Where do you draw the line on booze?

[post-it]

Originally posted by ChristianCynic:
[QB]A question I have thought much about in the past-- but I don't think much about now, because the answer appears unanswerable-- is: How is sin quantized?

Your point was well made. This can be applied to many sins by the way. For example, the common white lie. My brain over heats up when I try to run the logic of it all. So, I am at peace with the fact we all sin and will continue to sin and we just have to prevent as much sin as our hearts tell us to.

Just leave out the cigars next time you want to prove a point.

 

[Justified]

Originally posted by SBG:

In many Baptist statement of faith, there is a prohibition on Church members from the use, manufacture and sale of alcoholic beverages. I was wondering where the "line" should be drawn for a member? Scenario: John Q. Baptist, works for a Wal-Mart supercenter in the sporting goods department. This store also sales beer and wine in the grocery department. Is John Q. out of the guidelines of the church? How 'bout Jane the cashier?

God made it clear with a "WOE" unto those who sell and/or serve strong drink. The Bible has 43 other verses that attribute evil, an event of wickedness, murder, lewedness, and other such sins with it's association. But just one mention of this should be enough to stay clear, let alone over 40 times.

I was born and raised in a tavern lifestyle. Almost everyone that patronized my parents tavern, ended up in adultry, fighting, lewedness, and/or divorce. Including my parents!

The lie of social drinking can be controled is a direct contradiction to God's Word.

The other side of the coin is, that there are 4 verses that condone the drinking of strong drink, and all of them are in reference to sickness, pain, and/or deep depression, (depression is a lack of trust in God), but which of all there are medications natural or perscriptions for these things.

And taking employment, well, that is up to you. I would say that if your employer would allow you to stay clear of such things and not sell it at the check out, that would be as close to the fence as I would get. But, I would not work at a place that the major mechandise is strong drink.

The other issues of sugar, cigarettes, magazines is another topic or thread.

”Conservatives- Theology dictates morality/Liberals- morality dictates Theology” Justified Version

 

[BrianT]

Originally posted by Justified:
The lie of social drinking can be controled is a direct contradiction to God's Word.

So Jesus and the apostles accepted the lie, and directly contradicted God's word?

The other issues of sugar, cigarettes, magazines is another topic or thread.

No it isn't. What's the difference?

[ August 25, 2002, 06:14 PM: Message edited by: BrianT ]

 

[ChristianCynic]

Originally posted by Justified:
God made it clear with a "WOE" unto those who sell and/or serve strong drink.

WOE right there. "Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts" {Proverbs 31:6}. Do you obey or do you disobey this verse?

But just one mention of this should be enough to stay clear, let alone over 40 times.

How noble of you to say "just one mention" is enough to require obedience. So again, do you obey Prov. 31:6, or do you disobey it?

Almost everyone that patronized my parents tavern, ended up in adultry, fighting, lewedness, and/or divorce. Including my parents!

You must have done a lot of voyeurism. But what was the secret of those few who you did not actually see commit adultery?

The other side of the coin is, that there are 4 verses that condone the drinking of strong drink, and all of them are in reference to sickness, pain, and/or deep depression, (depression is a lack of trust in God), but which of all there are medications natural or perscriptions for these things.

You are saying that modern medical research trumps the Word of God. I disagree. And where does scripture define depression as "a lack of trust in God?"-- let's have the book, chapter, and verse. And indeed, if 'lack of trust in God' DOES define depression, then you are saying medications for this conditions compel trust in God. Is that the case?-- or are there indeed no medications which alleviate depression?

And taking employment, well, that is up to you. I would say that if your employer would allow you to stay clear of such things and not sell it at the check out, that would be as close to the fence as I would get.

You obviously do not have such a job. Imagine a customer who has stood in the checkout line for a long time, and when {s}he gets to the counter the clerk notices a bottle of sherry for a special recipe and says "You will have to go through another line-- I do not check out customers who purchase this product." Or, for that matter, imagine if you were buying bacon and the clerk was Jewish or 7th Day Adventist, and refused to check your purchase... or a Mormon who refused to check you out because you are buying coffee...

But, I would not work at a place that the major mechandise is strong drink.

That' your privilege. But in an extreme example-- would you really prefer a starving family to working at 'OK Gas Oil Beer Wine'?

The other issues of sugar, cigarettes, magazines is another topic or thread.

No, they are a topic for this thread if they have anything to do with the discussion... and they do here, as they point out a lack of consistent approach to biblical principles.

 

[Helen]

STOP IT, ALL OF YOU!

Cynic, can't you see that Justified is coming from a point of pain? Can't you respect that?

ALL of you:

We are not required to understand everything in the Bible to be saved, or to believe. And none of us understand everything! We each have our points of understanding and our points of pain which color how we read things.

Both Justified and my husband have real points of pain where alcohol is concerned. They have both seen too much of the destruction of lives it can bring.

If we can't respect that in another human being -- if we can't recognize where they are coming from -- what kind of Christians are we, anyway? I have my points of pain from experience in my own life, too, and I am sure they color part of my understanding of God's Word.

But you know something? That's OK. God understands. And the precious Holy Spirit is gradually breaking down some of these walls to understanding in a healing process. That happens to all of us.

This is not just to Cynic, but to everyone here. Respect each other. Justified is telling you why he feels the way he does about alcohol. His response is perfectly rational (right or wrong) given that background. God is leading us all to a fuller understanding of all the aspects of His truth bit by bit. Don't you think we ought to be encouraging one another rather than attacking?

Maybe my husband's background gave him a too harsh understanding of alcohol. Maybe mine gave me a too casual understanding -- I mean I grew up in a house where every other May my dad would have jam sessions and there were KEGS of beer consumed over a weekend! I simply accepted that!

Probably WAY too casual, but it was what I grew up with.

And God has moved me away from that casual position as He is transforming me into the person HE wants me to be.

I'm getting closer every day to being an 'old lady', and I remember a song from many years ago:

Walk a mile in my shoes
Walk a mile in my shoes;
Before you abuse
Criticize and accuse
Walk a mile in my shoes.

 

[just-want-peace]

Helen, you do have a way with words.

As I was reading this thread I couldn't help but see satan grinning from ear to ear! he sure doesn't have to worry about Christians being a hinderance to his plans as long as the venom is spewed so forcefuly & in such volume!

It's not just this thread, but many others that reflect the same "hatred" of those that don't agree with "me"!!

I beg all you who claim(?) the name of Christ to put a bit of prayer before you sink your fangs into another bro/sis of the faith. Surely you DO care what kind of influence you can/do/may have on someone searching for TRUTH!?

My name describes my temperament, so you can deduce that I hate conflict! Some is inevitable, when a major issue is compromised, but even then it should be done to inform/correct, not to wound!

We should be trying to show others the truth so they can change, not stab them (a' la ISLAM??) just to get rid of the opposition!

Again, Helen, you say so eloquently what I would if I had the talent! Keep it up gal!

 

[KenH]

I find it curious why these threads keep coming up on drinking alcoholic beverages. The Lord's Supper was instituted by Christ using wine. The Bible says we should not get drunk. It doesn't say we cannot drink alcoholic beverages. Anything beyond those two points is personal opinion based on one's own life experiences and prejudices - and we all have some.

And we have no warrant to bind our opinions on another person, regardless of how correct we think we are.

Ken
(By the way I don't drink alcholic beverages - I would have to explain why it is okay to do so to too many people who think otherwise.)

[ August 25, 2002, 08:44 PM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]

 

[Residential15]

Ernie, I respect your position and those of you who hold a position of total abstinence from alcohol. However, I believe there are a couple of important issues to consider.

1. A position of abstinence is different from a position of prohibition . If Ernie and others choose abstinence, they are choosing not to partake themselves. If they choose prohibition, they are choosing not to allow anyone to partake. Scripture does not allow NT believers to dictate the personal standards of other NT believers on issues that Scripture is relatively unclear about. (I say "relatively" unclear because the Bible's position on 21st century alcoholic beverages is not nearly as clear as its position on, say, immorality.) So, in summary, "personal abstinence" is fine. Dictatorial prohibition is not.

2. For those of us who do not necessarily hold a position of abstinence, another important issue for us to consider is alcohol's abuse in American society. While I--and apparently others on this post--do not believe that the Bible teaches an imperative total abstinence from alcoholic beverages, it is nevertheless being greatly abused in our society. It would at least be worth our consideration to review its necessity in our lives. Which leads me to one more important issue.

3. Drunkenness is clearly a sin. It is labled as such explicitly in several NT passages. Drinking alcohol apart from drunkenness is not spelled out quite so clearly, however. Since the Bible is not as clear on this issue as it is on others, it is very likely that Christians will always hold differing opinions/interpretations regarding this subject. Now is when we (that is, those of us who take a non-abstinence view) must determine just how necessary drinking alcoholic drinks is for us. In other words, if we're willing to sacrifice ministry to people like Ernie just so we can have what we want, then we are displaying extreme selfishness!

Just some thoughts.

 

[KenH]

Good post, Residential15. Of course, your post also brings up the issue of how far can the actions of one believer be restricted by the opinions of another believer.

These kind of issues remind me of what happens if you lay a bunch of economists end to end - you never reach a conclusion.

Ken

 

[Rev. Joshua]

That particular baptist covenant was the unfortunate product of one church's covenant being included in a particular hymnal - and then being widely distributed as a result. I've never served in or been a member of a church that held such a covenant - nor would I.

Joshua

 

[tyndale1946]

In regards to the original question I see no reason not to work for those establishments if that is your occupation. You can always quit and find another job where they don't sell liquor if it goes against your grain. Vons is a very big grocery store but just because they sell liquor I should not buy there? I'm buying food I'm not buying booze.

Helen, her husband Barry, Doc Cas and his wife met in San Diego at the Olive Garden for dinner. This restaurant sells wine but nobody ordered wine but we all had dinner there anyway. Were we unchristian because we had dinner at a restaurant that sold wine even though we didn't partake?

Here is one that I'm sure will get this forum buzzing and the brethren in all our Primitive Baptist Churches observe this... During our communion service the body and the blood of Christ is represented by wine and unleavened bread. I've had wine in my church many time during communion service which comes twice a year. I know all the other baptist churches use grape juice but we use Mogen David. Personally I don't care for wine but the scriptures don't rule against it... only overuse of it as all things should be used in moderation.

I Timothy 5:22 Lay hands suddenly on no man, neither be partaker of other men's sins: keep thyself pure.

23 Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities... I'm just stating the way I see the original question and understand others see it different which is fine but this is my understanding of it for what it may or maynot be worth... Brother Glen

[ August 25, 2002, 09:43 PM: Message edited by: tyndale1946 ]

 

[blackbird]

While I pastored down in Louisiana I was a member of a volunter fire department. On a Wednesday nite about 9pm we were called out on a "Signal Twenty-two"--auto accident with fatalities. When myself and two other firemen arrived in the first response truck we found one car in the ditch on fire and another car in the middle of the highway smashed head on and looked like an Accordian(musical instrument)--a woman was still trapped inside--bleeding profusely from the face--her husband and six year old boy were on the road--dead. The driver of the other vehicle had been drinking alcohol--thought he could handle it, I suppose!

That's one reason why I abstain!! That's one reason I ask you born-again believers to abstain!! I'm a member of a different vol. fire dept here in Mississippi--and I don't ever want to be called out to another "Signal Twenty-two" again, ever!!

 

[BrianT]

Hi Blackbird,

What you described is truly terrible. But I don't think anyone here would disagree that alcohol abuse can destroy lives, and is a terrible, terrible tragedy.

But note that it is the *abuse* of something, the using it out of proper context, that is wrong and can lead to tragic results. In some countries (including America), adultery and sexual promiscuity are so rampant, that it is not uncommon for a man to hire a prostitute, get AIDS, and then later infect his wife (who gets pregnant), and soon you have innocent women and children dying horrible, tragic deaths (and no less tragic than your story of the drunk driver) the result of "sex". But not sex in and of itself, but rather because of sex misused and abused. Of course, there are ways sex can be used responsibly, inside the limits of marriage. Using it outside these limits, abusing it, it sin. Same with alcohol. It would be foolish to see the innocent AIDS victims and then implore that everyone therefore abstain from sex. Yet I am amazed when people use the exact same logic to denounce alcohol in totality, *especially* when the Lord Jesus Christ himself not only did not ask people to abstain, but didn't even abstain himself.

You can have sex responsibly, inside of scriptural limits, or you can go outside those limits and sin and risk tragedy. You can drive your car responsibly, inside of legal limits, or you can go outside those limits and sin and risk tragedy. You can take drugs responsibly, inside of legal and medical limits, or you can go outside those limits and sin and risk tragedy. The same principle applies to alcohol, and that principle is even explicitly defined in scripture. So why do so many disagree with this scriptural principle????

 

[Helen]

Originally posted by Ken Hamilton:
Good post, Residential15. Of course, your post also brings up the issue of how far can the actions of one believer be restricted by the opinions of another believer.

These kind of issues remind me of what happens if you lay a bunch of economists end to end - you never reach a conclusion.

Ken

No, but you get a REALLY interesting set of books, Ken!

Regarding the issue above that, Paul tells us to respect the weaker in faith when with them. Now, if the non-drinker thinks the drinker is weaker in faith, he should not berate him. And if the drinker thinks the non-drinker is weak in faith, he should not mock him. Each of us should consider the other better than himself.

It sure saves a LOT of arguments.

And bandwidth.

 

[blackbird]

To BrianT & others,

You see, thats the problem with defending alcohol--"Well, its those that abuse . . .! Allow me to finish the rest of the story above. The fella who had been drinking--he died in the wreck, too--but, here' the thing--he(the drunk) was a local Sheriff's Deputy. Earlier on in the day--the vol. fire dept. chief(one of my deacon's) happened to drive past the deputy's house and saw him outside. He pulls up and starts talking--the deputy had a "Bud" in his hand. "Boy, so & so! You sure are plastered! Better not get out on the highway like that!!"--to which the Deputy replies--"Naw, man! I can handle it! I'm a responsible person!" And the deputy keeps drinking--thinking all along--he's not abuseing it!! This goes on till later in the day to which the deputy hears a call on his scanner/radio--a prisoner had escaped from the jail and they wanted all deputies to respond--to which this plastered deputy gets the mentality--"I gotta go! I gotta help!"--folks try to stop him before he goes--too late--the frazzling drunk deputy is responding to a call sent by parish dispatch around 8:30pm--the innocent man & boy(coming home from church Bible study)--have just moments to live

God help me--I can't go on--don't sit there and talk responsiblility and abuse to me! Not with what I have to replay over and over and over in my mind--a scene that happened over 10 years ago!

 

[SBG]

Joshua replied:

That particular baptist covenant was the unfortunate product of one church's covenant being included in a particular hymnal - and then being widely distributed as a result. I've never served in or been a member of a church that held such a covenant - nor would I.

Exactly! He'd only serve in a church where the attitude is "if it feels good do it". I started this thread, because I have friends that are struggling with this issue. They are exactly as the scenarios were presented. The problem I see with a lot of folks on this board, is that they want to walk with one foot in the world, and one foot in the church. Doesn't work that way! I pity so called professing Christians, that twist scripture, to protect their indulgence in sin. Spiritual discernment of the born again person is what tells us if something is right or wrong. Holy Spirit conviction!!!! Let me give you an example; I used to drink, never heavily, before I got saved. I have been "drunk" on numerous occasions. I praise God that he brought me out of that. I enjoyed the taste of beer, my flesh at times, lust for a cold beer. But I have to bring my body into subjection. Why? Because the Holy Spirit of God has given me a conviction. The bible teaches us to "Abstain from all appearance of evil". If the vast majority of the people around us, know that alcohol abuse is sin, and that for the most part, fundamental churches teach abstinence from alchohol, then if we buy it we may be a stumbling block to a lost person, who sees you buying it. The bible is so adament and clear about separation. That we are not to conform to the world. As christians, we are supposed to be different, a pecuiliar treasure! I know I can't change anyones mind on this, or any other topic that "steps on peolpes worldly toes" only God can change a life, and make a man a new creature. I pray for the salvation of those, whose lives are not a witness of the fruits of the new birth, who profess to be believers.

Matt. 7:20-23

 

[BrianT]

Originally posted by blackbird:
don't sit there and talk responsiblility and abuse to me!

Again, what you describe is truly a tragedy.

Have you ever watched a child die of AIDS? Or heard of a child killed because a gun was used irresponsibly?

Do you think Christ and the apostles drank wine responsibly or irresponsibly?

 

[Residential15]

Hellen,

You're absolutely right. Philippians 2 tells us to consider others better than ourselves. The issue is really one of selfishness versus service.

However, Ken, I do have a problem with your response. The issue is NOT that we govern our actions by other peoples' opinions. In Romans 14, Paul refers to a "stumbling block" as something completely different from "opinions." I know you know this, Ken. I'm just clarifying my own position. Paul says that whatever is not of faith is sin. If I have faith in God's Word that it allows the God-glorifying use of alcohol, then I may drink it. However, if the person I am discipling does not understand that and has been taught that drinking is a sin, I MIGHT cause a problem for him. If I entice him to drink, thus violating his conscience, then I have sinned as well as he.

Example: Several months ago I was at a restaurant with some Christian friends of mine. I was fully persuaded as I am now on the alcohol issue. But one of my friends was not. I asked if he minded if I got a drink. He said not at all. He said he was thinking about it himself. But when I realized that I may be enticing him to do something he was not biblically persuaded in yet, I cancelled my order and encouraged him not to order one for himself until he had come to scriptural conclusions. A month later, he told me he had studied all the relevant passages and had come to the same conclusion. We celebrated with a margarita!

To summarize, I am not shaped by people's opinions, but by the growth in faith of the Christians I am "directly" involved with.

One more thing: Alcohol does NOT destroy lives any more than sex does. It is a fleshly response of no self control that ruins lives. That applies with alcohol, sex, eating, entertainment, etc. One of the evidences of Spirit-control in a person's life is self-control in ALL these areas. That is the issue, not the alcohol itself. I feel very bad for families that are destroyed when people abuse alcohol. I also feel bad for marriages that are destroyed when people abuse God's gift of sex. However, no sad story can trump the truth. I would no more desire that God prohibit alcohol for Christians than I would that he prohibit eating for Christians just because some are grossly overweight.

 

[BrianT]

Originally posted by SBG:
If the vast majority of the people around us, know that alcohol abuse is sin, and that for the most part, fundamental churches teach abstinence from alchohol, then if we buy it we may be a stumbling block to a lost person, who sees you buying it. The bible is so adament and clear about separation.

SBG, I understand and appreciate what you are saying. And I would totally agree with you (in fact, I want to agree with you), if it were not for one important fact that all of you keep avoiding: by disagreeing with and speaking against those who say one can drink alcohol responsibly, you are also disagreeing with Christ himself.

Christ of all people would know the effects of alcohol abuse, Christ himself of all people would understand the "stumbling block" concept, and I'm certain there were drunkards in Christ's day - yet Christ and the apostles *still* drank wine. So even though what you say makes sense, Christ and the apostles did not follow that reasoning, and thus I must make a choice: believe you, or believe Christ's example that one can drink responsibly if one chooses to.

 

[Glory Bound]

It's real easy to say drinking alcohol is fine unless it is abused. But what is abuse? Where do you draw the line? How do you know you are approaching the line? Is one drink okay, but two are too much? Or are two drinks okay, but three are too much? How do you know your blood alcohol level?

Sure, you can recognize the extremes. But can you recognize the line between sober and drunk?

Each drink (including the first) adds alcohol to the blood stream. When do you go from sober to drunk?