence judgment on the House of God at the pre trib rapture event.

I see it as the period of establishment of this Kingdom, rather than an existing Kingdom and that God is "cleaning house," so to speak.

Well, at least you understand my point of view even if you disagree with its application of those scripture towards that event.

The kingdoms of this world come under Christ's control in Revelation during the Tribulation, which does not negate God's Sovereignty, but we do recognize Satan's position in this world. In the Millennial Kingdom it will be a true Theocracy. That is not the case now.

Secondly, we would question a view that suggests that once one is translated into Christ's Kingdom (which we who are born again all are) there is a possibility that one could lose that position.

You have to discern who the least in the kingdom of heaven are.

Matthew 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Same thing for whom are the vessels unto dishonor.

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

If the least are those that break the least of His commandments and teach others so and the vessel unto dishonor are those that have not departed from iniquity, then God will gather all out of His kingdom that offend, and excommunicate them out to be received later on.

You would have to show me where Matthew 5:19 suggests believers can be left out of the Marriage Supper. That is a new one on me.

Understandable. Okay.. the least are those that break the least of His commandments and teaches others so are in iniquity, and when in iniquity, a church is to excommunicate if they refuse repentance. The purpose is clear as God will follow the same pattern.

1 Corinthians 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

See how verse 5 is symbolic of what God will actually be doing at the pre trib rapture in excommunicating those that offend out of being received as a vessel unto honor in His House to attend the Marriage Supper?

Here is more symbolism below on why that feast of the Marriage Supper has to be the right fellowship for any saint to eat in.

1 Corinthians 5:8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.....1 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

And so this is why running the race by faith in Jesus Christ to help us law aside every weight & sin is important, because it can occur much more than a loss of the rewards of crowns, but it runs the risk of also becoming a castaway as Paul even testified that the consequence exists even for him if he did not bring his body under subjection with His help.

1 Corinthians 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. 25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. 26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: 27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

God be willing... to be continued....

 

[Hark]

This is a suggestion: the context is previous to the Revelation of the Mystery of the Gospel which did not come about until Pentecost. The significance is that in view is not the Church in a Rapture context, but Israel herself. While we can apply it, and several aspects of the teaching (such as varying degrees of reward) to the Church, we do not forget that fire speaks of judgment, and believers are not judged in a context which is normally a reference to eternal judgment. I am out of time but that is a point that deserves further discussion.

True. The believers are not judged with the eternal fire judgment, but the Refiner's fire, believers will be judged by what they have built on that foundation by being left behind at the pre trib rapture.

1 Corinthians 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Luke 12:40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not. 41 Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all? 42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season? 43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. 44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath. 45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; 46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more. 49 I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?

For not being ready, saved believers may find themselves cut of and left behind to receive stripes when that fire is coming on the earth.

2 Peter 3:6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. 8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Those who do not enter are eternally lost. There is a view that embraces believers being excluded from the Millennial Kingdom, but for some strange reason it is a forbidden topic here.

I am not familiar with that line of thought unless my seeing that the elect are living in New Jerusalem while the left behind saints are reigning with the King of kings over the coming generation all over the world is what that line of thought is, but I doubt it.

There is a thousand years which separates the wiping away of tears and the resurrection of the Tribulation Martyrs.

There is? I have to see that reference. Those having their tears wiped away are being given a promise that the heat will not beat down on them any more and so linked to the fire and the subsequent great tribulation.

While I also believe there will be Judgment at this time, I do not see any Biblical Basis or justification that negates that in the Rapture both the living and dead of the Church are glorified and caught up to Heaven. There is no "fire" associated with the Rapture for the Church. There are, even as John the Baptist taught, two possibilities for men: they are Baptized with the Holy Spirit or they are baptized with fire (Matthew 3).

After the rapture of the abiding bride of Christ, and after the first angel shares the everlasting gospel, then I believe is when that fire comes which is the cause of the fall of Babylon in Revelation 18th chapter.

While the damnation of those judged at the Sheep and Goat Judgment is in fact eternal, again we can see an application that applies to both the End of the Tribulation as well as the Great White Throne Judgement.

Becoming a vessel unto dishonor in His House is a damnation in one respect. They can never be a vessel unto honor once that door to the Marriage Supper is shut.

I will develop John the Baptist's teaching in regards to the gathering of the Saints later. Out of time.

While I can see an application to the Rapture, this is primarily, in my view, a reference to the collection of the saints after His Ascension.

Despite being part of the Rapture or not, we are gathered to Christ when we die.

I have to reject that view, primarily because the Rapture is all inclusive of everyone in the Church when it takes place, both living and dead.

Hey thanks for the response, and sorry for the rushed response. Hopefully it can be narrowed down and developed in greater detail.

God bless.

Thanks for sharing.

I think the primary view of those professing believers left behind is that they were never saved, but I say they were denied for being in iniquity ( Titus 1;16 & 2 Timothy 2:12 & Matthew 7:23 ), but He still abides in them for He is faithful ( 2 Timothy 2:13 ) even if they did fall away from the faith; 1 Timothy 4:1-2 because He will lose nothing of all the Father has given Him ( John 6:39 ) but alas, not every believer will be ready to go when the Bridegroom comes as even the cares of this life can be a snare.

Luke 21:33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. 34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. 35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

 

[Darrell C]

Darrell C said: ↑

The primary point was to discuss the beginning of the Millennial Kingdom and that unbelievers do not enter into that Kingdom which is in view.

For Matthew 13:37-43, I understand why you were applying it to that event, but just sharing that I believe it is the pre trib rapture event.

You think that members of the Church are separated in the Rapture and some of them are thrown into a furnace of fire?

The fire in view is eternal punishment, not a purgatorial placement during the Kingdom.

As I mentioned...

This can have application to both the Tribulation (at the end) as well as when the Universe passes away (though primarily these have a Tribulation context), as we see here...

...but I view the primary focus is centered on that event of the Sheep and Goat Judgment (Matthew 25), where we see believers remaining to enter into the Kingdom...

Matthew 25:32-34

King James Version (KJV)

32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

We know this speaks of the Lord's Return, this is generally accepted by most.
Click to expand...

Not me. The King does have a supper; Luke 14:15-24 And He is preparing a place for us ( the elect ) John 14:1-3 and so I do not see that as an event before the milleniel reign which if it was then I believe the remainder people would have to prepare their own place in the world.

It is not the world in which the Lord prepares a place for us, but in Heaven itself. In the Eternal State this place, New Jerusalem, bridges, so to speak, Heaven itself and the New heavens and Earth. But this does not take place until the Millennial Kingdom ends.

During the Millennial Kingdom, it is my belief that the Church will dwell in that City. Those that are still in this world will dwell on this earth, howbeit renovated and having the curse dramatically lifted (long life, cessation of enmity between man and animals and animals and animals).

I view the Marriage Supper as that very period (Millennial Reign) and the celebration continues throughout the thousand years. And it is the Church which enters into that. Those that come to saving faith during the Tribulation will either live or die. Those that die are resurrected (Revelation 20:4-5) and those that survive are those who are the Sheep, who enter into the Kingdom (Millennial).

Plus. it refers to the King as the Shepherd as He divides his sheep from the goat which the goats are a part of His flock, otherwise, He would not be dividing them. Hence judgment on the House of God at the pre trib rapture event.

The Goats are unbelievers, not members of the Church:



Matthew 25:41-46

King James Version (KJV)

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.


There is simply no way to make these members of the Church, nor this a Rapture event. There is no Rapture at the end of the Tribulation...it takes place prior to the Tribulation.

I see it as the period of establishment of this Kingdom, rather than an existing Kingdom and that God is "cleaning house," so to speak.

Well, at least you understand my point of view even if you disagree with its application of those scripture towards that event.
[/QUOTE]

If you consult Daniel you will find something very interesting:



Daniel 12:7-12

King James Version (KJV)

7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?

9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.


As Chapter 9 speaks of Antichrist basically ceasing Temple Service in the middle of the Week (Seven Year Period), even so here as well as in Matthew 24 we see the Abomination of Desolation spoken of. Here, we see three and a half years spoken of in relation to the Abomination which makes desolate, yet we see an additional time given from that event, which is a period of 75 days. Consider that at the end of the Tribulation Satan is bound for one thousand years, yet is released for a short season. That 75 days, I believe, is the period in which the Sheep and Goat Judgment falls into, at which time the nations are gathered for judgment. What this means is that Satan gets 75 days at the end of the Millennial Kingdom to bring the unbelievers produced by the Sheep that enter into the Kingdom (their offspring). See Zechariah 13:1-3 for an example of an unbeliever in the Kingdom.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

The kingdoms of this world come under Christ's control in Revelation during the Tribulation, which does not negate God's Sovereignty, but we do recognize Satan's position in this world. In the Millennial Kingdom it will be a true Theocracy. That is not the case now.

Secondly, we would question a view that suggests that once one is translated into Christ's Kingdom (which we who are born again all are) there is a possibility that one could lose that position.

You have to discern who the least in the kingdom of heaven are.

Matthew 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Same thing for whom are the vessels unto dishonor.

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

If the least are those that break the least of His commandments and teach others so and the vessel unto dishonor are those that have not departed from iniquity, then God will gather all out of His kingdom that offend, and excommunicate them out to be received later on.

Most of Christ's teaching was distinct, not to the Church Age, nor to the Kingdom of Heaven (meaning in Heaven itself), but to the Millennial Kingdom. In the first quote you provide in view is behavior in that Kingdom, again, this is a time when there is a true Theocracy, and Christ will rule the world.

The second quote refers to the Church Age.

The way that God "gathers" in this day is through physical death. The wages of sin still remains...death. An example of that is seen here:



1 Corinthians 11:28-30

King James Version (KJV)

28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.

29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.


Another example would be Ananias and his wife Sapphira. Their sin resulted in death. The same is true for us today if we sin against God. He can impose the very same penalty He imposed under the Law and prior to the Law...death.

But in regards to Salvation in Christ He does not revoke salvation. Understanding that salvation under New Covenant standard is in fact the Lord Himself indwelling us which is something never reversed. We have eternal life because He that is Eternal Life dwells in us. This is the difference between the Old Testament Saint and the New Testament Saint: we have been reunited with God through salvation. New Birth is distinctly New Covenant. While Old Testament Saints were "saved" from an eternal perspective, they all died having offered up only the deaths of animals, hence, as seen in the other thread, they could not enter into the Holiest of All, that is, Heaven itself. Their transgressions were redeemed same as ours were, through, and only through...the shed Blood of Christ.

The ministry of the Comforter was not present in Old Testament Eras, but began at Pentecost.That Ministry is one of reconciliation, whereby the natural man is Baptized into Christ, which simply speaks of our union with God.

You would have to show me where Matthew 5:19 suggests believers can be left out of the Marriage Supper. That is a new one on me.

Understandable. Okay.. the least are those that break the least of His commandments and teaches others so are in iniquity, and when in iniquity, a church is to excommunicate if they refuse repentance. The purpose is clear as God will follow the same pattern.

1 Corinthians 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

See how verse 5 is symbolic of what God will actually be doing at the pre trib rapture in excommunicating those that offend out of being received as a vessel unto honor in His House to attend the Marriage Supper?

Again, I view this as a reference to Kingdom conditions, rather than the Church Age (the general premise of our discussion, not this verse, which speaks of the Church). In this quote, in view is a dealing with the physical, not the spiritual. Those who are born again are united with God though they remain in their physical bodies. Church discipline can only deal with members on a physical basis, they do not have power to supply or revoke salvation in Christ, they cannot reverse the New Birth.

Here is more symbolism below on why that feast of the Marriage Supper has to be the right fellowship for any saint to eat in.

1 Corinthians 5:8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.....1 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

And so this is why running the race by faith in Jesus Christ to help us law aside every weight & sin is important, because it can occur much more than a loss of the rewards of crowns, but it runs the risk of also becoming a castaway as Paul even testified that the consequence exists even for him if he did not bring his body under subjection with His help.

1 Corinthians 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. 25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. 26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: 27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

God be willing... to be continued....

I would agree Scripture is clear that rewards will vary and that believers can lose reward through sin, and that is is important that we live our lives in obedience. However, there is only one reason why people participate in the Rapture, that is because they are saved and actually members of the Church. Again, Paul is pretty clear that everyone in the Church, both living and dead...will be resurrected and caught up. And again, we can see that the Sheep and Goat judgment is not a division among believers, but a division of believers from unbelievers. And the unbelievers are sent into eternal punishment.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Darrell C said: ↑

This is a suggestion: the context is previous to the Revelation of the Mystery of the Gospel which did not come about until Pentecost. The significance is that in view is not the Church in a Rapture context, but Israel herself. While we can apply it, and several aspects of the teaching (such as varying degrees of reward) to the Church, we do not forget that fire speaks of judgment, and believers are not judged in a context which is normally a reference to eternal judgment. I am out of time but that is a point that deserves further discussion.

True. The believers are not judged with the eternal fire judgment, but the Refiner's fire, believers will be judged by what they have built on that foundation by being left behind at the pre trib rapture.

1 Corinthians 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Luke 12:40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not. 41 Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all? 42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season? 43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. 44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath. 45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; 46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more. 49 I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?

For not being ready, saved believers may find themselves cut of and left behind to receive stripes when that fire is coming on the earth.

Again, Paul teaches that everyone in the Body is raptured, both dead and alive. Not one will be left behind. We are not raptured due to meritorious service, but because we are believers. There is no passage that teaches believers are left behind.

In the first quote notice that though judged all are still saved. Paul does not distinguish that some, or most are delivered from the wrath to come, but speaks generally of all.

In the second quot, again, this is spoken in a context prior to the revelation of the Mystery of the Gospel. The Lord is not speaking about the Church, but Israel. This applies to those who associate with God as Israel. When He taught the Disciples, He was teaching Jews, not the Church. While a number of notable Theologians ascribe this as speaking of judgment for believers, and I agree for the most part, that there is an application, but notice that the servant...

...is not doing the will of the Master.(v.48).

The point is that the truth has gone out and men are obligated to embrace and be obedient to that truth. We see Paul state why those who undergo the wrath of God do so...



2 Thessalonians 1:7-9

King James Version (KJV)

7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;


The fate of unbelievers at the end of the Tribulation is everlasting punishment. The fate of believers in the Rapture is glorification and being caught up.

As I mentioned John's preaching before, I will present this for you to consider, in order to establish that there are two types in the world only, saved and lost:



Matthew 3:11-12

King James Version (KJV)

11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.


While many think the fire here refers to a "refining fire, that is not how John defines it in v.12. Two groups, those Baptized with the Holy Spirit (salvation), and those baptized with fire (judgment). Those saved are gathered, those judged are destroyed with that fire.

Nowhere do we see a division among those raptured, as we see a division at Christ's Return between believers and unbelievers.

2 Peter 3:6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. 8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Only those saved by God survive, the unbelieving perish. This has, I believe, primary reference to the creation of the New heavens and earth, though we can see application to the Tribulation. But the world does not cease to exist until after the Millennial Kingdom.

Those who do not enter are eternally lost. There is a view that embraces believers being excluded from the Millennial Kingdom, but for some strange reason it is a forbidden topic here.

I am not familiar with that line of thought unless my seeing that the elect are living in New Jerusalem while the left behind saints are reigning with the King of kings over the coming generation all over the world is what that line of thought is, but I doubt it.

All believers are among the elect. And we are not told all believers reign with Christ (though that could be assumed), but we are only told that Tribulation Martyrs reign during that period. I do believe we may minister during the Kingdom, as Angels do now, however, this is where we could interject a discussion as to rewards during that period. I do not think that all believers who are raptured are given the opportunity for service in the Kingdom, but those who do are those rewarded for their service in this Age.

The forbidden topic is Millennial Exclusion, which suggests something similar to what you are saying, basically: that believers who are not "good enough" are excluded from that period (Millennial Kingdom) and basically punished for their sin. We would then have to speculate about whether this would include those that are raised from the dead (the dead in Christ who are glorified in the Rapture) and whether they too are divided and some kept from the Kingdom Era. The problem with that is that there is no Biblical justification for such speculation, as Paul makes it very clear that all believers are raptured and their destination is the same:



1 Thessalonians 4:15-17

King James Version (KJV)

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


Both dead and alive are caught up. All will be with the Lord for ever.



1 Corinthians 15:51-52

King James Version (KJV)

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.


We have to interject a notion that there is a different fate among those of the Body. The text does not suggest it. So we need to be careful about how we perceive teachings dealing with judgment in regards to the Lord's teachings, which again, have a primary reference to the Kingdom which those He taught were expectant of. The Lord did not reveal to Israel or the masses the Mystery of the Church and more importantly...

...the Mystery of the Gospel.

It would not be until Pentecost and the coming of the Comforter that these truths are revealed and understood.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

There is a thousand years which separates the wiping away of tears and the resurrection of the Tribulation Martyrs.

There is? I have to see that reference.

Here it is:


Revelation 21

King James Version (KJV)

1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.


This takes place...after the Millennial Kingdom concludes and this current universe passes away.

Those having their tears wiped away are being given a promise that the heat will not beat down on them any more and so linked to the fire and the subsequent great tribulation.

It's not a promise, but an action of God under Eternal State conditions, rather than something that takes place in the Tribulation. We do see this during the Tribulation, but the action will be repeated in the Eternal State for all.


Revelation 7:13-17

King James Version (KJV)

13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.

17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.


While the Tribulation Martyrs are part of the Church, the One Fold that we see in the Eternal State, there is nothing which suggests these Martyrs were born again believers prior to the Rapture. Seeing that we see the action of wiping away of tears in the Eternal State, it seems logical to assume that we can see a thousand years separating this vision of Tribulation Martyrs in Heaven and the Bride having her tears wiped away after this creation passes.




Continued...