Where Does Believing Faith Come From

[Havensdad]

Do you think God is honored by people who are puppets or robots?

God is a robot?!?!

God wants people who choose him of their own free will. That is real love, that is genuine love.

You just said that what you believe comes straight from scripture. But this is nowhere in scripture. This is the teaching of men.

And the verse comparing the Holy Spirit to the wind has not one word about God regenerating a man to believe. You have to insert that yourself. It is showing that the Holy Spirit cannot be seen with the eyes, yet it's effects can be seen in the man who possesses it, just as we can see the wind rustle the leaves or hear it blow through the trees, but yet not see it.

Not at all. Jesus says specifically that he is explaining "being born again".

 

[Havensdad]

Free will involves making a choice and being responsible for its consequences. It involves cause and effect in a timeline. God is not limited to existence in a timeline. God exists in all times at once. Therefore, cause and effect concepts are not part of God's nature.

Nothing about choice involves a timeline, by necessity. We are made in the image of God: He has free will.

God is shown making choices: free will is requisite for making choices. If you do not have free will, it is nothing but a roulette shoot; blind chance. Surely you do not believe that blind chance is the determiner of everything?

 

[Winman]

And God can change his mind and often has. In fact, the word repent is used more in association with God in the scriptures than man.

Gen 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

Exo 32:14 And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.

Judg 2:18 And when the LORD raised them up judges, then the LORD was with the judge, and delivered them out of the hand of their enemies all the days of the judge: for it repented the LORD because of their groanings by reason of them that oppressed them and vexed them.

We are made in God's image. We have our own mind, and our own free will, and are able to exercise it just as God.

 

[Johnv]

Nothing about choice involves a timeline, by necessity.

Huh? Sure it does. You make a choice to drop a glass at 11:01:59, and at 12:00:00 it hits the floor. If you regret a choice, you can't go back in time and undo it. Everything we humans do is limited to a linear timeline. Our very existedce is limited by our existence on that time line. The effect of our choices is limited to that timelime.

God's existence is not limited to a linear timeline. Free will, however, is limited to a linear existence. Free will is a human condition, but it is not a divine condition.

Surely you do not believe that blind chance is the determiner of everything?

How on earth can you get that out of what I said?

 

[Havensdad]

And God can change his mind and often has. In fact, the word repent is used more in association with God in the scriptures than man.

Gen 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

Exo 32:14 And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.

Judg 2:18 And when the LORD raised them up judges, then the LORD was with the judge, and delivered them out of the hand of their enemies all the days of the judge: for it repented the LORD because of their groanings by reason of them that oppressed them and vexed them.

I would disagree with this: this word repent does not mean to completely change one's mind: in fact, in one of these verses the "repenting" brings events back into line with what God had ALREADY declared was going to happen.

But now I am getting the picture: you are an open theist?

We are made in God's image. We have our own mind, and our own free will, and are able to exercise it just as God.

But Scripture says God cannot sin. So the ability to choose sin, is not requisite to free will. You have to have a definition of free will, which does not make man's will greater than God's.

Your definition gives man a Free will, which not even God himself has: worse than that, since you are stating that anyone who has limited choices is a robot, you are calling God a robot!

 

[Havensdad]

Huh? Sure it does. You make a choice to drop a glass at 11:01:59, and at 12:00:00 it hits the floor. If you regret a choice, you can't go back in time and undo it. Everything we humans do is limited to a linear timeline. Our very existedce is limited by our existence on that time line. The effect of our choices is limited to that timelime.

God's existence is not limited to a linear timeline. Free will, however, is limited to a linear existence. Free will is a human condition, but it is not a divine condition.

How on earth can you get that out of what I said?

Not at all. Our choices are based upon a LOGICAL progression, not a temporal progression; just like God's. God makes choices based on a logical progression of thought: this can be seen in many instances throughout scripture. "If this, then this." We, as humans, make choices in the same way: we are created "In the Image of God."

So again, Time is not requisite to making choices and free will: only the ability to have rational thought, which God has.

 

[Winman]

God is a robot?!?!



You just said that what you believe comes straight from scripture. But this is nowhere in scripture. This is the teaching of men.



Not at all. Jesus says specifically that he is explaining "being born again".

Now you are just being foolish. That is not what I said and you know it.

Yes, Jesus was speaking of being born again, but he was showing it cannot be observed with the eyes. Nicodemus had just asked how a man can enter his mother's womb and be born again. Jesus was showing that the new birth takes place on the inside and cannot be seen.

John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

These verses do say we are born of the Spirit. But it does not say we are regenerated to believe. You read that into it because you want it to be there, but it is not.

I am amazed that you cannot see that you are doing this.

But Scripture says God cannot sin. So the ability to choose sin, is not requisite to free will. You have to have a definition of free will, which does not make man's will greater than God's.

I agree, God cannot sin. But it is also true that it is never God's will to sin. The same cannot be said of us.

 

[Amy.G]

Where does faith come from?
God.

Where does the ability to walk come from?
God.

Where does the ability to reason come from?
God

Where does the ability to love come from?
God.


But in each of these things that God has given me, I still have to exercise MY will to do them.

 

[Havensdad]

Now you are just being foolish. That is not what I said and you know it.

This attack is not necessary. Just because you are not explaining yourself well, does not mean I am being foolish.

Yes, Jesus was speaking of being born again, but he was showing it cannot be observed with the eyes. Nicodemus had just asked how a man can enter his mother's womb and be born again. Jesus was showing that the new birth takes place on the inside and cannot be seen.

John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

These verses do say we are born of the Spirit. But it does not say we are regenerated to believe. You read that into it because you want it to be there, but it is not.

I am amazed that you cannot see that you are doing this.

Again, this is silly contention. Simply saying that I am reading something into a verse, does not make it so. You are reading it "out of" the verse.

The question Nicodemus asks, which Jesus is responding to, is "How can a man be born again.."

That is what Jesus is responding to. Nicodemus is not asking Jesus if the Spirit is visible, or if we can see it. Nicodemus is asking how can a man do it? How is it possible?

Jesus' response to this question, is that a man cannot: the Spirit "blows where it wishes." All that a man can do, is observe the result of the will of the Spirit.

Joh 3:8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit."

So when someone declares "Jesus is the Christ!", this is a result of the Spirit working where IT wishes: we can just see the result, which is saving faith.

I agree, God cannot sin. But it is also true that it is never God's will to sin. The same cannot be said of us.

If God has free will, then the ability to choose evil is not pre-requisite to free will.

This being the case, why did Adam and Eve sin in the Garden?

 

[Winman]

Thank you Amy, that is exactly how I see it also. Everything we have is a gift of God. I did not create myself, I owe my very existence to God. And I believe God gave some gifts to all men whether saved or not, the attributes you mentioned, and more.

Some call these "common graces" because they are given to all men. And as Amy said, God makes us responsible in how we use these gifts and abilities. If we did not have personal control over these attributes, then we cannot be held responsible.

All law understands this, we do not hold a small child responsible for crime because they lack the maturity to understand their actions. We do not hold the mentally handicapped or the truly insane responsible for crime for the same reasons.

Even unsaved men understand this, but Calvinists cannot.

 

[Havensdad]

Even unsaved men understand this, but Calvinists cannot.

Do you always treat your brothers in Christ this way? You must not be very popular at your Church.

 

[Revmitchell]

So God tells us in 1 Corinthians 2:14, Ephesians 2;8-9, Galatians 5:22, John 14:16-17, 1 Corinthians 2:15, 1 Corinthians 12;9, and many other verses that faith can only come from the Holy Spirit who is the counselor, the Spirit of truth.

hmmm...let's take a look at those verses:

and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. 1Co 2:14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him,

Nope its not there. Nothing there says saving faith can only come from the Holy Spirit.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,

Here a weak argument can be made but it quickly dissipates once you know that the second half of the verse speaks to the subject which is "saved". So nope not there.

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,

nope no there oh wait I get it. You think that faithfulness being a fruit of the Spirit means that saving faith is imposed on us by God never to be refused. So tell me are you always faithful? If you have failed even for a second then God is not sovereign by your own definition.

moving on

J

oh 14:16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever,
Joh 14:17 even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you.

No this doesn't say any such thing either. It does speak however of the indwelling of the Spirit for the purpose of guiding the redeemed which Christ sent as an earnest of our future redemption.

1Co 2:15 The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one.

Nothing here says faith can only come from the Holy Ghost.

1Co 12:9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit,

So you took every verse you could find that implied faith was a gift and used it to make your point (failed as it is) regardless of context? Just asking because this yet again fails to make your point. If a reasonable person were to use this then we would have to conclude, based on the context of that passage rather than snipping out a verse that has a combination of words that fits your pretext, that God only gives faith to some believers and not all.


Now having said that I do hold to the total depravity of man. I do believe that man cannot come to God on his own unless God opens up his heart first. But scripture does not bear out the argument that because God opens up man's heart He (meaning God) does not allow them to reject Him (meaning God). And a much better argument could be made for your position. I could do it myself.

 

[Johnv]

Not at all. Our choices are based upon a LOGICAL progression, not a temporal progression; just like God's.

All human progression, including logical progression, exists in a temporal frame. We are bound by the rules of the temporal frame. God is not so bound.

 

[Winman]

This attack is not necessary. Just because you are not explaining yourself well, does not mean I am being foolish.

Again, this is silly contention. Simply saying that I am reading something into a verse, does not make it so. You are reading it "out of" the verse.

The question Nicodemus asks, which Jesus is responding to, is "How can a man be born again.."

That is what Jesus is responding to. Nicodemus is not asking Jesus if the Spirit is visible, or if we can see it. Nicodemus is asking how can a man do it? How is it possible?

Jesus' response to this question, is that a man cannot: the Spirit "blows where it wishes." All that a man can do, is observe the result of the will of the Spirit.

Joh 3:8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit."

So when someone declares "Jesus is the Christ!", this is a result of the Spirit working where IT wishes: we can just see the result, which is saving faith.


If God has free will, then the ability to choose evil is not pre-requisite to free will.

This being the case, why did Adam and Eve sin in the Garden?

I agree with you that Nicodemus was asking "how" a man can be born again. And Jesus tells him by the Holy Spirit.

But the specific issue of the Holy Spirit regenerating a man to believe is not addressed in this passage.

And even yourself (though I disagree with you 100%) believe regeneration and being born again are two seperate happenings. That is why I asked you before if a man receives the Holy Spirit twice, first to regenrate a man to believe, and then again to be born again.

So, by YOUR definition (which I disagree with), Jesus is not speaking of regeneration whatsoever.

And just because God never wills to sin doesn't mean he doesn't have free will. He does, but he never wills to sin. He is HOLY.

And why did Adam and Eve sin? Eve ate because she was deceived by the serpent, and she fell to the temptation that the fruit looked good to eat and was desired to make one wise.

Adam on the other hand was not deceived. I cannot be dogmatic about this, but I believe Adam ate because he loved Eve and wanted to be where she was. If she was going to die, he chose to die also. But that is personal conjecture.

 

[Havensdad]

And even yourself (though I disagree with you 100%) believe regeneration and being born again are two seperate happenings. That is why I asked you before if a man receives the Holy Spirit twice, first to regenrate a man to believe, and then again to be born again.

So, by YOUR definition (which I disagree with), Jesus is not speaking of regeneration whatsoever.

Actually, I stated that being justified/saved and being born again, were two different things. And no, you do not receive the Holy Spirit twice: the Holy Spirit can work on someone without indwelling them.

Jesus is speaking of being born again, which according to scripture precedes saving faith and justification. The Holy Spirit moves where He wills, to "open eyes", "Free us from the devil", etc.

And just because God never wills to sin doesn't mean he doesn't have free will. He does, but he never wills to sin. He is HOLY.

Reaaalllly? Then...

#1 Just because non born again man never chooses against His nature, doesn't mean he doesn't have free will. He does, but He never wills to follow God. He is "wicked" and "unrighteous."

#2 Just because a born again person never rejects Gods offer of salvation, doesn't mean that he doesn't have free will. He does, but he never chooses to reject it: his eyes are "open" and he is "free in regard to sin."

And why did Adam and Eve sin? Eve ate because she was deceived by the serpent, and she fell to the temptation that the fruit looked good to eat and was desired to make one wise.

Why was she tempted? Why did God create here where she could be tempted with evil? God "cannot be tempted with evil", so why didn't He make man the same? Since you admit God has free will, why didn't He just give Adam and Eve the kind of free will He had? Was he simply impotent, and was not capable?

Adam on the other hand was not deceived. I cannot be dogmatic about this, but I believe Adam ate because he loved Eve and wanted to be where she was. If she was going to die, he chose to die also. But that is personal conjecture.

It is, so I will not comment on it.

 

[Havensdad]

All human progression, including logical progression, exists in a temporal frame. We are bound by the rules of the temporal frame. God is not so bound.

But this in no way prohibits free will. The prerequisite for free will, is simply the ability to reason and choose; to have a logical progression of thoughts. Being temporally bound is not requisite for free will.

 

[OldRegular]

Why do Calvinist's respond with the teachings of men?? I don't need men to tell me what the scriptures say. I on very rare occasion will consult a commentary, but not often. I find the scriptures define and explain themselves. If I am interested in a particular subject, I look up all the possible verses I can find concerning that subject and compare them.

First Winman, as I have told you on numerous occasions, I am not a Calvinist. I have never read anything written by Calvin. He reportedly held many beliefs that I do not.

That being said you do need someone to teach you since you do a poor job of interpreting Scripture. Furthermore, it is sheer arrogance to believe that I alone am privy to the understanding of Scripture given by the Holy Spirit. GOD the Holy Spirit may give other Christians understanding of a passage of Scripture that HE does not give to me. It is, therefore, profitable to read what other reputable writers have to say, recognizing that they are as entitled to be wrong as you or me.

I suspect that John Gill, an 18th century English Baptist, had much more understanding of Scripture that you or me. He is the only man who ever wrote a commentary on ever passage of Scripture.

I suspect that Charles Spurgeon, a 19th Century English Baptist, had much more understanding of Scripture that you or me.

I suspect that John Dagg, the first Southern Baptist to write a book on theology, had much more understanding of Scripture that you or me.

I suspect that James P. Boyce, Basil Manly, Jr., and John Broadus, founders of the first Southern Baptist Seminary, had much more understanding of Scripture that you or me.

I suspect that Al Mohler, current president of Southern Seminary, has much more understanding of Scripture that you or me.

All of these men believed in the Doctrines of Grace taught in the Bible. So you see I don't have to read Calvin.

That being said it is possible that GOD may give you or me an understanding of a passage of Scripture that HE did not give these Saints.

May I suggest that you purchase the book by Thomas Nettles entitled By His Grace and for His Glory which presents a history of Baptists with emphasis on Southern Baptists as well as a history of Baptist understanding of the Doctrines of Grace.

 

[Johnv]

Being temporally bound is not requisite for free will.

ANYTHING that has an if/then parameter is bound by the nature of the linear timeline. God is not limited by such, because God's existence is not bound by a linear timeline.

 

[OldRegular]

Saying that when a men is regenerated that he will suddenly agree in will with God without even being aware of it is unscriptural. You will not find one single verse in the scriptures to support it.

And it is plain dumb on the face of it. Do you think God is honored by people who are puppets or robots? They do not love him because they choose to, they are literally forced to. That would be a counterfeit love, it would not be genuine at all. If I can understand this, do you not think God can understand this?

God wants people who choose him of their own free will. That is real love, that is genuine love.

Winman your remarks above indicate that you seem completely unaware of what happens when a person is regenerated. Dagg describes it according to his experience. He also quotes a very cogent passage of Scripture which you really need to read and understand.

2 Corinthians 5:17, KJV
17. Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

And the verse comparing the Holy Spirit to the wind has not one word about God regenerating a man to believe. You have to insert that yourself. It is showing that the Holy Spirit cannot be seen with the eyes, yet it's effects can be seen in the man who possesses it, just as we can see the wind rustle the leaves or hear it blow through the trees, but yet not see it.

You are wrong again. Jesus Christ is explaining to someone like you the means of the New Birth or regeneration, an act of the Holy Spirit. You should read and pray for understanding.

 

[BaptistBob]

No it's not. Those that are drawn, are raised on the last day. That phrase is never used of unbelievers: it refers to salvation.

No it does not say that. I already addressed this misunderstaning of yours and you made no comment other than to quote two verses which I then explained to you.