Where does believing faith come from part 4

[webdog]

So in other words, knowing the English language in which our Bible is translated isn't good enough. We have to know Greek and know that "it" wasn't in the Greek, and understand participles and must know whether the word was masculine or feminine, past or present tense and so on and so on and so on........................

I think I'll just toss by English Bibles in the trash. I am unable to understand them.

There are many greek scholars that don't agree with his understanding of it as well.

 

[OldRegular]

Matthew Henry's exposition on Ephesians 2:1-8.

INTRODUCTION TO EPHESIANS CHAPTER 2

This chapter contains an account,

I. Of the miserable condition of these Ephesians by nature (Eph 2:1-3) and again, Eph 2:11,12.

II. Of the glorious change that was wrought in them by converting grace (Eph 2:4-10) and again, Eph 2:13.

III. Of the great and mighty privileges that both converted Jews and Gentiles receive from Christ, Eph 2:14-22. The apostle endeavours to affect them with a due sense of the wonderful change which divine grace had wrought in them; and this is very applicable to that great change which the same grace works in all those who are brought into a state of grace. So that we have here a lively picture both of the misery of unregenerate men and of the happy condition of converted souls, enough to awaken and alarm those who are yet in their sins and to put them upon hastening out of that state, and to comfort and delight those whom God hath quickened, with a consideration of the mighty privileges with which they are invested.

Ver. 1.

The miserable condition of the Ephesians by nature is here in part described. Observe,

1. Unregenerate souls are dead in trespasses and sins. All those who are in their sins, are dead in sins; yea, in trespasses and sins, which may signify all sorts of sins, habitual and actual, sins of heart and of life. Sin is the death of the soul. Wherever that prevails there is a privation of all spiritual life. Sinners are dead in state, being destitute of the principles, and powers of spiritual life; and cut off from God, the fountain of life: and they are dead in law, as a condemned malefactor is said to be a dead man.

2. A state of sin is a state of conformity to this world, Eph 2:2. In the first verse he speaks of their internal state, in this of their outward conversation: Wherein, in which trespasses and sins, in time past you walked, you lived and behaved yourselves in such a manner as the men of the world are used to do.

3. We are by nature bond-slaves to sin and Satan. Those who walk in trespasses and sins, and according to the course of this world, walk according to the prince of the power of the air. The devil, or the prince of devils, is thus described. See Mt 12:24,26. The legions of apostate angels are as one power united under one chief; and therefore what is called the powers of darkness elsewhere is here spoken of in the singular number. The air is represented as the seat of his kingdom: and it was the opinion of both Jews and heathens that the air is full of spirits, and that there they exercise and exert themselves. The devil seems to have some power (by God's permission) in the lower region of the air; there he is at hand to tempt men, and to do as much mischief to the world as he can: but it is the comfort and joy of God's people that he who is head over all things to the church has conquered the devil and has him in his chain. But wicked men are slaves to Satan, for they walk according to him; they conform their lives and actions to the will and pleasure of this great usurper. The course and tenour of their lives are according to his suggestions, and in compliance with his temptations; they are subject to him, and are led captive by him at his will, whereupon he is called the god of this world, and the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience. The children of disobedience are such as choose to disobey God, and to serve the devil; in these he works very powerfully and effectually. As the good Spirit works that which is good in obedient souls, so this evil spirit works that which is evil in wicked men; and he now works, not only heretofore, but even since the world has been blessed with the light of the glorious gospel. The apostle adds, Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past, which words refer to the Jews, whom he signifies here to have been in the like sad and miserable condition by nature, and to have been as vile and wicked as the unregenerate Gentiles themselves, and whose natural state he further describes in the next words.

4. We are by nature drudges to the flesh, and to our corrupt affections, Eph 2:3. By fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, men contract that filthiness of flesh and spirit from which the apostle exhorts Christians to cleanse themselves, 2Co 7:1. The fulfilling of the desires of the flesh and of the mind includes all the sin and wickedness that are acted in and by both the inferior and the higher or nobler powers of the soul. We lived in the actual commission of all those sins to which corrupt nature inclined us. The carnal mind makes a man a perfect slave to his vicious appetite.--The fulfilling of the wills of the flesh, so the words may be rendered, denoting the efficacy of these lusts, and what power they have over those who yield themselves up unto them.

5. We are by nature the children of wrath, even as others. The Jews were so, as well as the Gentiles; and one man is as much so as another by nature, not only by custom and imitation, but from the time when we began to exist, and by reason of our natural inclinations and appetites. All men, being naturally children of disobedience, are also by nature children of wrath: God is angry with the wicked every day. Our state and course are such as deserve wrath, and would end in eternal wrath, if divine grace did not interpose. What reason have sinners then to be looking out for that grace that will make them, of children of wrath, children of God and heirs of glory! Thus far the apostle has described the misery of a natural state in these verses, which we shall find him pursuing again in some following

Continued in following Post.

 

[OldRegular]

Continued from preceding Post.

Matthew Henry's exposition on Ephesians 2:1-8.

INTRODUCTION TO EPHESIANS CHAPTER 2

This chapter contains an account,

I. Of the miserable condition of these Ephesians by nature (Eph 2:1-3) and again, Eph 2:11,12.

II. Of the glorious change that was wrought in them by converting grace (Eph 2:4-10) and again, Eph 2:13.

III. Of the great and mighty privileges that both converted Jews and Gentiles receive from Christ, Eph 2:14-22. The apostle endeavours to affect them with a due sense of the wonderful change which divine grace had wrought in them; and this is very applicable to that great change which the same grace works in all those who are brought into a state of grace. So that we have here a lively picture both of the misery of unregenerate men and of the happy condition of converted souls, enough to awaken and alarm those who are yet in their sins and to put them upon hastening out of that state, and to comfort and delight those whom God hath quickened, with a consideration of the mighty privileges with which they are invested.

Ver. 4.

Here the apostle begins his account of the glorious change that was wrought in them by converting grace, where observe,

I. By whom, and in what manner, it was brought about and effected.

1. Negatively: Not of yourselves, Eph 2:8. Our faith, our conversion, and our eternal salvation, are not the mere product of any natural abilities, nor of any merit of our own: Not of works, lest any man should boast, Eph 2:9. These things are not brought to pass by any thing done by us, and therefore all boasting is excluded; he who glories must not glory in himself, but in the Lord. There is no room for any man's boasting of his own abilities and power; or as though he had done any thing that might deserve such immense favours from God.

2. Positively: But God, who is rich in mercy, &c., Eph 2:4. God himself is the author of this great and happy change, and his great love is the spring and fontal cause of it; hence he resolved to show mercy. Love is his inclination to do us good considered simply as creatures; mercy respects us as apostate and as miserable creatures. Observe, God's eternal love or good-will towards his creatures is the fountain whence all his mercies vouch safe to us proceed; and that love of God is great love, and that mercy of his is rich mercy, inexpressibly great and inexhaustibly rich. And then by grace you are saved (Eph 2:5), and by grace are you saved through faith--it is the gift of God, Eph 2:8. Note, Every converted sinner is a saved sinner. Such are delivered from sin and wrath; they are brought into a state of salvation, and have a right given them by grace to eternal happiness. The grace that saves them is the free undeserved goodness and favour of God; and he saves them, not by the works of the law, but through faith in Christ Jesus, by means of which they come to partake of the great blessings of the gospel; and both that faith and that salvation on which it has so great an influence are the gift of God. The great objects of faith are made known by divine revelation, and made credible by the testimony and evidence which God hath given us; and that we believe to salvation and obtain salvation through faith is entirely owing to divine assistance and grace; God has ordered all so that the whole shall appear to be of grace. Observe,

II. Wherein this change consists, in several particulars, answering to the misery of our natural state, some of which are enumerated in this section, and others are mentioned below.

1. We who were dead are quickened (Eph 2:5), we are saved from the death of sin and have a principle of spiritual life implanted in us. Grace in the soul is a new life in the soul. As death locks up the senses, seals up all the powers and faculties, so does a state of sin, as to any thing that is good. Grace unlocks and opens all, and enlarges the soul. Observe, A regenerate sinner becomes a living soul: he lives a life of sanctification, being born of God; and he lives in the sense of the law, being delivered from the guilt of sin by pardoning and justifying grace. He hath quickened us together with Christ. Our spiritual life results from our union with Christ; it is in him that we live: Because I live, you shall live also.

2. We who were buried are raised up, Eph 2:6. What remains yet to be done is here spoken of as though it were already past, though indeed we are raised up in virtue of our union with him whom God hath raised from the dead. When he raised Christ from the dead, he did in effect raise up all believers together with him, he being their common head; and when he placed him at his right hand in heavenly places, he advanced and glorified them in and with him, their raised and exalted head and forerunner.--And made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus. This may be understood in another sense. Sinners roll themselves in the dust; sanctified souls sit in heavenly places, are raised above the world; the world is as nothing to them, compared with what it has been, and compared with what the other world is. Saints are not only Christ's freemen, but they are assessors with him; by the assistance of his grace they have ascended with him above this world to converse with another, and they live in the constant expectation of it. They are not only servants to the best of masters in the best work, but they are exalted to reign with him; they sit upon the throne with Christ, as he has sat down with his Father on his throne.

III. Observe what is the great design and aim of God in producing and effecting this change: And this,

1. With respect to others: That in the ages to come he might show, &c. Eph 2:7, that he might give a specimen and proof of his great goodness and mercy, for the encouragement of sinners in future time. Observe, The goodness of God in converting and saving sinners heretofore is a proper encouragement to others in after-time to hope in his grace and mercy, and to apply themselves to these. God having this in his design, poor sinners should take great encouragement from it. And what may we not hope for from such grace and kindness, from riches of grace, to which this change is owing? Through Christ Jesus, by and through whom God conveys all his favour and blessings to us.

2. With respect to the regenerated sinners themselves: For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, &c., Eph 2:10. It appears that all is of grace, because all our spiritual advantages are from God. We are his workmanship; he means in respect of the new creation; not only as men, but as saints. The new man is a new creature; and God is its Creator. It is a new birth, and we are born or begotten of his will. In Christ Jesus, that is, on the account of what he has done and suffered, and by the influence and operation of his blessed Spirit. Unto good works, &c. The apostle having before ascribed this change to divine grace in exclusion of works, lest he should seem thereby to discourage good works, he here observes that though the change is to be ascribed to nothing of that nature (for we are the workmanship of God), yet God, in his new creation, has designed and prepared us for good works: Created unto good works, with a design that we should be fruitful in them. Wherever God by his grace implants good principles, they are intended to be for good works. Which God hath before ordained, that is, decreed and appointed. Or, the words may be read, To which God hath before prepared us, that is, by blessing us with the knowledge of his will, and with the assistance of his Holy Spirit; and by producing such a change in us. That we should walk in them, or glorify God by an exemplary conversation and by our perseverance in holiness. ones.

 

[DHK]

No. "Gar" does not indicate a "conclusion." Paul makes his somewhat linear arguments through the use of gar. Rarely does he conclude an argument with gar.

OK, I will agree with you. No problem. Here is what you said.
Furthermore,
"gar indicates a further explanation of the material that Paul has written before, most notably verses 4-7."
--Sounds like a conclusion to me, but who am I to argue.

You are ignoring that faith and grace are inextricably linked. Also, you are ignoring that grace has the definite article. This makes the answer to the question "How is one saved?" grace.

No, you are only answering half the question.
How is one saved?
1. By grace.
2. Through faith.
--Article or no article, the word of God cannot be ignored. There are two aspects here to salvation. And here is what they are:
1. We are saved by grace--God's grace--the grace that God provided for us on the cross of Calvary when Christ shed his blood to make an atonement for our sin. There is no other way. He paid the price. Salvation is totally of the grace of God.
2. Through faith. Salvation is the gift of God to be accepted through faith. If it is not accepted as the free gift of God through faith, then it is resisted, and one is eternally lost. This of course refutes irresistable grace as well. Man does have a free will--the will to choose Christ and the will to reject him. If he didn't he would not be made in the image of God, he would be nothing more than an animal--like the evolutionist would have us to believe. What does an animal live for? s*x, food, and sleep. He doesn't have to think about anything. But God gave man intelligence, a will to reason and choose. Man chose to eat of the fruit of the tree of good and evil. God did not force him to do so. It was his own free will. Salvation is by grace through faith.

Further, how can an heart, such as all of mankind, that desires "only evil continually" produce faith unless God does a work?

And how does a thief search out a policeman?
He doesn't.
But let's not eliminate the work of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit working through the Word of God draws one to Christ. This is what the Bible teaches. It does not teach that God gives him faith to believe. You cannot find that concept in the Bible.

No good Calvinist denies that one needs faith and one needs to exercise said faith. The question, as you know, is this: Since salvation is all of God and faith is required for salvation, how can God not provide faith as well?

Because man is not a robot. God gave man the choice. He did not force him to believe. In order to be regenerated he must have faith, and not from God. He must decide whether or not Christ is for him. God is not going to force regeneration on anyone. Salvation is through faith. That is the teaching of Eph.2:8.

Especially because of Paul's entire argument in Ephesians 2, it must be seen that grace and faith are two sides of the same coin--two parts of the same gift. This is emphasized by Paul's use of δωρον at the end of v. 8. That kind of "gift" is only by grace.

You are confused. Faith and repentance are two sides of one coin.
In salvation grace is what God provides and faith is what man provides.
Salvation is all of God. However man must by faith accept it. Faith is not a work of man. There are no works involved, as the COC would claim.

No, there isn't a break. "Gar" doesn't cause breaks, "gar" links.

Whether it is linked or has a break the end result is the same.

Yes, "The gift of God" is a dependent clause with the subject being "Gift." δωρον (gift) comes last in the sentence showing that what Paul's emphasis is--the gift of salvation (not the reward of salvation).

You are reading into the passage that which is not there.
It reads this way: "the gift of God." What is the gift of God." The gift of God is salvation." The gift of God is "eternal life" (Rom.6:23). The gift of God is not faith, at least not for an unbeliever.

 

[OldRegular]

So in other words, knowing the English language in which our Bible is translated isn't good enough. We have to know Greek and know that "it" wasn't in the Greek, and understand participles and must know whether the word was masculine or feminine, past or present tense and so on and so on and so on........................

I think I'll just toss by English Bibles in the trash. I am unable to understand them.

Amy.G

I know that you are pulling our leg, so to speak, by the above statement. I don't understand Greek. In fact I have difficulty understanding anything that is explained through Greek for the reason that there are grammatical terms in Greek that are not in or different from English.

That being said I believe that the good English translations are perfectly trustworthy in presenting God's Word to us. I know that you and I differ on the matter of the gift of grace and that is okay. But don't worry about the English Bibles. They are trustworthy.

 

[OldRegular]

Amy.G

The next to last sentence above should have read: I know that you and I differ on the matter of the gift of faith and that is okay.

 

[Winman]

Calvinists and Doctrines of Gracers can claim that faith is a gift from God, but there are many scriptures that prove otherwise. The entire Old Testament proves this false, as believers (except for a few) did not receive the Holy Spirit until the day of Pentacost. Yet they were able to believe.

John 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

Here the scriptures show that believers had not yet received the Holy Spirit or Ghost. Therefore, their faith was not given them through regeneration.

John 20:19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
20 And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord.
21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

Here was Jesus's disciples. They were believers, yet they had not yet received the Holy Ghost. Why would Jesus need to breathe on them and tell them to receive the Holy Ghost if they had already been regenerated by the Holy Spirit?

Acts 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Here Jesus speaks to his disciples just before Pentacost. They had not received the Holy Ghost, yet they were all believers. And Jesus said they would receive power after that the Holy Ghost was come upon them, which shows their faith was not caused by the regeneration of the Holy Spirit.

I could show many other examples. The fact is, the scriptures show that men could believe before they received the Holy Spirit.

Acts 19:1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

Paul must have been ignorant of the doctrines of Calvinism and the Doctrines of Grace, because he asked these disciples if they had received the Holy Ghost SINCE they believed, which proves you must first believe before you can receive the Holy Spirit.

Calvinists and Doctrines of Gracers have not one verse in all of scripture to prove that faith is given through the regeneration of the Holy Spirit, yet there are numerous scriptures that contradict and disprove this false doctrine.

 

[OldRegular]

Calvinists and Doctrines of Gracers can claim that faith is a gift from God, but there are many scriptures that prove otherwise. The entire Old Testament proves this false, as believers (except for a few) did not receive the Holy Spirit until the day of Pentacost. Yet they were able to believe.

The above sounds like you are confused about the gift of faith and the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Winman,
You cherry pick Scripture and take it out of context in an attempt to prove your point. I can show you a verse of Scripture that indicates one can receive the Holy Spirit without belief:

Acts 2:37-38
37. Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38. Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Do you see the word believe in the above Scripture. Yet Peter says they will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. In fact if you read all of Acts 2 you will not find the words believe, belief, or faith yet we are told that God added 3000 souls to the Church that day.

 

[Winman]

The above sounds like you are confused about the gift of faith and the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Winman,
You cherry pick Scripture and take it out of context in an attempt to prove your point. I can show you a verse of Scripture that indicates one can receive the Holy Spirit without belief:

Acts 2:37-38
37. Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38. Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Do you see the word believe in the above Scripture. Yet Peter says they will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. In fact if you read all of Acts 2 you will not find the words believe, belief, or faith yet we are told that God added 3000 souls to the Church that day.

Peter often used the word repent. But he is speaking of belief. Jesus did the same.

Luke 13:1 There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices.
2 And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?
3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?
5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Here, these persons believed that because certain men had been killed by Pilate, and eighteen were killed when a tower fell on them, that these persons must have been terrible sinners and God was punishing them.

But Jesus asks them in both cases if they believed these persons were worse sinners than others. He tells them they need to repent, that is, to turn from this false belief and realize that they too were sinners in danger of perishing. So, while he does not use the word belief in this passage, he is directly speaking of the beliefs they held.

And that is what Peter was doing in Acts chapter 2. He had just explained to them that Jesus was the promised Christ the Jews had waited for. That is not what the majority of Jews believed. They had been convinced by the chief priests that Jesus was a blasphemer.

Mark 15: 9 But Pilate answered them, saying, Will ye that I release unto you the King of the Jews?
10 For he knew that the chief priests had delivered him for envy.
11 But the chief priests moved the people, that he should rather release Barabbas unto them.
12 And Pilate answered and said again unto them, What will ye then that I shall do unto him whom ye call the King of the Jews?
13 And they cried out again, Crucify him.
14 Then Pilate said unto them, Why, what evil hath he done? And they cried out the more exceedingly, Crucify him.

The people had listened to the chief priests. They believed he was a blasphemer. But Peter preaches and shows them that Jesus was the Christ.

Acts 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:
26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.
29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

This was what these Jews needed to repent of. They had believed Jesus a blasphemer. But Peter proves to them from the scriptures that Jesus was the promised Christ. And these men were deeply convicted by Peter's preaching and knew they were guilty of killing the very Messiah they had waited for.

Acts 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

And this is when Peter told them to repent. They must turn from unbelief in Jesus to belief. They needed to trust in Jesus and be be baptized in his name for the remission of sins.

Acts:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

And notice that they could not receive the Holy Ghost until after they repented and trusted in Christ.

This is just one more proof that your doctrine is error. Peter here shows that you receive the Holy Spirit after you believe.

You need to quit listening to biased men who write commentaries. Of course a Calvinist will twist and wrest the scriptures to support their doctrine. A Catholic who writes a commentary will do the same, as will a Jehovah's Witness.

No, you need to get away from the writings of men and simply trust what the scriptures say.

2 Pet 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

Peter warned of men who would wrest the scriptures to their own destruction.

2 Tim 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

Here Paul warns of people who will not endure sound doctrine. He says they will heap to themselves teachers. This means they will purposely seek out those who teach them what they want to believe.

And this is the problem I see with Calvinists. Every time you present scripture that clearly contradicts their doctrine, they go to their commentaries. And then they will post some passage where that writer twists the scriptures to fit their belief.

If all you do is read Calvinist commentaries, then of course you will believe your doctrine sound, because they will all agree. That does not mean they are teaching the truth. You could read commentaries written by Catholics. They will differ on many points from your Calvinist commentaries, but they will agree with each other.

Why don't you just believe what God's word says and shows? I have clearly shown you from scripture that people believed before the Holy Spirit was given. I have shown you several examples. Don't go by me, go by what the scriptures say. Don't listen to any man. Listen to the scriptures.

 

[OldRegular]

Peter often used the word repent. But he is speaking of belief. Jesus did the same.

Winman

You are doing exactly what you fault others for doing. If God wanted Peter to use the word belief then Peter would have used it. So who gives you the authority to change God's revelation?

 

[Winman]

Repent means to turn or change one's mind. Peter had just preached to these men and convinced them from scripture that Jesus was the Christ. He quoted Old Testament scripture that these Jews knew to convince them Jesus was the Christ.

Do you really believe they would have participated and condoned Jesus's crucifixion if they had already believed him to be the promised Christ?

So, Peter is exhorting them to change their opinion about Jesus. The chief priests had convinced the people that Jesus was a blasphemer, and convinced the Romans that he was trying to start a rebellion.

Matt 26:63 But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God.
64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
65 Then the high priest rent his clothes, saying, He hath spoken blasphemy; what further need have we of witnesses? behold, now ye have heard his blasphemy.
66 What think ye? They answered and said, He is guilty of death.

Matt 27:11 And Jesus stood before the governor: and the governor asked him, saying, Art thou the King of the Jews? And Jesus said unto him, Thou sayest.
12 And when he was accused of the chief priests and elders, he answered nothing.
13 Then said Pilate unto him, Hearest thou not how many things they witness against thee?

You know, when you read the scriptures, you have to put yourself there, in that situation, and try to understand what was going on at that time. All these Jews who Peter preached to knew of Jesus, and knew of his crucifixion.

Acts 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

These Jews knew about Jesus, and they knew why he was crucified. It was the people who shouted "Crucify him! Crucify him!" when Pilate attempted to release Jesus. There were no doubt in Peter's audience men who were present and had shouted these very words.

They would not have shouted for Jesus's crucifixion if they had believed him the Christ. No, they believed and trusted the chief priests who stirred up the people and taught that he was a blasphemer.

So, you have to understand the situation. And Peter convinced these men from scripture that Jesus was the Christ. This is why they were deeply convicted and realized the great peril they were in. Imagine if you just learned you had killed the Son of God! I don't know about you, but I think that would be a very fearful thing to learn.

And you have to realize they were all Jews. They knew the scriptures, they believed in the coming Christ. This is why Peter goes to the Old Testament scriptures when he preached to them.

Acts 2:25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:
26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.

These Jews knew these scriptures. Peter was quoting Psalms 16. They probably knew the scriptures far better than any scholars alive today.

So, you have to think about these things and consider what these people knew. Then you can better understand the passage.

The word repent has to be understood in the context it is used. It does not always apply to belief. Sometimes it means to turn from a sin as in the case of Simon in Acts chapter 8.

But in many cases it applies to belief, as when John the Baptist told the Pharisees and Sadducees to repent.

Matt 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

Here John the Baptist tells these Pharisees and Sadducees to repent. But then he explains exactly what they must repent of. They must turn from the belief that a man was saved simply because he was a physical descendent of Abraham. Many Jews believed they were saved simply because they were Jews. They believed themselves the chosen, the elect of God. But John shows them this will not save them, and they need to turn from this false belief.

And by the way, here John the Baptist disproves Total Depravity, he calls these Pharisees and Sadducees vipers which proves they were unregenerate, but confirms they were fleeing God's wrath to come, which shows they both understood the scriptures, and they were seeking salvation.

So, in this passage, repentance is speaking of faith or belief. John is speaking directly of what these men were trusting for salvation.

But you have to always understand the word repent in the context it is used.

 

[DHK]

Winman

You are doing exactly what you fault others for doing. If God wanted Peter to use the word belief then Peter would have used it. So who gives you the authority to change God's revelation?

He's not changing the Word at all. He is pointing out a timeless truth. One cannot believe (Biblically) without repenting. They are the two sides of one coin. If you claim you can then you are like the demons who also believe. Yes, they believe without repentance as James demonstrates. Belief without repentance shows a life without works. That was the point of the second chapter of James.
Otherwise if repentance is not tied into faith, then what kind of faith is It?

 

[OldRegular]

He's not changing the Word at all. He is pointing out a timeless truth. One cannot believe (Biblically) without repenting. They are the two sides of one coin. If you claim you can then you are like the demons who also believe. Yes, they believe without repentance as James demonstrates. Belief without repentance shows a life without works. That was the point of the second chapter of James.
Otherwise if repentance is not tied into faith, then what kind of faith is It?

DHK

You are doing the same thing to my words that Winman is doing to Acts 2, reading something into them that I did not say. And like Winman you manage to very cleverly question my salvation. Frankly you should be removed as a moderator.

Now read it again DHK!

Originally Posted by OldRegular
The above sounds like you are confused about the gift of faith and the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Winman,
You cherry pick Scripture and take it out of context in an attempt to prove your point. I can show you a verse of Scripture that indicates one can receive the Holy Spirit without belief:

Acts 2:37-38
37. Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38. Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Do you see the word believe in the above Scripture. Yet Peter says they will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. In fact if you read all of Acts 2 you will not find the words believe, belief, or faith yet we are told that God added 3000 souls to the Church that day.

Where do I say that repentance is not required for salvation? Then apologize for questioning my salvation!

You and Winman have been falsely whining for months that those of us who believe in the Sovereign Grace of God in Salvation do not believe that faith is required for Salvation when we insist over and over that it is. Now you are falsely trying to say that I do not believe that repentance is required.

I have posted the following aspects of Salvation on this Forum a number of times. Please read them and then quit falsely accusing me just because you are unable to [or choose not to] comprehend the doctrine of the Sovereign Grace of God in Salvation.

Salvation, A Multifaceted Gem

Salvation, the blessing of grace, is that work of the Triune God by which He eternally redeems and reconciles to Himself those chosen in Jesus Christ before the foundation of the world [Ephesians 1:4], freeing them from bondage to sin and His holy wrath. That salvation is purchased by the blood of the Incarnate Son [Romans 5: 9; Hebrews 9: 14; 1 Peter 1: 18; 1 John 1: 7; Revelation 1: 5; Revelation 7: 14], the blood of the everlasting covenant [Matthew 26: 28; Hebrews 13: 20], and is made effective in the life of the elect by the Holy Spirit through union with Jesus Christ. Salvation from beginning to end is entirely by the Sovereign Grace of the Triune God.

Salvation is a once for all time occurrence in the life of the elect. However, as we see explicitly in Romans 8:28-30, and throughout Scripture, there are a number of events that are associated with salvation. In some of these man takes an active roll but in most of them he is entirely passive. If we consider salvation, this blessing of grace, as a multifaceted gem, we may better appreciate both the gift of salvation and the work of God, in particular God the Holy Spirit, in the salvation of those whom God the Father, before the foundation of the world, has chosen in Jesus Christ, God the Son.


1. Regeneration

The initial event in salvation, insofar as man is involved, is regeneration, the theological term synonymous with ‘rebirth’ or ‘being born again’. Regeneration is solely the work of God the Holy Spirit whereby those who are spiritually dead in trespass and sin are made spiritual alive and are brought into union with Jesus Christ [Ephesians 2:1-9].


2. Union with Jesus Christ

Union with Jesus Christ is an integral part, a condition, of God’s electing grace, is simultaneous with regeneration, and is solely the work of God the Holy Spirit.


3. Effectual Calling

Insofar as man himself is aware, the initial event in salvation is the effectual calling of the Holy Spirit. It is an observable fact that not all who hear the Gospel accept it and come to salvation. The regenerate do, the unregenerate do not.


4. Conversion

Conversion is the result of conscious act of a regenerate person in which he responds to the effectual call and turns to God in faith and repentance. Conversion is in reality an acknowledgment that one has experienced regeneration.


4a. Saving Faith

Saving faith is an essential aspect of conversion and, though exercised by man, is itself a gift of God [Ephesians 2:8,9] The prophet Habakkuk who writes [2: 4b]: the just shall live by his faith, is echoed by the Apostle Paul in that great faith chapter of the New Testament, Hebrews 11, which clearly demonstrates that faith is, in fact, a way of life.


4b. Repentance

Like faith repentance is also an essential aspect of conversion. However, the repentance associated with conversion must be proceeded by faith, that is, a person cannot truly repent of his sins against God until he believes that God is and that he has sinned against God.


5. Pardon

A righteous God cannot overlook sin for the wages of sin is death [Romans 6.23]. Man is not a sinner because he sins but man sins because he is a sinner. As such he is subject to the wrath of God [Romans 5:12, Romans 1:18]. All who exercise God given repentance obtain forgiveness through Jesus Christ. Forgiveness or pardon implies deliverance from the penalty of sin.


6. Justification

Justification is a judicial act whereby the unjust sinner is declared righteous in the sight of a just and holy God. John Dagg in his Manuel of Theology [page 265] notes that justification is a higher blessing of grace than pardon. Pardon frees from the penalty that follows sin, justification frees us from the guilt of sin. Justification is by faith alone [Romans 5:1] and that faith itself is the gift of God [Ephesians 2:8,9].


7. Adoption

God adopts as sons all who believe in Jesus Christ [Galatians 3:26, 1 John 3:1, Romans 8:16,17]. Although we are called the sons of God and joint heirs with Jesus Christ this does not mean that we occupy the same position relative to God the Father as Jesus Christ [John 10:30-33, Colossians 2:9, Philippians 2:5-10]. When God the Son took upon Himself the form of man He laid aside His Glory but not His Deity. Though we are called the sons of God by adoption we will never be divine.


8. Sanctification

The Holy Spirit continues to sanctify those whom He has regenerated and finally prepares them fully for the service and enjoyment of life in the presence of God.


9. Perseverance or Security of the True Believer

The doctrine of the ‘Perseverance of the Saints’ or the ‘Security of the True Believer’ is one that is cherished by most Baptists. The statement from the 1677 [or 1689] Baptist Confession of Faith [Lumpkin, Baptist Confessions of Faith, page 272] expresses this doctrine in the following excerpt:

Those whom God hath accepted in the Beloved, effectually called and sanctified by His Spirit, and given the precious faith of His elect unto, can neither totally nor finally fall from the state of grace; but shall certainly persevere therein to the end and be eternally saved, seeing the gifts and calling of God are without repentance, (whence He still begets and nourishish them in Faith, Repentance, Love, Joy, Hope, and all the graces of the Spirit unto immortality).


10. Assurance of Salvation

If we do not believe that True Believer’s are kept by the power of God and will persevere to the end it is doubtful that we can ever have any assurance of our salvation. Therefore, every passage of Scripture that demonstrates the security of the believer should provide the believer assurance of that security. The first basis for assurance is the testimony of the Word of God. The second basis for assurance of salvation is subjective. The Apostle John tells us [1 John 5:10]: He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself. That witness is the indwelling Holy Spirit


11. Glorification

God will bring to glory those He has saved through the sacrifice of His Son. Glorification is the final facet on the gem of salvation. Redemption is complete, the sin struggle is over. We who are heirs and joint heirs with Jesus Christ [Romans 8:17] will be like Him for we will see Him as He is [1 John 3:2].


The above are not necessarily in chronological order with the exception of #s 1 & 11.

 

[Winman]

You and Winman have been falsely whining for months that those of us who believe in the Sovereign Grace of God in Salvation do not believe that faith is required for Salvation when we insist over and over that it is. Now you are falsely trying to say that I do not believe that repentance is required.

I have never said that you do not believe faith is required in salvation. My disagreement with you is over Total Depravity or Inability. I believe that unsaved man has the ability to believe, you do not.

I showed you numerous scriptures today that shows a man must first believe before receiving the Holy Spirit, therefore showing unregenerate man has the ability to believe.

John 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

This verse directly speaks of those who were believing, but had not yet received the Holy Spirit. They could not, because the Holy Spirit was not yet given.

Now, how could they be regenerated to believe by the Holy Ghost if the Holy Ghost was not yet given? They can't.

And the scriptures confirm many believers before the Holy Spirit was given on the Day of Pentacost.

John 2:11 This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him.

Now, I do not say and have never said anyone believes without the influence of God. His disciples saw his miracles and believed on him. This is not the same as saying the Holy Spirit regenerated them.

John 4:39 And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did.

These Samaritans believed on Jesus because of the testimony or sayings of the Samaritan woman who met Jesus at the well. The reason or source for their belief is clearly stated in scripture. It does not say they were regenerated by the Holy Spirit to believe, it says because of the "saying of the woman". They could not have been regenerated to believe by the Holy Spirit, because the Holy Spirit was not given until Jesus was glorified later.

But I have never said you do not believe a person has to have faith to be saved. My difference with you is that I believe the unsaved person has the ability to believe.

We will disagree forever, but the scriptures show you cannot receive the Holy Spirit unless you believe, therefore the faith in salvation cannot be caused by the regeneration of the Holy Spirit. That comes after faith.

Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Say what you will, you do not have even one single verse to support your doctrine, I have dozens which I can and have shown many times. But you prefer to believe the writings of men, just like the ones you just submitted in your last post. I prefer to believe God's word, the scriptures.

 

[OldRegular]

I have never said that you do not believe faith is required in salvation. My disagreement with you is over Total Depravity or Inability. I believe that unsaved man has the ability to believe, you do not.

Winman

You state:

I believe that unsaved man has the ability to believe.

Below are three slightly different doctrines on the ability of man regarding his own salvation. Now which of these three define your concept of your role in your own Salvation Winman?

1. Pelagianism is that teaching, originating in the late fourth century, which stresses man's ability to take the initial steps toward salvation by his own efforts, apart from special grace.

http://mb-soft.com/believe/txc/pelagian.htm

2. semi-Pelagianism believes that Divine grace is indispensable for salvation, but it does not necessarily need to precede a free human choice, because, despite the weakness of human volition, the will takes the initiative toward God. In other words, divine grace and human free will must work together in salvation.

http://mb-soft.com/believe/txc/semipela.htm

3. Arminianism declares that although human nature was seriously affected by the fall, man has not been left in a state of total spiritual helplessness. God graciously enables every sinner to repent and believe but does not interfere with man’s freedom. Each sinner possesses a free will, and his eternal destiny depends on how he uses it. Man’s freedom consists in his ability to choose good over evil in spiritual matters; his will is not enslaved to his sinful nature.

http://www.bible-researcher.com/arminianism.html


Again I ask: Which of the above three define your concept of your role in your own Salvation Winman?

 

[DHK]

DHK

You are doing the same thing to my words that Winman is doing to Acts 2, reading something into them that I did not say. And like Winman you manage to very cleverly question my salvation. Frankly you should be removed as a moderator.

Now read it again DHK!


1. Regeneration

The initial event in salvation, insofar as man is involved, is regeneration, the theological term synonymous with ‘rebirth’ or ‘being born again’. Regeneration is solely the work of God the Holy Spirit whereby those who are spiritually dead in trespass and sin are made spiritual alive and are brought into union with Jesus Christ [Ephesians 2:1-9].

Contrary to your beliefs, which I believe are totally against Biblical teaching, regeneration and salvation are one and the same thing. If you believe that regeneration can take place without faith, then I have nothing to apologize for. If you believe that regeneration can take place without repentance then I have nothing to apologize for. And that is indeed what you believe. That is what I have stated. This concept of yours goes right against the entire grain of Scripture.

Jesus said to Nicodemus: You must be born again. He said it three times. How can a man be born again? If you know how to expound these Scriptures properly you will find that it is through faith in the Scriptures, and the working of the Holy Spirit. There is no other way. I am sorry if you have a wrong concept of Scripture; I can't do anything about that. However, I never questioned your salvation.

 

[Winman]

Winman

You state:

Below are three slightly different doctrines on the ability of man regarding his own salvation. Now which of these three define your concept of your role in your own Salvation Winman?

1. Pelagianism is that teaching, originating in the late fourth century, which stresses man's ability to take the initial steps toward salvation by his own efforts, apart from special grace.

http://mb-soft.com/believe/txc/pelagian.htm

2. semi-Pelagianism believes that Divine grace is indispensable for salvation, but it does not necessarily need to precede a free human choice, because, despite the weakness of human volition, the will takes the initiative toward God. In other words, divine grace and human free will must work together in salvation.

http://mb-soft.com/believe/txc/semipela.htm

3. Arminianism declares that although human nature was seriously affected by the fall, man has not been left in a state of total spiritual helplessness. God graciously enables every sinner to repent and believe but does not interfere with man’s freedom. Each sinner possesses a free will, and his eternal destiny depends on how he uses it. Man’s freedom consists in his ability to choose good over evil in spiritual matters; his will is not enslaved to his sinful nature.

http://www.bible-researcher.com/arminianism.html


Again I ask: Which of the above three define your concept of your role in your own Salvation Winman?

Old Regular, I am not familiar with any of these teachings, so no way would I commit to one. I am a Bible believer. I simply read the scriptures and ask God to help me understand.

And this is where I differ with many on this board. I really do not see the reason to depend on other men's understanding of scripture. The scriptures themselves say the Holy Spirit will teach us what the scriptures are truly saying.

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

This is a promise from Jesus Christ, you either believe it or you don't. Jesus said the Holy Spirit would teach us all things. We do not need other men to tell us what the scriptures say.

Does that mean that we simply believe the first impression we get from a passage of scripture? No. We are told to study the scriptures and rightly divide the word. When we do not understand scripture we should go to God in prayer and ask for wisdom and understanding.

James 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.

Another promise from God. If we do not understand the scriptures, we are to ask for wisdom doubting nothing. And God has promised to give us wisdom.

Prov 2:1 My son, if thou wilt receive my words, and hide my commandments with thee;
2 So that thou incline thine ear unto wisdom, and apply thine heart to understanding;
3 Yea, if thou criest after knowledge, and liftest up thy voice for understanding;
4 If thou seekest her as silver, and searchest for her as for hid treasures;
5 Then shalt thou understand the fear of the LORD, and find the knowledge of God.

We do not need the teachings of men to understand the scriptures. We need to cry to God for knowledge and understanding, and he has promised to answer those who do so sincerely.

This is why I do not understand why you rely on the writings of others so much. I have noticed this from quite a few Calvinists. Many times they do not give a personal answer, they copy and paste from some commentary. Why? Aren't you able to defend your own positions? You don't see me quoting commentaries. I show you scriptures and tell you how I understand them. If you think me in error, then show me my error. I am open to that. But I am not going to listen to some "canned" commentary from a Calvinist writer, I already know what they will say. You can find commentaries from Mormons, does that mean they are true?

You posted a sermon by Spurgeon a week or so ago. I posted part of that sermon and showed where I thought Spurgeon was in error. He said that Paul
did not bother to explain that the Holy Spirit regenerates a man to have faith in Romans 10:17, so he would not bother either. Now that is pure baloney, and I would never personally listen to a preacher who says things like that. I want to see scripture that supports your position. He said Paul showed it elsewhere, but did not give even one verse for reference. That is baloney too, the truth is there is not one verse in the whole Bible that says this.

I do not believe man fell in the garden. Man already had the ability to sin. The fact that they did sin proves this. So man was not created in absolute perfection as God is. God cannot sin.

James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

God cannot be tempted with evil, Adam and Eve could and were. So we were not created without the ability to sin. If so, they could not have sinned. That is pure logic.

Man did not lose the ability to believe, and man did not lose the ability to exercise his free will. That is plainly shown with Cain.

Gen 4:6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

Cain had the ability to do good and offer an acceptable sacrifice, the LORD himself said so. He could also choose to do not well. There is man's free will and choice shown right there from the mouth of God himself. You don't need a commentary to understand this, this is very straightforward scripture and quite easy to understand.

That said, man cannot save himself without God first teaching him how to be saved, and what to believe. Without the scriptures man would not know of the true God or Jesus Christ. Without the scriptures we would be absolutely helpless to be saved.

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Calvinist's love this verse, but they take it out of the context of the passage and misrepresent it. Just a few verses later Jesus shows how God draws a man.

John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

No one comes to God unless first God goes to him and teaches him. God uses the scriptures to teach and draw men.

So, I believe man never lost the ability to believe God's word. I have shown you quite a few scriptures that shows man believed before the Holy Spirit was given. But man needs to be taught what to believe. This is why Jesus commanded us to go out and teach all men.

Matt 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Notice Jesus mentions teaching twice here. Men can believe anything, he must be taught the gospel to know of Jesus before he believe and trust on him. Without the scriptures, or someone to preach the gospel, men cannot be saved.

Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Paul does not mention the regeneration of the Holy Spirit here, he asks how a man can possibly believe on Christ if he has never heard of Christ. Faith comes by hearing the word of God.


17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

 

[OldRegular]

Contrary to your beliefs, which I believe are totally against Biblical teaching, regeneration and salvation are one and the same thing. If you believe that regeneration can take place without faith, then I have nothing to apologize for. If you believe that regeneration can take place without repentance then I have nothing to apologize for. And that is indeed what you believe. That is what I have stated. This concept of yours goes right against the entire grain of Scripture.

Jesus said to Nicodemus: You must be born again. He said it three times. How can a man be born again? If you know how to expound these Scriptures properly you will find that it is through faith in the Scriptures, and the working of the Holy Spirit. There is no other way. I am sorry if you have a wrong concept of Scripture; I can't do anything about that. However, I never questioned your salvation.

You show me where Jesus Christ declared that faith was a prerequisite to the New Birth and I will agree with you. But you can't. In case your version does not have the appropriate Scripture I will post them for you.

John 3:3-8, KJV
3. Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?
5. Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

I will even throw in a couple of additional versions.

John 3:3-8, NASB
3. Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
4. Nicodemus *said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born, can he?”
5. Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6. “That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7. “Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’
8. “The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”


John 3:3-8, NKJV
3. Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
4,.Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”
5. Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
6. “That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7. “Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’
8. “The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

NOW HAVE AT IT DHK!:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

 

[DHK]

OR, A four year old can copy and paste. We have other posters do such elementary, if not childish things. Exposition of the passage to show what it teaches is quite different. Exposition does indeed show that faith is required. Again, I am sorry for you that you don't have any understanding of this passage of Scripture. And even more so now that you make it a laughing matter.

 

[OldRegular]

DHK

Below are three slightly different doctrines on the ability of man regarding his own salvation that I posed to Winman. Now which of these three define your concept of your role in your own Salvation?

1. Pelagianism is that teaching, originating in the late fourth century, which stresses man's ability to take the initial steps toward salvation by his own efforts, apart from special grace.

http://mb-soft.com/believe/txc/pelagian.htm

2. semi-Pelagianism believes that Divine grace is indispensable for salvation, but it does not necessarily need to precede a free human choice, because, despite the weakness of human volition, the will takes the initiative toward God. In other words, divine grace and human free will must work together in salvation.

http://mb-soft.com/believe/txc/semipela.htm

3. Arminianism declares that although human nature was seriously affected by the fall, man has not been left in a state of total spiritual helplessness. God graciously enables every sinner to repent and believe but does not interfere with man’s freedom. Each sinner possesses a free will, and his eternal destiny depends on how he uses it. Man’s freedom consists in his ability to choose good over evil in spiritual matters; his will is not enslaved to his sinful nature.

http://www.bible-researcher.com/arminianism.html


Again I ask: Which of the above three define your concept of your role in your own Salvation DHK?

Frankly there doesn't seem to be too much difference in this brief statement of each. They each state that man is ultimately sovereign in his own salvation. That is what you and Winman preach.