OldRegular
Well-Known Member
What does OT law have to do with being born a slave to sin? Nothing! But THE FALL did!
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Where does believing faith come from part 4
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What does OT law have to do with being born a slave to sin? Nothing! But THE FALL did!
Webdog said:
Well, I'm going to depart from the majority once again, I do not believe man was created morally perfect. Yes, man was sinless in the beginning, but man had the capacity to sin from the beginning as well. This is shown by the fact that God commanded Adam and Eve not to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, and proven by the fact that they did indeed disobey and sin. So, while we were created in God's likeness, we were not created absolutely perfect, else we would be God.
And what did happen when Adam and Eve sinned? They were made aware of both good and evil. The scriptures say their eyes were opened and they saw they were naked. So, it seems to me that they gained self-awareness and self-consciousness. Before, they had been like little children who can run around naked and are completely unaware of their nakedness and any shame.
Gen 3:7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.
8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.
For the first time ever, they felt both shame and fear. They felt guilt, and hid from the LORD when they heard his voice.
But they were able to both hear and understand God's word when he called them. I think the word "called" in Gen 3:9 is significant.
Gen 3:9 And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?
10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.
11 And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?
12 And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.
13 And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.
So, I don't believe man's moral nature necessarily changed. Yes, you are correct, little children are born with a sinful nature, it is absolutely normal for a child to be selfish. They will take every cookie on the plate and not share with their siblings unless instructed to share. But little children are not aware of sin until they reach a certain maturity and are taught the difference between right and wrong.
And this is how I see Adam and Eve. They may actually have committed some selfish or even sinful acts unknowingly before they ate of the forbidden fruit, we don't know. But until this time they had no self-awareness or self-consciousness.
But nowhere do the scriptures say that man lost all ability to believe God, or to do some good. I have already posted before, Cain could have given an acceptable sacrifice if he chose to do so. The Lord himself confirms he had the ability to do so.
Gen 4:6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
And notice in verse 7 that the LORD says Cain shall rule over sin, not the other way around as some teach.
And when the Bible says we are a servant to sin, that does not mean we are absolutely enslaved to it and can do no good, just as when we become a servant of Christ, this does not mean we cannot disobey and do wrong. In fact, the scriptures command a servant to be obedient, which shows a servant can be disobedient to their master.
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
This verse shows man has control over his actions. A man can yield himself to sin, or to righteousness.
So, this idea that unsaved man must sin 100% of the time is not scriptural whatsoever. Cain could have obeyed God and given an acceptable sacrifice, the Lord himself said so.
Well, I'm going to depart from the majority once again, I do not believe man was created morally perfect. Yes, man was sinless in the beginning, but man had the capacity to sin from the beginning as well. This is shown by the fact that God commanded Adam and Eve not to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, and proven by the fact that they did indeed disobey and sin. So, while we were created in God's likeness, we were not created absolutely perfect, else we would be God.
And what did happen when Adam and Eve sinned? They were made aware of both good and evil. The scriptures say their eyes were opened and they saw they were naked. So, it seems to me that they gained self-awareness and self-consciousness. Before, they had been like little children who can run around naked and are completely unaware of their nakedness and any shame.
Gen 3:7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.
8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.
For the first time ever, they felt both shame and fear. They felt guilt, and hid from the LORD when they heard his voice.
But they were able to both hear and understand God's word when he called them. I think the word "called" in Gen 3:9 is significant.
Gen 3:9 And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?
10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.
11 And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?
12 And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.
13 And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.
So, I don't believe man's moral nature necessarily changed. Yes, you are correct, little children are born with a sinful nature, it is absolutely normal for a child to be selfish. They will take every cookie on the plate and not share with their siblings unless instructed to share. But little children are not aware of sin until they reach a certain maturity and are taught the difference between right and wrong.
And this is how I see Adam and Eve. They may actually have committed some selfish or even sinful acts unknowingly before they ate of the forbidden fruit, we don't know. But until this time they had no self-awareness or self-consciousness.
But nowhere do the scriptures say that man lost all ability to believe God, or to do some good. I have already posted before, Cain could have given an acceptable sacrifice if he chose to do so. The Lord himself confirms he had the ability to do so.
Gen 4:6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
And notice in verse 7 that the LORD says Cain shall rule over sin, not the other way around as some teach.
And when the Bible says we are a servant to sin, that does not mean we are absolutely enslaved to it and can do no good, just as when we become a servant of Christ, this does not mean we cannot disobey and do wrong. In fact, the scriptures command a servant to be obedient, which shows a servant can be disobedient to their master.
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
This verse shows man has control over his actions. A man can yield himself to sin, or to righteousness.
So, this idea that unsaved man must sin 100% of the time is not scriptural whatsoever. Cain could have obeyed God and given an acceptable sacrifice, the Lord himself said so.
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OldRegular
Well-Known Member
The idea that the unsaved man must sin 100% of the time is apparently a figment of your mind. I have never heard that before
Well he probably has. Let's put it in perspective.
Isaiah 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
All our righteousnesses are as filthy rags. What does this verse mean? It means that anything we try to do for God is useless, for salvation is not of works.
The Bible also says in the book of Proverbs: "Even the plowing of the wicked is an abomination." But to break up fallow ground and plant seed, and grow crops and harvest them that others may have food is not a wicked thing. It is good. But, like Cain, if it is done to be an acceptable sacrifice for God, or as a work of an unsaved man for God, God will not accept good works for salvation. Man cannot do anything that will please Him except to trust Him as Saviour.
That choice is made clear by the Lord Jesus Himself. There is but one work that man can do:
John 6:28-29 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them,
29 This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
The only work that man can do is to believe in Christ. Salvation is by faith; by man putting his own faith in Christ. That is the way to be regenerated/saved. That is the way that Christ himself put it. After that Christ will accept our good works.
Man can do good. Yes, it is possible. But they don't count for salvation.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
No, I don't believe it either. So apparently you and Winman were agreeing on this point?
The OT law touches on slavery, how one became a slave. It was voluntary.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
That was talking about physical slavery not spiritual slavery!
No. You are wrong. They did not sin until they ate the fruit. If they had sinned in any form before that -- it would have triggered the Fall. Any sin would have caused the Fall.
No one on the BB has said anything romotely like that. Can you please furnish a quote from any Calvinist in history who has said such a thing?
I have never said anything different. Salvation is by grace through faith as it says in Eph.2:8. I have always preached that message and never varied from it. The grace is God's grace shown to us through Christ on the cross.
The faith is that faith which we must put in that sacrifice in order to save us.
Thus salvation is by grace through faith and not of works. I am glad we agree. Now we need to get OR on board.
Onlybygrace
New Member
Winman said:
This account contradicts Calvinism in several points. First, we see this young rich ruler had a desire to be saved
This be not true my friend. To say that he had a desire to be saved is to infer that he was aware of the fact that he was heading for a lost eternity. The passage does not tell us that. Instead we are told that he asked:"what must I do to inherit eternal life." He was far more concerned about what he could gain by his own works and righteous actions than seeing himself as a sinner who needed to be forgiven or face hell. Jesus alludes to this by saying:" Why do you call me good, there is none good except God." He should have understood from this that he was a sinner but he was blinded by self-righteousness. That this man kept none of the commandments relating directly to God but only the ones relating to his fellow man. His God was money. This really has nothing to do with Calvinism.
Winman also said:
God does not hate the unsaved as Calvinism teaches.
Calvinism does not teach that God hates the unsaved. It does teach that God hates sin, which is what the bible teaches. Romans 9:13 says "Jacob have I loved but Esau have I hated" in reference to God's sovereign choice but we must be careful to not interpret God's hatred as man's sinful hatred or neglect to interpret the meaning of the term in context. The Bibe also teaches that God is jealous, yet His jealousy is righteous and justified unlike our sinful human jealousy. Jesus says that if anyone wants to follow Him they must hate their father and mother and yet He also teaches that we should honor our parents. Clearly the word hate used there is not used in the normal sense that we use it.
This account contradicts Calvinism in several points. First, we see this young rich ruler had a desire to be saved
This be not true my friend. To say that he had a desire to be saved is to infer that he was aware of the fact that he was heading for a lost eternity. The passage does not tell us that. Instead we are told that he asked:"what must I do to inherit eternal life." He was far more concerned about what he could gain by his own works and righteous actions than seeing himself as a sinner who needed to be forgiven or face hell. Jesus alludes to this by saying:" Why do you call me good, there is none good except God." He should have understood from this that he was a sinner but he was blinded by self-righteousness. That this man kept none of the commandments relating directly to God but only the ones relating to his fellow man. His God was money. This really has nothing to do with Calvinism.
Winman also said:
God does not hate the unsaved as Calvinism teaches.
Calvinism does not teach that God hates the unsaved. It does teach that God hates sin, which is what the bible teaches. Romans 9:13 says "Jacob have I loved but Esau have I hated" in reference to God's sovereign choice but we must be careful to not interpret God's hatred as man's sinful hatred or neglect to interpret the meaning of the term in context. The Bibe also teaches that God is jealous, yet His jealousy is righteous and justified unlike our sinful human jealousy. Jesus says that if anyone wants to follow Him they must hate their father and mother and yet He also teaches that we should honor our parents. Clearly the word hate used there is not used in the normal sense that we use it.
...yet you are the one comparing the two as being the same. Go figure
Well, when I said they may have sinned, what I meant is that they may have done acts that were later considered sin when the law came in. Without the law there is no transgression.
Rom 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
Adam and Eve had but one law that we know of. They were forbidden to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. So when they broke this law they sinned.
But it is clear both Adam and Eve had the ability to sin. The fact that they did sin proves this. So, they were not absolutely morally perfect as God is. God cannot sin. God is holy.
1 Sam 2:2 There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God.
James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
God cannot be tempted with evil, but Adam and Eve could and were. So man was not created as absolutely perfect as God is. Man had the ability to sin from the beginning. So there was no fall, this is a man-made invention.
And John Calvin himself said man was always 100% evil.
John Calvin himself taught that man is utterly devoid of goodness, that is, 100% evil. This is contradicted by scripture and the common experience of every person. Anyone who has seen a mother's love for her child can see this. A mother will give her life to save her child without one thought for herself. And she does not perform this for some ulterior motive.
As I have shown several times now, God himself confirms that Cain had the ability to offer an acceptable sacrifice if he so chose to do so. This disproves Total Depravity.
Gen 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
It is clear Cain had the ability to do either good or evil, the choice was his to make.
Jesus said a person can have an honest and good heart.
Luke 8:15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.
You cannot say these persons are regenerated, because when Jesus said this the Holy Spirit was not given until Jesus rose from the dead and was glorified later.
John 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
This verse disproves Calvinism, because it shows a person can believe without the Holy Spirit. In fact, the entire Old Testament proves Calvinism wrong, because only a few select people received the Holy Spirit in those times. It was only after Pentacost that the Holy Spirit was given to every believer.
John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
The vast majority of believers in the Old Testament did not have the Holy Spirit. But they were fully able to believe.
I personally believe when Jesus led captivity captive, that is, those OT saints who were held in paradise, that when he ascended he gave them the Holy Spirit just as the Holy Spirit was given to living believers at Pentacost.
Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
The doctrine of Total Depravity as Calvinist's define it is false and easily shown so by many scriptures.
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OldRegular
Well-Known Member
...yet you are the one comparing the two as being the same. Go figure
No! You go figure but stop rolling your eyes so you can see or perhaps get new specs. I said that as the result of THE FALL mankind did not have free will but was in bondage to sin. I have never compared physical bondage or slavery to spiritual bondage. You are simply mistaken.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Ephesians 2 doesn't teach that. Clearly you know nothing of grammar if that is what you think. What is the subject? Why do you say or affirm that a verse is teaching what it is not? Cults do that. I would expect a higher standard from you.
...yet there is no scripture to state what you do, that free will was taken away at the fall. At the fall man became a slave to sin because that is what they chose to do, it was in their nature to desire sin...the same way a slave became that way in biblical times.
False. Ephesians 2:8 actually disproves your doctrine.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
We do not receive faith through grace. That is what Calvinism teaches, but is exactly the opposite of what the scriptures teach. The scriptures say we receive grace through faith.
Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
Theses verses show we have access or entry into God's grace through faith.
You cannot please God unless you first have faith. God is not going to give grace to someone who does not please him.
Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
Notice that to please God is conditional. You must believe that he is, and you must believe that he is a rewarder of those who diligently seek him. The very definition of grace is "favor" or that you please God. You cannot obtain God's grace without first having faith. Calvinists teach that grace means unmerited favor, but Heb 11:6 shows that God's favor is conditional.
Again, the scriptures show that you obtain grace through faith, not the other way around as Calvinism or the Doctrines of Grace teach.
Rom 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
Calvinism turns Ephesians 2:8 completely around 180 degrees. If Calvinism were true, the scriptures would say
"For by faith are you saved through grace; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:"
This is what Calvinism teaches and is utterly false. You could not be in greater error if you tried.
No, the scriptures teach that you receive God's grace through faith. But if faith is a gift, then you are receiveing God's grace first.
Total error.
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OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Winman
I would not attempt to count the number of times that you have been told on this Forum that those of us who believe that God, not man, is Sovereign in Salvation [Called the Sovereign Doctrines of Grace by some and Calvinism by others.] consider faith is an essential part of Salvation. Yet you still seem confused. I don't know whether you are actually confused simply because that doesn't make sense. So I must assume that you are pretending to be confused for some reason that only you know.
Your confusion, however, as well as that of DHK, does not alter the fact that regeneration is an act of the Holy Spirit and precedes the Gift of Faith by the Holy Spirit.
I would not attempt to count the number of times that you have been told on this Forum that those of us who believe that God, not man, is Sovereign in Salvation [Called the Sovereign Doctrines of Grace by some and Calvinism by others.] consider faith is an essential part of Salvation. Yet you still seem confused. I don't know whether you are actually confused simply because that doesn't make sense. So I must assume that you are pretending to be confused for some reason that only you know.
Your confusion, however, as well as that of DHK, does not alter the fact that regeneration is an act of the Holy Spirit and precedes the Gift of Faith by the Holy Spirit.
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