OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Yet you do argue that you have complete freewill to accept or reject the quickening of the Holy Spirit. By the way "quicken" in the KJV means "make alive".
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Where does believing faith come from part 4
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Yet you do argue that you have complete freewill to accept or reject the quickening of the Holy Spirit. By the way "quicken" in the KJV means "make alive".
Old Regular
Your concept is very difficult to understand. You believe that a man does nothing whatsoever, because if he does, this frustrates the grace of God.
So, have you ever called on Jesus Christ? Do you pray? I mean, by your concept, doing anything whatsoever seems to be a work.
You can believe an airliner will take you from Chicago to New York. But will simply believing that get you from Chicago to New York? Of course not, you have to actually get on the plane and trust it to get you there. And it is trust, you are putting your life at risk by getting on that plane. I have flown a few times, but honestly, I am not crazy about it and prefer to drive long trips. I like to be in control of what happens to me, I do not like to trust my life into the hands and control of another.
The action is a result of the faith. Jesus showed this himself on the cross.
Luke 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.
Jesus here was saying that he would not fight death. He was the Son of God. He walked on water. Do you not believe he could have come down from the cross if he wanted? But that is not what Jesus did here, he voluntarily died. He was the first to die on the cross, Pilate was amazed at how quickly he died. They had to break the other men's legs to get them to die before sunset, but with Jesus it was not necessary.
Mark 15:44 And Pilate marvelled if he were already dead: and calling unto him the centurion, he asked him whether he had been any while dead.
Do you not see here what believing or trust is? Jesus did not fight death. He gave up and died and trusted his soul into the hands of his Father. He let himself die, and trusted and depended that the Father would raise him from the dead as he promised.
This is the perfect example of faith. It is giving up, it is letting go, it is surrendering yourself into the care of another. It is not a work, it is a ceasing of work.
But Jesus still did something, he allowed himself to die. But that action was a result of his faith. If he did not believe his Father would raise him from the dead, he would have fought to the last breath to live, or come down by his own power. He did neither. But that in itself is a work. Notice it says "he gave up the ghost". That is doing something.
You can't do absolutely nothing and be saved. Do what Jesus said, come to him, call on him, look to him, ask of him. He is not going to be offended by you obeying exactly what he said to do.
Matt 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Jesus is not going to be mad if you come to him, that is what he commanded you to do. In fact, if you do not come to him you will be lost.
John 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
Doing nothing at all is not the way to go.
Your concept is very difficult to understand. You believe that a man does nothing whatsoever, because if he does, this frustrates the grace of God.
So, have you ever called on Jesus Christ? Do you pray? I mean, by your concept, doing anything whatsoever seems to be a work.
You can believe an airliner will take you from Chicago to New York. But will simply believing that get you from Chicago to New York? Of course not, you have to actually get on the plane and trust it to get you there. And it is trust, you are putting your life at risk by getting on that plane. I have flown a few times, but honestly, I am not crazy about it and prefer to drive long trips. I like to be in control of what happens to me, I do not like to trust my life into the hands and control of another.
The action is a result of the faith. Jesus showed this himself on the cross.
Luke 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.
Jesus here was saying that he would not fight death. He was the Son of God. He walked on water. Do you not believe he could have come down from the cross if he wanted? But that is not what Jesus did here, he voluntarily died. He was the first to die on the cross, Pilate was amazed at how quickly he died. They had to break the other men's legs to get them to die before sunset, but with Jesus it was not necessary.
Mark 15:44 And Pilate marvelled if he were already dead: and calling unto him the centurion, he asked him whether he had been any while dead.
Do you not see here what believing or trust is? Jesus did not fight death. He gave up and died and trusted his soul into the hands of his Father. He let himself die, and trusted and depended that the Father would raise him from the dead as he promised.
This is the perfect example of faith. It is giving up, it is letting go, it is surrendering yourself into the care of another. It is not a work, it is a ceasing of work.
But Jesus still did something, he allowed himself to die. But that action was a result of his faith. If he did not believe his Father would raise him from the dead, he would have fought to the last breath to live, or come down by his own power. He did neither. But that in itself is a work. Notice it says "he gave up the ghost". That is doing something.
You can't do absolutely nothing and be saved. Do what Jesus said, come to him, call on him, look to him, ask of him. He is not going to be offended by you obeying exactly what he said to do.
Matt 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Jesus is not going to be mad if you come to him, that is what he commanded you to do. In fact, if you do not come to him you will be lost.
John 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
Doing nothing at all is not the way to go.
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Obviously the Holy Spirit can be and has been rejected.
Act 7:51 ¶Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers [did], so [do] ye.
These Jews that Stephen was speaking to refused to be believe that Jesus was their Messiah, yet he clearly says that the Holy Spirit was working to draw them, otherwise He could not be resisted.
This verse contradicts the I in the tulip. His grace is resistible.
Act 7:51 ¶Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers [did], so [do] ye.
These Jews that Stephen was speaking to refused to be believe that Jesus was their Messiah, yet he clearly says that the Holy Spirit was working to draw them, otherwise He could not be resisted.
This verse contradicts the I in the tulip. His grace is resistible.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
I have responded to this many times but will do so once again. Something you have failed to do preacher. I thought that was one of your callings, to exegete, not eisegete, Scripture.
A person who is physically dead is totally unable to do anything on his own to alter his state, change his condition. Outside intervention is required!
Similarly a person who is spiritually dead in trespass and sin is totally unable to change his condition, his relation to God. Outside intervention is required. That intervention is provided by the Holy Spirit and that intervention precedes any act of faith on the part of man. The consequence of this intervention is the New Birth or Regeneration. You do realize don't you preacher that Jesus Christ states: That which is born of Spirit is spirit.[/b] So once again the Holy Spirit is the agent of the New Birth or regeneration and the gift of faith follows this New Birth. Of course Jesus Christ [John 3:3-8] and the Apostle Paul [Ephesians 2:1-8] explain it much better but you don't believe them either do you preacher. Of course all of the above must be considered in light of what Jesus Christ said about the New Birth, namely: The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. [John 3:8]
So you see preacher it is not required that one understand the mechanics of the New Birth. Jesus Christ notes that it really is beyond mortal understanding. You do see that don't you. Scripture also says: For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. [Isaiah 55:9] Also important is the following Scripture: For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it? [1 Corinthians 4:7]
But of course preacher, being Pelagian, semi-Pelagian,, or Arminian, [You refuse to say which.] you do not believe that man is spiritually dead but of his own free will decides whether he chooses God's gracious offer of Salvation or damnation. In other words man not God is sovereign in Salvation.
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OldRegular
Well-Known Member
I don't use the term irresistible grace. In fact I don't use TULIP. I use the term New Birth or Regeneration, God changes the nature of His elect so that they desire Him. It is really quite simple.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
That is utter nonsense and quite insulting. You think you saved yourself so I ask do you feel the need to pray recognizing that your will super-cedes the will of God.
You continue to show your utter ignorance of the doctrines of the Sovereign Grace of God in Salvation. I posted earlier the multiple facets of Salvation. Did you bother to read them? If you did then you must realize the stupidity of your statement: "You believe that a man does nothing whatsoever, because if he does, this frustrates the grace of God."
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OldRegular
Well-Known Member
You, preacher, are a poor one to talk about slur and personal attack. You have on more than one occasion cleverly questioned my salvation. Clever enough that it cannot be called to the attention of the administrator. I have said before and I say again that you should not be a moderator.
You are supposedly a preacher and I don't recall you being overly ambitious in commenting on Scripture. You leave most of the work to Winman. You say you believe the passages John 3:3-8 and Ephesians 2:1-8 then explain them so that they support your belief that you are the author and finisher of your salvation.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
I have posted on more than one occasion that this has nothing to do with faith.
The problem with your belief is that it makes God responsible for sin and takes away man's personal responsibility.
If God could save the elect as you believe, could he not also save all men?
There are so many things wrong with this concept, I have a hard time understanding how a Calvinist or Doctrine of Gracer can rationalize this away.
A man molests and kills a little child. God allows this. But if God wanted, he could have regenerated that man to be a believer and be a good man who brings honor and glory to him. But God allows him to do evil and hurt innocent children.
Hitler and his mob roast 6 million Jews, God's supposedly chosen people in ovens. God just sits back and watches. Oh, he could have regenerated Hitler, perhaps he would have been a great preacher and spread the gospel. But no, God just lets it happen. In fact, he determined it would happen if your doctrine is true.
And God must be responsible if your doctrine is true. He is completely in charge, man cannot change one single thing he has determined beforehand.
Why pray for your family member to be saved? What good will it do? Before they were even born God determined they would be tortured forever in the lake of fire. Save your breath, prayer is meaningless, everything has already been determined, there is nothing you or anyone else can do to change it.
Why get mad about who the President is and his policies? This is how God wants it, so get used to it. If we go Socialist, this must be his will or it wouldn't be happening. So quit complaining, are you trying to ursurp God's sovereignty? God obviously wants this pro-abortion man in charge of our country.
And God is irresponsible if your doctrine is true. He allows men to do evil. In fact he guarantees they will do evil. After all, it is impossible for them to do good unless he regenerates them. But then he childishly punishes them for something they had no control over.
All I can say is Wow. How any thinking person can believe this is astounding.
You have failed to expound on the very Scriptures that you posted. You have read into them some of your own preconceived ideas (or shall I say Calvin's ideas), but you haven't expounded them. Consider what they say:
John 3:1-2 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews: The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
--Nicodemus knew who Jesus was because he had seen his works (miracles), and had heard him speak. He had to come to him at night because he was a member of the Sanhedrin; a rabbi; a ruler of the Jews. He wanted to know how to have eternal life; how to enter the kingdom of God?
What was the answer of Jesus?
John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
--Nicodemus, you must be born again. This is the first of three times that Jesus makes this statement. It is important that a man be born again.
If a man is born once, he will die twice; if he is born twice, he will die once.
Nicodemus needed to learn that basic truth.
But Nicodemus did not understand what Jesus was talking about. Perhaps he was referring to reincarnation or something like that, for his answer was:
John 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
--a sign of confusion.
Again Jesus said:
John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
--This is the key verse of the entire passage.
You must be born of "water" and of "the Spirit." Note that there are two agents that Jesus requires that are involved in the new birth--water and the Holy Spirit. We all know that the Holy Spirit is involved in the New Birth. But what does the "water" represent. It is symbolic of something, but what? Look at the possibilities:
1. Is it literal water--amniotic fluid: the flesh. Many believe this. I suppose that it is a plausible view, but unlikely. It is hardly likely that Nicodemus would be thinking of amniotic fluid in this conversation.
2. Baptism--the RCC and COC view. This is a heretical view used to justify baptismal regeneration. There is no justification for water to symbolize baptism. It is no where in the text, and Nicodemus would not have baptism on his mind.
What else could it be? What would Nicodemus be thinking?
What is the purpose of water? Water is a cleansing agent. That is its purpose. Nicodemus's mind would go straight back to the OT which he knew so well:
Psalms 119:9 Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way? by taking heed thereto according to thy word.
--The Word of God cleanses.
Nicodemus and Jesus were probably somewhat close to the Temple. There at the Temple the Jews went through countless of ceremonial washings every day. Water is an agent of cleansing.
Jesus also emphasized this fact later on:
John 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
--It is the Word that cleanses us. The Word is a cleansing agent.
Remember there are only two agents by which a person is born again--water and the Spirit. Now we see it is the Word and the Spirit.
Look again:
James 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
--God begat us with the word. We are born again with the word.
There are only two agents by which we are born again--the Word (water) and the Spirit
Look again:
1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
--This statement is so clear it cannot be ignored.
We are born again by the word of God (which was symbolized by water), and by the Holy Spirit.
If there is no Word of God, no gospel message, it is impossible to be saved. One must have a message to believe. One must have the Holy Spirit to be born again; the Word of God also to be born again. Both are absolutely necessary.
Now look here:
John 1:11-13 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
--The Jews out of their own free will rejected Christ. It was their choice. They rejected Him, and crucified him.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
--Salvation comes to those that believe on his name. We are made children of God by putting our faith and trust in Him.
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Believing in Christ; salvation; is to be born of God. It comes by faith.
Because you don't understand doesn't make it not true. It is what the Bible teaches. Regeneration/salvation/the new birth, are all by grace through faith, and that not of yourself. It is by your faith, not God's. You must choose, not God. He does not choose for you. The new birth comes by one putting their faith in work of Christ provided by the grace of God.
The wind bloweth where it listeth. That simply speaks of the work of the Holy Spirit. We cannot see Him, but we can see the results of His work. It does not say that we cannot understand how he works.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Winman
You are again demonstrating your ignorance of the Doctrine of the Sovereign Grace of God in Salvation. Why not do a little reading before you make such ridiculous statements?
There is nothing in this doctrine that says God is responsible for sin. God created man upright or righteous and gave him free will . Man rebelled, sin and death entered the world, and man placed himself in bondage to sin. He no longer had a free will as you claim. He thinks he does but his thought process is corrupted by sin.
There is nothing in Scripture or in the Doctrine of Sovereign Grace that states that man is not responsible for his sin.
God is still responsible because he could easily regenerate all men.
We are held responsible as parents for our children. I cannot leave a small child home alone unattended. I cannot leave them in the car on a 98 degree day with the windows rolled up while I do shopping. I am not allowed to let them play unattended in a busy road.
No, I am held responsible for them. It is my duty to take care of them and provide for them. A two year old cannot hold a job and earn the money to buy the food he or she needs to live.
And this is the way God has left man if your doctrine is true. Man must perish, he cannot possibly help himself as a little child cannot fend for himself. God could easily regenerate these people and save them. Obviously God does not really love men the way he says he does in the scriptures.
You are so used to rationalizing your own doctrine away that you cannot see how absurd it is. We hold men accountable to take care of their children, but God can do whatever he wants. God is a hypocritical parent who expects us to live by rules that he himself never follows. God tells us not to do anything that would cause our fellow man to stumble and fall, and yet he sits back and watches billions perish when he could easily save them.
If there ever was a case for arguing that some men are blinded, your doctrine is the best argument I've ever seen for this.
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OldRegular
Well-Known Member
All the above is pure eisegesis. I can't even say you are good at it.
Now why do you want to say that the Word of God is water when the first chapter of John's Gospel clearly tells us that the Word is Jesus Christ. Saying water is the Word is one problem with your eisegesis above. If it could be construed as the Word we would only have to refer to John 1:1 to see that it is Jesus Christ. We are born again by the Word of God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit. Jesus Christ paid the penalty for our sins, the Holy Spirit applies the atoning work of Jesus Christ to the elect in the New Birth or Regeneration.
That is not what Jesus Christ [Matthew 13:10-15] said and the Apostle Paul [Acts 28:25-28] said.
Very good preacher. Those who were born of God [verse 13] are those who received Jesus Christ and believed on His Name, that is in Him. That is what some have been trying to tell you all along. Once the Holy Spirit New Birth's or Regenerates a man He gives him the gift of faith. For this new creation in Jesus Christ the Gospel call then becomes the effectual call and he exercises the gift of Faith. You see those mentioned in verse 12 the ones He gave power to become the sons of God are those: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. [verse 13]. They became the children of God after they were born of God, not before. The adoption did not precede the birth.
You are partially correct here. Regeneration or the New Birth is not all that is involved in Salvation. there is conversion, wherein one responds to the Gospel in faith and repentance, there is pardon, justification; well I posted the different aspects earlier.
You also correctly state that it is our faith not God's but only because He gave it to. Now God is not an Indian giver you know.
Do you understand? Enlighten everyone.
You did do a pretty good job after you finished the eisegesis you know. Just needed a few editing changes here and there.
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OldRegular
Well-Known Member
I will tell you what Job. You take God to task for not saving all men when you see Him! Do That!
And that is your excuse. I expounded the Word of God--verse by verse, giving a clear sense of the passage, comparing Scripture with Scripture. You can't even refute what I posted. The above remark is the best you can do. Like I said at the beginning, you can't explain what it means to be born again. You don't understand the new birth and are at a loss to explain it.
Tom Butler
New Member
Winman said:
I've extracted this quote from one of Winman's posts, not to debate the subject at hand, but to alert everybody that I'm going to start a new thread around the question, Did Jesus Have Faith. Watch for it.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
In fairness to DHK who did such a wonderful job presenting his flawed interpretation of the New Birth or Regeneration I will expound briefly on John 3:5 which DHK calls "the key verse of the entire passage."
5. Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Speaking of verse 5, DHK writes correctly of possible implications of the term "born of water", namely:
1. Is it literal water--amniotic fluid: the flesh.
I believe there is some merit to this view since in verse 6 Jesus Christ states: That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
This may be the correct view though I believe there is an acceptable alternative, different of course from DHK.
2. Baptism--the RCC and COC view.
I agree with DHK that this view is incorrect, and the use of this passage to indicate baptismal regeneration is heretical.
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Then DHK jumps into the mind of Nicodemus and takes him back to the OLD Testament, saying: Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way? by taking heed thereto according to thy word. [Psalms 119:9 ]
The water then becomes the word, the Word of God. Unacceptable unless DHK can show Scripture where water is used in reference to the Word of God.
There is a much preferred explanation, the water represents the Holy Spirit. In John 4:14 we read: But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.
There is an reason to believe that this passage is in reference to the Gift of the Holy Spirit. In John 7:38, 39 we read: He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.) Here we see an obvious connection between water and the Holy Spirit.
Note, however, that Jesus Christ tells the woman at the well: the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life. Now what is the prime source of everlasting life? Certainly those who are given everlasting life receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. However if the water means Holy Spirit then the passage John 3:5] would read: 5. Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of the Holy Spirit and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. an unnecessary repetitive use of the Holy Spirit.
So what is the most logical meaning of the water in Verse 3:5 whan used in conjunction with the Holy Spirit. It is the Grace of God. Note again verse 4:14: But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.
Now what is the source of eternal life. The obvious response is God. But God does not really fit the semantics of the verse, given that God the Holy Spirit is also mentioned. Consider again the source of eternal life. It is of course God but that life is manifested or given only by the Grace of God.
Now see how verse 3:5 would read: Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of the Grace of God and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Is this not consistent with other Scripture: For by Grace are ye saved [Ephesians 2:8]
Acts 15:11. But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
Romans 3:24. Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
2 Corinthians 9:8. And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work:
Ephesians 1:6. To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
Now Grace is the unmerited favor of God. It is only through this unmerited favor that we are regenerated or "born again". It is only through this unmerited favor that we are granted admittance into the Kingdom of God. The purchase price of that Grace, the atoning death of Jesus Christ. All Glory to His Name!
The Archangel
Well-Known Member
There are things in your interpretation that are correct--water is not amniotic fluid, etc.
However, there is something you missed. When Jesus tells Nicodemus in v. 5 "unless one is born of water and the spirit" the verb, born, is passive.
So, Jesus is telling that this must be done to Nicodemus by an outside person; it is not something Nicodemus can do for himself. This is likely an instance of the so-called "Divine Passive" where God is the understood actor.
The point is, though, Nicodemus is not doing these things to himself.
Further, since God is the actor--borning (to coin a term) Nicodemus by water and spirit we must look for a similar Old Testament passage where God Himself is doing the work. Ezekiel 36 is the appropriate passage:
22 “Therefore say to the house of Israel, Thus says the Lord God: It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am about to act, but for the sake of my holy name, which you have profaned among the nations to which you came. 23 And I will vindicate the holiness of my great name, which has been profaned among the nations, and which you have profaned among them. And the nations will know that I am the Lord, declares the Lord God, when through you I vindicate my holiness before their eyes. 24 I will take you from the nations and gather you from all the countries and bring you into your own land. 25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. 26 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules. 28 You shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers, and you shall be my people, and I will be your God. 29 And I will deliver you from all your uncleannesses. And I will summon the grain and make it abundant and lay no famine upon you. 30 I will make the fruit of the tree and the increase of the field abundant, that you may never again suffer the disgrace of famine among the nations. 31 Then you will remember your evil ways, and your deeds that were not good, and you will loathe yourselves for your iniquities and your abominations. 32 It is not for your sake that I will act, declares the Lord God; let that be known to you. Be ashamed and confounded for your ways, O house of Israel.
God is doing the action in this passage, just as the Greek passive tells us He is doing the action in John 3.
Psalm 119:9 can't fit because the passage is talking about keeping on the path, not returning to the path. Further, the Psalm 119 passage makes it clear the subject is the one acting which will not conform to John 3 where the subject, Nicodemus, is acted upon.
Blessings
The Archangel
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