Where does believing faith come from part 4

[DHK]

Hope this is not the 1st time but you are right webdog. However, the regenerate do receive the gift of Faith.

An impossibility. Why didn't God just make robots then? This teaching even goes against the nature of God, and the fact that man is made in God's own image. If man has no will to believe in His Creator in order to be regenerated, then he is not made in the image of the one who created him. He is just like one of the animals without any spirit at all. The fact that the spirit can be regenerated at all is proof that man is made in God's image. But God's image is also the ability to reason and to choose. He has given man the choice to enter into his family or to reject his family; the right to be adopted as his child; the right to refuse to be adopted into his family. The choice is ours to make. We are not robots and the choice cannot be forced upon us.

 

[OldRegular]

An impossibility. Why didn't God just make robots then? This teaching even goes against the nature of God, and the fact that man is made in God's own image. If man has no will to believe in His Creator in order to be regenerated, then he is not made in the image of the one who created him. He is just like one of the animals without any spirit at all. The fact that the spirit can be regenerated at all is proof that man is made in God's image. But God's image is also the ability to reason and to choose. He has given man the choice to enter into his family or to reject his family; the right to be adopted as his child; the right to refuse to be adopted into his family. The choice is ours to make. We are not robots and the choice cannot be forced upon us.

There was something called "THE FALL". If you read the first 3 chapters of Genesis then you will learn about it. Also you might look up Scripture and learn that man is incapable of GOOD by GOD's standard.

Psalm 14:2, 3
2. The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

GOD looked upon the children of men and said that there were none that did good. The Apostle Paul says it well in the following:

Romans 3:10-18
10. As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11. There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13. Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
14. Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
15. Their feet are swift to shed blood:
16. Destruction and misery are in their ways:
17. And the way of peace have they not known:
18. There is no fear of God before their eyes.

When Adam was created he was created upright or righteous and had the ability to choose freely. Sadly Adam chose evil. When Adam rebelled against GOD he and his progeny lost that God given ability of free choice. Mankind was in bondage to sin. Any choice he made was corrupted by GOD's standard since his nature was corrupt. That corrupt nature deluded him into thinking that he indeed had free will.

Now obviously sinful man is unable to accept, on his own, GOD's gracious offer of Salvation. Therefore, GOD must intervene as so eloquently discussed by the Apostle John in his Gospel and by the Apostle Paul in his many letters, particularly Romans and Ephesians. That intervention is called "regeneration" or the "new birth". Our Savior Jesus Christ uses the term "born again" in HIS discussion with Nicodemus. An unbiased reading of this discussion [John 3:3-8] shows that the "new birth" is the act of God alone with no action on the part of man. Similarly an unbiased reading of Ephesians 2:1-8 will show the same truth. Man who is spiritually dead is made spiritually alive, regenerated, through the direct action of the Holy Spirit with no action on the part of man.

The Apostle Paul writes as follows in Titus 3:3-8

3. For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.
4. But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5. Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6. Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
7. That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
8. This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

Now obviously faith on the part of unregenerate or unsaved man is a work of righteousness but Paul states that God "according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost". You see once again that no action is noted on the part of man and there cannot be for the simple reason that unregenerate man is incapable of performing a righteous act or act that meets the standard of GOD.

Now certainly you are going to raise the question of faith as does Paul in verse 8. I know of no one who believes in the Sovereign Grace of GOD in Salvation of HIS elect who does not insist that Faith is an essential part of salvation. I have noted the following a number of times on this Forum.

1. The initial event in salvation is regeneration, the theological term synonymous with ‘rebirth’ or ‘being born again’. Regeneration is solely the work of God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, whereby those who are spiritually dead in trespass and sin are made spiritual alive and are brought into union with Jesus Christ.

2. Conversion is the result of conscious act of a regenerate person in which he responds to the ‘effectual call’ and turns to God in faith and repentance. Conversion is in reality an acknowledgment that one has experienced regeneration.

It is important to realize that conversion is a personal transaction between God and man. Therefore, since no two people are alike we should not expect that they will have the same conversion experience. God saves people one at a time! Jesus Christ explains conversion in the following manner:

John 3:16, KJV
16. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

The Apostle Paul explains conversion simply as follows:

Romans 10:9, KJV
9. That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

 

[Winman]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Winman
Jesus is the Word of God. And we are saved by hearing the word of God.

Old Regular responded:

Really! Can you prove that?

Yes, although when I said we are saved by hearing the word of God, I should have been specific and said we are saved by both hearing and believeing the word of God.

Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

We receive the Holy Spirit by hearing and believeing God's word. This is not what Calvinism teaches, but it is what the scriptures teach.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Doesn't get any plainer than Ephesians 1:13. First you hear the gospel, then believe, and then only AFTER BELIEVING do you receive the Holy Spirit. This absolutely disproves the doctrines of Calvinism.

1 Pet 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

We are born again, that is regenerated, by the word of God. Calvinists cannot provide even one verse of scripture to support their doctrine that a man is regenerated first to believe, but non-Cals can provide many scriptures to support that unsaved man has the ability to hear and believe God's word, and in fact this is how a man is regenerated or born again.

Jam 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

Jesus said the words that he spoke were both spirit and life, but you must believe and receive his words to profit you.

John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Heb 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Here Paul shows that the gospel is what saves, but it only effectually works for those who believe it. Nowhere does it mention one word of being regenerated by the Holy Spirit to believe. Verse 3 shows that those who believe enter into rest, so you must first believe before you are saved.

1 Thess 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

 

[Winman]

There was something called "THE FALL". If you read the first 3 chapters of Genesis then you will learn about it. Also you might look up Scripture and learn that man is incapable of GOOD by GOD's standard.

There was not a fall, and if you study the first 4 chapters of Genesis you will learn this is a man-made invention. There is not one word that says man's moral nature was cursed and that man lost the ability to hear and believe God's word. There is not one word to indicate that unsaved man lost the ability to do some good. In fact, the exact opposite is clearly shown.

Here is the curse.

Gen 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Not one word saying God cursed man's moral nature. In fact, God himself confirmed that man knows both good and evil.

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Man still knew what good is, and the scriptures show in the very next chapter that unsaved man can do good.

Gen 4:6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

When Cain's offering was not accepted, he was very angry and jealous of his brother Abel whose offering was accepted.

But note the Lord himself said Cain could do well and offer an acceptable sacrifice. In fact, the word "if" shown twice in verse 7 shows that Cain had the ability to choose to do well or not.

Cain did not because he was proud. That was his choice. He could have listened to God and offered an acceptable sacrifice, the Lord himself said so.

So, the scriptures do not teach that man's moral nature fell. God did not curse man's nature, and the scriptures show clearly that an unsaved man can hear and obey God if he chooses to do so.

It really comes down to this, will you believe a doctrine taught by man, or believe what the scriptures clearly show??

 

[webdog]

There was not a fall, and if you study the first 4 chapters of Genesis you will learn this is a man-made invention. There is not one word that says man's moral nature was cursed and that man lost the ability to hear and believe God's word. There is not one word to indicate that unsaved man lost the ability to do some good. In fact, the exact opposite is clearly shown.

Here is the curse.

Gen 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Not one word saying God cursed man's moral nature. In fact, God himself confirmed that man knows both good and evil.

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Man still knew what good is, and the scriptures show in the very next chapter that unsaved man can do good.

Gen 4:6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

When Cain's offering was not accepted, he was very angry and jealous of his brother Abel whose offering was accepted.

But note the Lord himself said Cain could do well and offer an acceptable sacrifice. In fact, the word "if" shown twice in verse 7 shows that Cain had the ability to choose to do well or not.

Cain did not because he was proud. That was his choice. He could have listened to God and offered an acceptable sacrifice, the Lord himself said so.

So, the scriptures do not teach that man's moral nature fell. God did not curse man's nature, and the scriptures show clearly that an unsaved man can hear and obey God if he chooses to do so.

It really comes down to this, will you believe a doctrine taught by man, or believe what the scriptures clearly show??

I usually agree with much of what you post here, but on this topic of the fall being a man made doctrine, I disagree. It is clear by looking at children that the fall has taken place. My 22 month old daughter's first word was "MINE". Sin stems from self and it is clear we have all been created with a sin nature. I do agree that the fall hasn't taken away the ability to believe, but it requires God's acting in man's life first to happen (I'm not speaking of regeneration, either). The fall could probably use it's own thread in order not to derail this one.

 

[OldRegular]

Scripture teaches that man was created upright or righteous and with a free will. Then Adam rebelled against God. This rebellion is usually called THE FALL.

What freewillers, Arminians, semi-Pelagians, or whatever cannot seem to understand is that with THE Fall all creation was affected. Death, both physical and spiritual, entered Creation. Adam no longer had his, much vaunted on this Forum, free will. Instead Adam and all his progeny were in bondage to sin. They were deluded into believing that they had free will that they still had the ability to meet GOD's standard of that which is good. But Scripture says otherwise:

Psalm 14:2, 3
2. The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Romans 3:10-18
10. As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11. There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13. Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
14. Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
15. Their feet are swift to shed blood:
16. Destruction and misery are in their ways:
17. And the way of peace have they not known:
18. There is no fear of God before their eyes.

The Apostle Paul also tells us that not only man but all creation was affected by THE FALL:

Romans 8:18-23
18. For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19. For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20. For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21. Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23. And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Paul says: For the creature was made subject to vanity. Can anyone doubt that truth considering the arrogance of unregenerate man!

Those freewillers, Arminians, semi-Pelagians, or whatever delight in saying that we who believe in the Sovereign Grace of GOD in the Salvation of HIS Elect are robots. In truth they are the ROBOTS and Satan is the puppet master. It is only GOD who can set mankind free as Scripture tells us:

John 8:36. If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

Now if man is free as the freewillers, Arminians, semi-Pelagians, or whatever delight in saying just what does the above Scripture mean???????

 

[webdog]

What freewillers, Arminians, semi-Pelagians, or whatever cannot seem to understand is that with THE Fall all creation was affected. Death, both physical and spiritual, entered Creation. Adam no longer had his, much vaunted on this Forum, free will. Instead Adam and all his progeny were in bondage to sin. They were deluded into believing that they had free will that they still had the ability to meet GOD's standard of that which is good. But Scripture says otherwise:

As usual your continued ignorance is prevalent. I just got done posting right above you how man was affected by the fall...and you go on here saying we don't believe man was affected. Ignorance is not bliss. One thing (the fall) does not affect the other (free will) the way you have presented it.

 

[OldRegular]

Once again:

John 8:36. If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

Now if man has freewill as the freewillers, Arminians, semi-Pelagians, or whatever delight in saying just what does the above Scripture mean???????

 

[OldRegular]

As usual your continued ignorance is prevalent. I just got done posting right above you how man was affected by the fall...and you go on here saying we don't believe man was affected. Ignorance is not bliss. One thing (the fall) does not affect the other (free will) the way you have presented it.

Webdog

If you think that your 22 month old daughter's first word was "MINE" is indicative of man's fallen state :laugh::laugh::wavey::wavey:!

 

[webdog]

Webdog

If you think that your 22 month old daughter's first word was "MINE" is indicative of man's fallen state :laugh::laugh::wavey::wavey:!

I think if you don't, it would be more alarming. Nobody had to teach her that, so it had to come from someplace.

 

[webdog]

Once again:

John 8:36. If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

Now if man has freewill as the freewillers, Arminians, semi-Pelagians, or whatever delight in saying just what does the above Scripture mean???????

It means what it says and has nothing to do with free will whatsoever. In Christ we are free from sin...what is so hard to understand about that?

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Once again:

John 8:36. If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

Now if man has freewill as the freewillers, Arminians, semi-Pelagians, or whatever delight in saying just what does the above Scripture mean???????

Based on the context of that verse, Jesus tells those Jews (and me) that unless the Son of God frees me from sin, I am a slave to it. But if He does free me, then I am free indeed.

As it relates to the topic of freewill, common sense should tell anyone that a slave is not free.

 

[webdog]

Based on the context of that verse, Jesus tells those Jews (and me) that unless the Son of God frees me from sin, I am a slave to it. But if He does free me, then I am free indeed.

As it relates to the topic of freewill, common sense should tell anyone that a slave is not free.

...but it doesn't tell you how the slave became to be so.

 

[OldRegular]

I think if you don't, it would be more alarming. Nobody had to teach her that, so it had to come from someplace.

Generally young children learn from watching and listening to those around them!

 

[OldRegular]

...but it doesn't tell you how the slave became to be so.

Born that way.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

:laugh:

...but it doesn't tell you how the slave became to be so.

To go with the analogy, who the heck cares. If I am in the bondage of slavery, all I want is freedom. Jesus is telling me that I am powerless to free myself and He is able to set me free.

If we were enslaved by the same tyrant, and someone came to free us..and you said, "yeah, He can free us, but He didn't say how you got into slavery" I'd say, "Ok, you wait here and figure that out while I beg this good master for my freedom. And if He sets me free I will be free indeed.' :laugh:

 

[webdog]

:laugh:

To go with the analogy, who the heck cares. If I am in the bondage of slavery, all I want is freedom. Jesus is telling me that I am powerless to free myself and He is able to set me free.

If we were enslaved by the same tyrant, and someone came to free us..and you said, "yeah, He can free us, but He didn't say how you got into slavery" I'd say, "Ok, you wait here and figure that out while I beg this good master for my freedom. And if He sets me free I will be free indeed.' :laugh:

Who cares?!? Context means everything! When the passage was written one CHOSE to become a slave...it was not the horrific slavery our country witnessed that you seem to be reading into the text.

 

[webdog]

Born that way.

Wrong. Brush up on your OT Law.

 

[webdog]

Generally young children learn from watching and listening to those around them!

Garbage....

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Who cares?!? Context means everything! When the passage was written one CHOSE to become a slave...it was not the horrific slavery our country witnessed that you seem to be reading into the text.

He told the Jews that the one who commits sin is a slave of it. It seems your the one reading choice into the text.

The text itself is just speaking about realities and the focus is Jesus.

But I am not debating with you, just expressing my difference of view.