Where do I Find Rapture in Revelation?

[Darrell C]

Darrell C said: ↑

So present a Biblical Basis to support the Rapture taking place at the end of the Tribulation, unbelievers entering the Millennial Kingdom, and where the rebellious unbelievers at the end of the Kingdom come from.

Matthew 24:29-30 (KJV)
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

No Rapture found here.

Jesus is coming AFTER the tribulation.
1 Thessalonians 4:15-18 (KJV)
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

While Christ does indeed come, this coming and the Return are two separate events.

Revelation 19 makes it clear that the Saints are with Him already. We do not see a resurrection at His Return until the Tribulation Martyrs are raised.

Rapture is at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ

You can begin by showing how Matthew 25 does not make it clear that unbelievers are, as taught in Scripture repeatedly, destroyed prior to the Kingdom being established.

What part of Matthew 25 supports pre-trib nonsense?

First, that the Lord comes at the Rapture is not in dispute.

Secondly, I would ask that you actually answer these question, which do not focus on the Rapture.

You are repeating the same nonsense as evidence of your claim. Once again, how does post-trib rapture conflict ANY scripture?

You have a couple of pages already stating why.

I tell you a primary reason...

Again, it is impossible for the Rapture to take place at the end of the Tribulation, as there would be no physical people on the earth.

And you ignore it.

When you can start addressing all of the points it will sink in why a Post-Trib Rapture is not only impossible, it is not found in the Timeline of events listed in Revelation.


God bless.

 

[vooks]

While Christ does indeed come, this coming and the Return are two separate events.

And the difference between coming and returning is?

Revelation 19 makes it clear that the Saints are with Him already.

Nonsense on stilts. Which part of chapter 19 'makes it clear'?

We do not see a resurrection at His Return until the Tribulation Martyrs are raised.

You will have to with scriptures define Jesus' return and coming.

First, that the Lord comes at the Rapture is not in dispute.

And this is not return?
Could you with scriptures define Jesus' coming and return

Secondly, I would ask that you actually answer these question, which do not focus on the Rapture.

Scriptural proof. You know the evidence of your claim is not your claim, don't you?

You have a couple of pages already stating why.

You have no proof that's why you are going around in circles appealing to your claims as evidence of the same

I tell you a primary reason...

The primary 'reason' is basically quoting yourself making the same claim. Not smart, not intelligent and certainly a strong indication of deficiency of logic

And you ignore it.

Scriptures proving that after rapture every life on earth will be regenerate

When you can start addressing all of the points it will sink in why a Post-Trib Rapture is not only impossible, it is not found in the Timeline of events listed in Revelation.


God bless.

There unfortunately are no points to address.
Please, if you have run out of points, stop spamming this thread with nonsense

 

[Darrell C]

Darrell C said: ↑

Paul makes it clear he is not sure whether in body or spirit.

Was Paul unaware that flesh can't go to heaven? Because he can only be uncertain of the nature of the visit if he is ignorant.

He makes it clear he is ignorant:

2 Corinthians 12:2

I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven.

Secondly, this is a Post-Cross event. Paul was a redeemed believer, which would not, in that perspective, inhibit his going there.

So were the two witnesses. Or you imagine they are prophesying about Mises?

Right. But...they go to Heaven. That is clear.

They are caught up.

Third, while we know God can do what He wants to do in this regard, we know He does not contradict Himself, meaning, if He says flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of Heaven, that denies the possibility of Enoch and Elijah going there, and it makes it highly unlikely that Paul went there physically.

Inheriting the kingdom is different from visiting heaven bodily. The contradiction is a figment of your imagination

There is a difference between an inheritance and inheriting. Only in inheriting is there actually a reception of the inheritance.

Paul's point is that we do not receive Heaven in natural bodies.

You nullify the teaching by suggesting men can, in natural bodies, receive Heaven.

Fourth, inheriting the Kingdom of God is not really distinct from "visiting" Heaven.

So how come Paul was ignorant of this fact?

Paul was ignorant as to whether it was bodily or spiritual. He just did not know. While there are exceptions at times to general rules, we cannot ignore the fact that both John and Christ, as well as the Lord in the Old Testament...all said men could not, and did not enter Heaven, or even gaze upon Him.

That would have been death according to the Lord:


Exodus 33:19-20

King James Version (KJV)

19 And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.

20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.

Consider:


1 Corinthians 15:50-51

King James Version (KJV)

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
Click to expand...

The same Paul who was not sure if he bodily visited heaven?

You ignore the point.

It is clear that flesh and blood does not go to Heaven.

The entire point of the Chapter is to explain the resurrection of the dead and the body we are raised in. Paul makes it clear that flesh and blood, the natural body, does not partake of the Kingdom of God. We know this does not refer to the spiritual rule and reign of God, and adding to that the context of this teaching it makes it clear that flesh and blood does not go into Heaven.

However, if you want to think it can, have at it. I am still waiting for the Scripture that teaches Enoch and Elijah went into Heaven. Do you plan on bringing any Scripture to the table?
Click to expand...

I'm also waiting for proof that they went elsewhere.

First, I am going to demand your Scripture to support your view that Enoch and Elijah went to Heaven.

Secondly, I would ask you if you believe the unjust went to Heaven. That in itself demands the "elsewhere" you are looking for.

And third, here is Christ teaching that dead men did not go to Heaven:



Luke 16:19-23

King James Version (KJV)

19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:

20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.


If you can make this mean Lazarus went to Heaven, I'd like to see it. If you can do that, then we will move on to other passages that make it clear that no man entered into Heaven prior to the Cross of Christ.

You have ignored those already given.

Care to teach me where they went?

As mentioned several times, they went to Hades/Sheol.

Just a Biblical Fact.

And if you are regurgitating that Hades nonsense, back it up

You deny that Hades is real?

Where do you think the lost go when they die in this Age?

Will you make this...


1 John 4:12
No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.


...void?

So what did Moses and Isaiah see?

In regards to Moses, he did not see God, not to mention the fact that God had come to him, not Moses to Heaven.

In regards to Isaiah, please present the Scripture that has Isaiah seeing God.

Or this...

John 3:13
And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

...?
Click to expand...

where was Jesus as he spoke these words?

On earth, and according to this translation...also in Heaven. Which is possible due to the fact that He is God, and God never ceases to be God, nor is God ever divided from Himself.

Some manuscripts do not have "which is in Heaven."

It's your turn to supply some Scripture.

I think you have thus far provided one quote.

Show the Scripture that teaches Enoch and Elijah went to Heaven, thus cancelling out the teaching of Christ.

Which word would going to heaven cancel?

Quite a few. How about starting with ones already supplied? You have not addressed those yet.

Not sure how you come up with this. Where do I say there is no resurrection in the Church, and what do you do with the many posts that have repeated the same position again and again?

Is rapture of saints a separate event from resurrection of the saints?

Answer the question.

Again, the Rapture is not found in Revelation.

What about resurrection of the saints?

Which one?

Okay, about out of time. Let's see some Scripture Vooks. You have been asked several times to provide a Biblical Basis for your views, so let's begin with Enoch and Elijah going to Heaven in their flesh and blood bodies.


God bless.

Because there is nowhere else they could have gone

I asked for a Scriptural Basis, though I know it is not to be found. You know this as well, which is why you do not provide Scripture.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

And it also means Jesus is not the resurrection seeing there were other resurrections before his incarnation.

And this is where you make a mistake: all resurrections prior to Christ's were bodily resurrections only. Christ is the Firstfruits, the Firstborn from the Dead. His is the First Resurrection in regards to glorification.

Everyone who was resurrected in the Old Testament died again.

Stupidity know no bounds.

This is a documented fact.

Thank you for your participation.

And I need not mention that the 'other' resurrections&/raptures are recorded

Interesting.

You have in fact been kicking against the fact that other Resurrections are mentioned, as well as rapture events, primarily the Two Witnesses.

Once again,
Why is pre-trib rapture &/resurrection totally absent from Revelation?

I didn't say resurrection is absent, but the Rapture of the Church only.

I have consistently pointed out that there are three resurrections listed in the events of Revelation, beginning with the resurrection and rapture of the Two Witnesses (which negates a possibility that sequence is the proper understanding of the word first in the First Resurrection.

Now, where is your Scripture that states Enoch and Elijah went to Heaven?


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

So Revelation a book written to the Church is totally silent on the fate of the dead and living saints, while meticulously detailing the fate of sinners?

This has zero relevance to anything I have said.

Revelation has numerous passages dealing with the fate of the dead and living saints. This has in fact been the topic's primary issue.


God bless.

 

[vooks]

This has zero relevance to anything I have said.

Revelation has numerous passages dealing with the fate of the dead and living saints. This has in fact been the topic's primary issue.


God bless.

Yes but it omits their resurrection?

Think again

 

[Darrell C]

Darrell C said: ↑

While Christ does indeed come, this coming and the Return are two separate events.

And the difference between coming and returning is?

We meet the Lord in the air, we are caught up into the clouds. This is His coming for the Church.

In His Return...He returns to the Earth to take control.

Zechariah 14

King James Version (KJV)

1 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

Revelation 19 makes it clear that the Saints are with Him already.

Nonsense on stilts. Which part of chapter 19 'makes it clear'?

This part:


Revelation 19:11-14

King James Version (KJV)

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

We do not see a resurrection at His Return until the Tribulation Martyrs are raised.

You will have to with scriptures define Jesus' return and coming.

I don't define it...Scripture defines it.

In the Rapture, for example, Christ collects us personally. In the events described in regards to His Return...Angels gather.

In the Rapture, we meet Him in the Air. In the Return, He returns to earth.

First, that the Lord comes at the Rapture is not in dispute.

And this is not return?

No, there will be a seven year period, at least, before He returns.

Could you with scriptures define Jesus' coming and return

Just did.

In answer to the first two times you asked, lol.

Secondly, I would ask that you actually answer these question, which do not focus on the Rapture.

Scriptural proof. You know the evidence of your claim is not your claim, don't you?

Answer the question.

You know asking a question is not an answer to a question.

You have a couple of pages already stating why.

You have no proof that's why you are going around in circles appealing to your claims as evidence of the same

It's not evidence, it's simply the only logical conclusion that can be drawn.

Rapture at the end of the Tribulation means no source for the rebellious at the end of the Millennial Kingdom.

I tell you a primary reason...

The primary 'reason' is basically quoting yourself making the same claim. Not smart, not intelligent and certainly a strong indication of deficiency of logic

Here is the primary reason again...

Darrell C said: ↑

Again, it is impossible for the Rapture to take place at the end of the Tribulation, as there would be no physical people on the earth.

Would you care to address it at this time?

All unbelievers die by the time the Sheep and Goat Judgment ends:



Matthew 25:41-46

King James Version (KJV)

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.


New Birth is a requirement for entrance to the Kingdom.

It's just simple math.

And you ignore it.

Scriptures proving that after rapture every life on earth will be regenerate

Again, it is because there is a physical presence which rises up in rebellion against God it is demanded that there be physical believers entering into the Kingdom to produce that lot.

If everyone is glorified at the end of the Tribulation, and all unbelievers perish...then this cannot happen.

When you can start addressing all of the points it will sink in why a Post-Trib Rapture is not only impossible, it is not found in the Timeline of events listed in Revelation.


God bless.

There unfortunately are no points to address.

There are. It's just a matter of addressing them.

Please, if you have run out of points, stop spamming this thread with nonsense

Hardly spam. Each one carefully created just for you, my friend.


God bless.

 

[vooks]

You have in fact been kicking against the fact that other Resurrections are mentioned, as well as rapture events, primarily the Two Witnesses.

But the resurrection of the church or rapture is absent?

I didn't say resurrection is absent, but the Rapture of the Church only.

Where is the resurrection?

I have consistently pointed out that there are three resurrections listed in the events of Revelation, beginning with the resurrection and rapture of the Two Witnesses (which negates a possibility that sequence is the proper understanding of the word first in the First Resurrection.

But the resurrection of the church is totally absent?

Now, where is your Scripture that states Enoch and Elijah went to Heaven?
God bless.

Where else did they ascend to? Mars?

 

[Darrell C]

Yes but it omits their resurrection?

Think again

I have addressed each resurrection which is actually found in Revelation already. How do you see them omitted?

The only resurrection that is not found in Revelation (in regards to men) is the Rapture of the Church. We don't find it there because it does not happen during or after the tribulation.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

But the resurrection of the church or rapture is absent?

Where is the resurrection?

But the resurrection of the church is totally absent?

Where else did they ascend to? Mars?

How is this supplying Scripture that supports the view they went to Heaven?

That is my only question for you at this point. You are repeating the same questions which tells me you are not interested in a discussion.

Have to get going, so have a great day.


God bless.

 

[vooks]

We meet the Lord in the air, we are caught up into the clouds. This is His coming for the Church.

Nonsense again on stilts. As if it is impossible to meet him in the air on His way back to earth. Ever heard of begging the question? You assume what you set to prove

In His Return...He returns to the Earth to take control.

And his coming is to give away control?

I don't define it...Scripture defines it.

And you have no scriptures to back that

In the Rapture, for example, Christ collects us personally. In the events described in regards to His Return...Angels gather.

So is this a return or coming?

Matthew 24:30-31 (KJV)
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

So,show me the rapture BEFORE this Return. Or was it so insignificant that Jesus omitted in in His discourse?

In the Rapture, we meet Him in the Air. In the Return, He returns to earth.
No, there will be a seven year period, at least, before He returns.

Silly semantics. Without scriptures. Why won't Paul James,Peter and John make a distinction between these terms, or any other Christian for 1800 years of Christianity?

And for the umpteenth time, why assume what you set to prove. It's true meeting him up and him coming are different events but why can't they follow each other? Why can't we meet him in the air on his way down here?

 

[vooks]

How is this supplying Scripture that supports the view they went to Heaven?

Because there is NOWHERE else to go

That is my only question for you at this point. You are repeating the same questions which tells me you are not interested in a discussion.

Have to get going, so have a great day.


God bless.

And my question is, where ELSE other than heaven could they have gone? Hell?

 

[vooks]

I think I found it

Revelation 12:5 (KJV)
And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

The woman is the nation Israel, the child is the church......caught up of course is the rapture.

Her gestation would be the time spanning Pentecost to whenever Rapture happens

Galatians 4:19 (KJV)
My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,

Ephesians 4:13 (KJV)
Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

These two verses point to church maturing...and just as we attain the 'stature of the fullness of Christ', we are harpazo'd to the throne of God

Hmmmmm

 

[vooks]

I'm still waiting for somebody to point out the two biggest events in church calendar; 'general resurrection and rapture of the church from Revelation.

so far, I've heard the argument that there is another resurrection before the FIRST resurrection (the two witnesses) meaning the FIRST resurrection is really not the FIRST. But, where is this other resurrection that marks the end of church age?

I've also been told that John never recorded all significant events. But he tackles resurrection theme severally throughout the entire book so this does not make sense. He has resurrection of the two witnesses, the 'tribulation saints', the sinners...why would he omit the one resurrection MOST relevant to his contemporaries?

Between a pre-trib theorist who imagines that his resurrection is somewhere between the chapters 1-19 and the post-trib theorist who sees the Rev 20 resurrection as the general resurrection, who is making the more sensible assumption?

 

[vooks]

I'll be posting a new thread on this.
question is, will there be natural deaths in the 7yr period following the pre-trib rapture?

if yes, when would these naturally dead saints resurrect?

if no, why would this be so?