Where does believing faith come from part 2

[webdog]

So you believe that water baptism must precede the forgiveness of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit?

The key to that verse is repentance, which is faith, not baptism. The gift of the Holy Spirit happens at justification.

 

[Winman]

So you believe that water baptism must precede the forgiveness of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit?

No, I agree with Webdog, the important thing is to repent, that is to turn from unbelief and trust Christ. If you read Acts chapter 2 you see how Peter has told these Jews that they have crucified the promised Messiah they had been waiting for. The charge against Jesus was blasphemy.

Matt 26:62 And the high priest arose, and said unto him, Answerest thou nothing? what is it which these witness against thee?
63 But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God.
64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
65 Then the high priest rent his clothes, saying, He hath spoken blasphemy; what further need have we of witnesses? behold, now ye have heard his blasphemy.
66 What think ye? They answered and said, He is guilty of death.

So, they had convinced all the people that Jesus was a blasphemer, declaring himself to be the Son of God.

And now Peter shows them that indeed Jesus was the promised Messiah they had waited for.

Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

So, this is why Peter told them they must repent. They must turn from unbelief in Jesus to believeing he was the promised Christ and trust on him.

Baptism does not save, but we are commanded to be baptized. It is identifying with the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ.

As I've showed many times, this passage clearly shows Calvinism false. First, it shows that unsaved, unregenerate man can desire to be saved. When the men were convicted by Peter's preaching, they asked Peter and the apostles what they should do. They knew they were in peril.

Acts 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

They were not believers when they asked this, neither did they have the Holy Spirit, because Peter told them they needed to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, and then they would receive the Spirit.

So, if Calvinism is true, and only the regenerate man can desire to be saved, then these men were regenerated but unsaved.

And the same with the Philipian jailer. He asked Paul what he must do to be saved. So he desired God while yet unregenerated. And Paul told him he must believe on Christ to be saved.

Acts 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.
33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.

So here again, if Calvinism is true, and the Philipian jailer had to be regenerated to desire to be saved, then he was regenerated while yet unsaved.

And notice that Paul first spoke the word of the Lord to the Philipian jailer and to everyone in his house, and they were baptized afterward.

It is just as Ephesians 1:13 says, first you hear the word of God, then believe and trust on Christ, and afterward receive the Holy Spirit.

You will ALWAYS see this order of events in scripture.

 

[Winman]

And furthermore in Acts 2, as I have already shown, Peter told these Jews to "save yourselves". So there you see in the scriptures that man plays a role in salvation.

Acts 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

If Peter were around today, all the Calvinists would be accusing him of blasphemy and stealing from the sovereignty of God.

 

[Dr. Bob]

The easy-believism group try to redefine "repent" in a ludicrous way - that it just means to "believe" (turn from unbelief is double negative and even a 3rd grader sees that)

So they say YES we must repent, but then ignore biblical repentance.

They will "biblically" repent of that willful error someday.

 

[Dr. Bob]

BTW, this thread is way past the normative 10-pages and firing off a warning shot that it will be shut down. I don't like to make MY post/point be the last one and give no one a chance to respond, so of my own free will I'm letting "whosoever" post!!

BTW, John 3:16 and "whosoever believeth" is an old translation of the simple participle "the believing ones". Have never figured out why some get on the whosoever bandwagon, when it is talking about the elect anyway (no one thinks that "the believing ones" are not elect, eh?

 

[Jerome]

"Now notice, to the reception of Christ by faith there is no limit. "He that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: and whosoever"—I am deeply in love with that word "whosoever." It is a splendid word." ---Charles Spurgeon

"I have often thought that, if I had read in Scripture that "If Charles Haddon Spurgeon shall call upon the name of the Lord, he shall be saved," I should not have felt half as sure of salvation as I do now, because I should have concluded that there might have been somebody else of that name, and very likely there is, and I should have said, "Surely it did not mean me;" but when the Lord says "Whosoever," I cannot get out of that circle. It is a big net that seems to entangle all men in its meshes. "Whosoever." If I call upon the name of the Lord, if you call upon the name of the Lord, if the man who lies upstairs a-dying calls upon the name of the Lord, we shall be saved. What a wide word that "whosoever" is!" ---Charles Spurgeon

 

[Winman]

BTW, this thread is way past the normative 10-pages and firing off a warning shot that it will be shut down. I don't like to make MY post/point be the last one and give no one a chance to respond, so of my own free will I'm letting "whosoever" post!!

BTW, John 3:16 and "whosoever believeth" is an old translation of the simple participle "the believing ones". Have never figured out why some get on the whosoever bandwagon, when it is talking about the elect anyway (no one thinks that "the believing ones" are not elect, eh?

Oh, but that is not so. The Jews were the elect of God, but they were broken off because of unbelief.

Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

Rom 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

All the Jews were chosen, all were elect, but those who did not believe were broken off.

Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

All the Jews were chosen, all were elect, all belonged to this olive tree. But those who did not believe were broken off. And if you will accept it, this shows that election is based upon those who believe.

But... if they turn from unbelief and trust Christ, they shall be graffed back in and once again become the elect.

Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

Now, it is true that in the end only those who believe are the elect. But those who are elect are not determined before time. Those who remain not in unbelief and trust on Christ can be graffed back into their own tree.

 

[webdog]

The easy-believism group try to redefine "repent" in a ludicrous way - that it just means to "believe" (turn from unbelief is double negative and even a 3rd grader sees that)

So they say YES we must repent, but then ignore biblical repentance.

They will "biblically" repent of that willful error someday.

Repentance is a change in direction, away from self towards Christ. That is biblical.

I thought 20 pages were the thread limit (sometimes it's stated as 30)

 

[OldRegular]

The key to that verse is repentance, which is faith, not baptism. The gift of the Holy Spirit happens at justification.

Since when is repentance Faith? Scripture please?

The gift of the Holy Spirit happens at justification? Scripture please?

And hurry before the thread closes please!

 

[OldRegular]

Oh, but that is not so. The Jews were the elect of God, but they were broken off because of unbelief.

Not all Jews were among the elect. Recall the Word of God to Elijah:

1 Kings 19:18. Yet I have left me seven thousand in Israel, all the knees which have not bowed unto Baal, and every mouth which hath not kissed him.

Also recall the words of the Apostle Paul:

Romans 9:6. Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

 

[TomVols]

"Now notice, to the reception of Christ by faith there is no limit. "He that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: and whosoever"—I am deeply in love with that word "whosoever." It is a splendid word." ---Charles Spurgeon

"I have often thought that, if I had read in Scripture that "If Charles Haddon Spurgeon shall call upon the name of the Lord, he shall be saved," I should not have felt half as sure of salvation as I do now, because I should have concluded that there might have been somebody else of that name, and very likely there is, and I should have said, "Surely it did not mean me;" but when the Lord says "Whosoever," I cannot get out of that circle. It is a big net that seems to entangle all men in its meshes. "Whosoever." If I call upon the name of the Lord, if you call upon the name of the Lord, if the man who lies upstairs a-dying calls upon the name of the Lord, we shall be saved. What a wide word that "whosoever" is!" ---Charles Spurgeon

Amen. And hear Spurgeon speak again:

"The old truth that Calvin preached, that Augustine preached, that Paul preached, is the truth that I must preach to-day, or else be false to my conscience and my God. I cannot shape the truth; I know of no such thing as paring off the rough edges of a doctrine. John Knox's gospel is my gospel. That which thundered through Scotland must thunder through England again."

I suppose there are some persons whose minds naturally incline towards the doctrine of free-will. I can only say that mine inclines as naturally towards the doctrines of sovereign grace.

If I am not at this moment without Christ, it is only because Christ Jesus would have His will with me, and that will was that I should be with Him where He is, and should share His glory. I can put the crown nowhere but upon the head of Him whose mighty grace has saved me from going down into the pit. Looking back on my past life, I can see that the dawning of it all was of God; of God effectively. I took no torch with which to light the sun, but the sun enlightened me. I did not commence my spiritual life—no, I rather kicked, and struggled against the things of the Spirit: when He drew me, for a time I did not run after Him: there was a natural hatred in my soul of everything holy and good. Wooings were lost upon me—warnings were cast to the wind—thunders were despised; and as for the whispers of His love, they were rejected as being less than nothing and vanity. But, sure I am, I can say now, speaking on behalf of myself, "He only is my salvation." It was He who turned my heart, and brought me down on my knees before Him.

Then, in the fulness of time, He purchased me with His blood; He let His heart run out in one deep gaping wound for me long ere I loved Him. Yea, when He first came to me, did I not spurn Him? When He knocked at the door, and asked for entrance, did I not drive Him away, and do despite to His grace? Ah, I can remember that I full often did so until, at last, by the power of His effectual grace, He said, "I must, I will come in;" and then He turned my heart, and made me love Him. But even till now I should have resisted Him, had it not been for His grace. Well, then since He purchased me when I was dead in sins, does it not follow, as a consequence necessary and logical, that He must have loved me first? Did my Saviour die for me because I believed on Him? No; I was not then in existence; I had then no being. Could the Saviour, therefore, have died because I had faith, when I myself was not yet born? Could that have been possible? Could that have been the origin of the Saviour's love towards me? Oh! no; my Saviour died for me long before I believed. "But," says someone, "He foresaw that you would have faith; and, therefore, He loved you." What did He foresee about my faith? Did He foresee that I should get that faith myself, and that I should believe on Him of myself? No; Christ could not foresee that, because no Christian man will ever say that faith came of itself without the gift and without the working of the Holy Spirit. I have met with a great many believers, and talked with them about this matter; but I never knew one who could put his hand on his heart, and say, "I believed in Jesus without the assistance of the Holy Spirit."

If the doctrine be true, that He died for all men, then He died for some who were in hell before He came into this world, for doubtless there were even then myriads there who had been cast away because of their sins. Once again, if it was Christ's intention to save all men, how deplorably has He been disappointed

There is no soul living who holds more firmly to the doctrines of grace than I do, and if any man asks me whether I am ashamed to be called a Calvinist, I answer—I wish to be called nothing but a Christian; but if you ask me, do I hold the doctrinal views which were held by John Calvin, I reply, I do in the main hold them, and rejoice to avow it.

Had a man been an Arminian in those days, he would have been accounted the vilest heretic breathing, but now we are looked upon as the heretics, and they as the orthodox. We have gone back to the old school; we can trace our descent from the apostles. It is that vein of free-grace, running through the sermonizing of Baptists, which has saved us as a denomination. Were it not for that, we should not stand where we are today. We can run a golden line up to Jesus Christ Himself, through a holy succession of mighty fathers, who all held these glorious truths; and we can ask concerning them, "Where will you find holier and better men in the world?" No doctrine is so calculated to preserve a man from sin as the doctrine of the grace of God. Those who have called it "a licentious doctrine" did not know anything at all about it. Poor ignorant things, they little knew that their own vile stuff was the most licentious doctrine under Heaven. If they knew the grace of God in truth, they would soon see that there was no preservative from lying like a knowledge that we are elect of God from the foundation of the world.

Let us heed his words here:

far be it from me even to imagine that Zion contains none but Calvinistic Christians within her walls, or that there are none saved who do not hold our views.

http://www.spurgeon.org/calvinis.htm

 

[Winman]

Since when is repentance Faith? Scripture please?

The gift of the Holy Spirit happens at justification? Scripture please?

And hurry before the thread closes please!

Mark 1:14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

To repent here means to turn from unbelief and believe. But it has to be taken in the context of the passage. A person can repent of a sin, that is, turn from the sin. But repent is in several places shown as believeing as in Acts 19:4.

Acts 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

I'll let Webdog answer the other question.

 

[Dr. Bob]

"Repent" and "Believe" are two totally separate verbs. They demand two totally separate actions.

The prayer of Paul (and prayer I have of the unregenerate) is that God might give them repentance and faith - again, two separate nouns, two totally different parts of what we call "born again".

This false view of "repentance is just believing" was made popular by Billy Graham to get a number of "decisions". Sadly, it was picked up by the IFBX crowd to get the big numbers to post in the Sword of the Lord.

Saving faith, the ability of believe that unregenerate man does not have, is totally different than a repentant heart (although unregenerate man does not have that capability either).

 

[Winman]

"Repent" and "Believe" are two totally separate verbs. They demand two totally separate actions.

The prayer of Paul (and prayer I have of the unregenerate) is that God might give them repentance and faith - again, two separate nouns, two totally different parts of what we call "born again".

This false view of "repentance is just believing" was made popular by Billy Graham to get a number of "decisions". Sadly, it was picked up by the IFBX crowd to get the big numbers to post in the Sword of the Lord.

Saving faith, the ability of believe that unregenerate man does not have, is totally different than a repentant heart (although unregenerate man does not have that capability either).

So we should just disregard the words of our Lord Jesus, John the Baptist, and Paul in the two verses I just posted?

And I have already shown examples of unsaved, unregenerated men who desired to be saved, the rich young ruler, and the Philipian jailer.

And here's another, the publican.

Luke 18:10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

Show me one word in this passage (or anywhere in the scriptures) that this publican was regenerated by the Holy Spirit to repent and come to the Lord for mercy.

 

[OldRegular]

Mark 1:14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

To repent here means to turn from unbelief and believe. But it has to be taken in the context of the passage. A person can repent of a sin, that is, turn from the sin. But repent is in several places shown as believeing as in Acts 19:4.

Acts 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

I'll let Webdog answer the other question.

Sorry but your response is not valid. It does not show that repentance is faith.

 

[OldRegular]

TomVols

Great quotes from Spurgeon!

 

[Dr. Bob]

Sorry but your response is not valid. It does not show that repentance is faith.

Orwell would be proud of the newspeak.

Newspeak simply removes all shades of meaning from language, leaving simple dichotomies and no real firm definitions or historic meanings. Post-modernism on steroids, I'd say.

Pain is pleasure
Sadness is happiness
Repentance is faith

Yep. Goodthink

 

[webdog]

Since when is repentance Faith? Scripture please?

The gift of the Holy Spirit happens at justification? Scripture please?

And hurry before the thread closes please!

You have been provided with Scripture already, and the very definition of repent means to turn in the other direction. Repentance and faith are two sides of the same coin.

brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house" (Acts 16:30-31)

When a person is born again (AFTER faith in Christ) they are indwelt with the Holy Spirit. I can't believe someone would disagree with that!

 

[Winman]

When a person is born again (AFTER faith in Christ) they are indwelt with the Holy Spirit. I can't believe someone would disagree with that!

But they do disagree with that. Old Regular posted this in another thread.

1. Regeneration

The initial event in salvation is regeneration, the theological term synonymous with ‘rebirth’ or ‘being born again’. Regeneration is solely the work of God the Holy Spirit whereby those who are spiritually dead in trespass and sin are made spiritual alive and are brought into union with Jesus Christ [Ephesians 2:1-9]. Although Regeneration is the initial event in Salvation the following aspects are not necessarily in chronological order.

(emphasis mine in above quote)

They believe a person must be regenerated or "born again" before they can have what they call "saving faith" or before they can accept and believe the gospel.

They do not believe faith is a requirement to be born again. Old Regular implies this with his very words.

Notice that this New Birth is the work of the Holy Spirit alone. Nothing is said about the requirement of prior faith.

And Havensdad made this comment:

He tells us, elsewhere, that if the father does not draw you, if the father does not give you ears to hear, if the father does not give you new birth you cannot even hear the Gospel, which the scriptures say is what causes faith.

(emphasis mine in the above quote)

So, they do not believe being born again is salvation. It is just the initial step. And they do not believe faith is necessary to be born again, in fact they believe you must first be born again before you are enabled by God to have faith.

But the scriptures say we are born again "by the word of God"

1 Pet 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

The scriptures show a man must first hear the word of God and believe it to be born again.

1 Thess 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

1 Peter 1:23 says we are born again by the word of God, and 1 Thess 2:13 shows that the word of God only effectually works in those who believe it. Therefore you must hear the word of God and believe it to be born again, which proves an unregenerate man has the ability to both hear and believe the word of God.

Heb 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

You cannot be born again without the word of God (1 Peter 1:23), but you must believe the gospel for it to work effectually and profit you.

 

[OldRegular]

You have been provided with Scripture already, and the very definition of repent means to turn in the other direction. Repentance and faith are two sides of the same coin.

brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house" (Acts 16:30-31)

When a person is born again (AFTER faith in Christ) they are indwelt with the Holy Spirit. I can't believe someone would disagree with that!

Sorry but your response is not valid. Repentance and faith may be sides of the same coin but they are different sides not the same! Also no scripture showing that the gift of the Holy Spirit happens at justification!