Seems pretty simple. Father must draw.
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Where Does Faith Come From?
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From A Baptist Catechism with Commentary,by WR.Downing, used by permission
The Nature of Saving Faith.
This can be found in the following particulars: faith consists of a belief, an assent to truth and its implications, a corresponding commitment—a trust or reliance upon its object.
It is the gift of God, graciously imparted at regeneration.
This makes saving faith unique and gives to it its distinct, objective character.
Although it is the gift of God, faith is exercised by the individual as his own.
Mere human trust, however, is entirely subjective, and possibly without any objective character, and so would necessarily vary from one person to another.
As the gift of God, saving faith reflects that unique faith described in Scripture and remains identical in character for each and every true convert. Faith necessitates a corresponding kind of life or consistent expression, i.e., Christian faithfulness. One enters into a life of belief and trust. When considering the nature of saving faith, we must carefully note that not all faith is saving faith.
About this, the Scriptures are very clear (Matt. 13:5–6, 20–21; Lk. 8:14; Jn. 2:23–25). The attitude of many within modern evangelical Christianity is that all faith is saving faith, and that a person’s profession of faith is to be taken at face value and never questioned.
Further, it is assumed that saving faith is synonymous with mere human trust, and that such faith is, indeed, the product of our own personalities. Every person, it is assumed, has the faith to believe in Christ, the only issue is where he directs such faith.
See Question 88. There are various kinds of “faith” described in Scripture, and these need to be carefully marked.
To be defective at this crucial point is to be fatally deceived:
first, there is a doctrinal faith (Acts 6:7; 13:8; 14:22; 16:5; 24:24; Rom. 1:5; 10:8; 2 Tim. 4:7; Jude 3). To speak of a doctrinal faith is legitimate. The New Testament uses the term “faith” to denote either the doctrinal content of Christianity or Christianity in general. It is quite possible, however, to have a merely doctrinal faith without saving grace. There are those whose faith is contained within creeds or confessions, but it is not vital and life– transforming.
Second, there is a merely intellectual faith (1 Cor. 15:1–2; Jas. 2:19). It is possible to have such a bare faith, yet to “believe in vain” [to no purpose]. This is a faith which is isolated from Scripture and a conversion experience with its subsequent life. This may describe many who only have a momentary or isolated religious experience. This seems to be the case of those “sown among thorns” who, although retaining their profession “bring no fruit to perfection” (Lk. 8:14). This may well describe many nominal professing Christians.
Third, there is a temporary faith (Matt. 13:20–21; Jn. 2:23–25), which may be either merely intellectual or emotional, based upon something seen or felt, but not solidly grounded in the Scriptures. It was so with the people in Jn. 2:23–25, who gawked at the sights, but their hearts remained unchanged. The same was true of the stony ground hearers who endure in their profession for only a short time (Matt. 13:5–6, 20–21).
The Nature of Saving Faith.
This can be found in the following particulars: faith consists of a belief, an assent to truth and its implications, a corresponding commitment—a trust or reliance upon its object.
It is the gift of God, graciously imparted at regeneration.
This makes saving faith unique and gives to it its distinct, objective character.
Although it is the gift of God, faith is exercised by the individual as his own.
Mere human trust, however, is entirely subjective, and possibly without any objective character, and so would necessarily vary from one person to another.
As the gift of God, saving faith reflects that unique faith described in Scripture and remains identical in character for each and every true convert. Faith necessitates a corresponding kind of life or consistent expression, i.e., Christian faithfulness. One enters into a life of belief and trust. When considering the nature of saving faith, we must carefully note that not all faith is saving faith.
About this, the Scriptures are very clear (Matt. 13:5–6, 20–21; Lk. 8:14; Jn. 2:23–25). The attitude of many within modern evangelical Christianity is that all faith is saving faith, and that a person’s profession of faith is to be taken at face value and never questioned.
Further, it is assumed that saving faith is synonymous with mere human trust, and that such faith is, indeed, the product of our own personalities. Every person, it is assumed, has the faith to believe in Christ, the only issue is where he directs such faith.
See Question 88. There are various kinds of “faith” described in Scripture, and these need to be carefully marked.
To be defective at this crucial point is to be fatally deceived:
first, there is a doctrinal faith (Acts 6:7; 13:8; 14:22; 16:5; 24:24; Rom. 1:5; 10:8; 2 Tim. 4:7; Jude 3). To speak of a doctrinal faith is legitimate. The New Testament uses the term “faith” to denote either the doctrinal content of Christianity or Christianity in general. It is quite possible, however, to have a merely doctrinal faith without saving grace. There are those whose faith is contained within creeds or confessions, but it is not vital and life– transforming.
Second, there is a merely intellectual faith (1 Cor. 15:1–2; Jas. 2:19). It is possible to have such a bare faith, yet to “believe in vain” [to no purpose]. This is a faith which is isolated from Scripture and a conversion experience with its subsequent life. This may describe many who only have a momentary or isolated religious experience. This seems to be the case of those “sown among thorns” who, although retaining their profession “bring no fruit to perfection” (Lk. 8:14). This may well describe many nominal professing Christians.
Third, there is a temporary faith (Matt. 13:20–21; Jn. 2:23–25), which may be either merely intellectual or emotional, based upon something seen or felt, but not solidly grounded in the Scriptures. It was so with the people in Jn. 2:23–25, who gawked at the sights, but their hearts remained unchanged. The same was true of the stony ground hearers who endure in their profession for only a short time (Matt. 13:5–6, 20–21).
pt2
Fourth, there is a merely theoretical faith, which exists only in principle, for the sake of convenience or for personal advantage (Jn. 12:42–43; Acts 26:27–28). This characterized some secret, compromising Jewish leaders, and also King Agrippa II who, although an Idumean [descendant of Esau], had become a devotee of Judaism.
Finally, there is a selective faith, which chooses to believe some things in the Scripture, but not others. For example, this may be a faith which may believe in heaven, but not in hell; or it may be a faith which does not come to terms scripturally with the Lordship of Jesus Christ (Matt. 28:18; Acts 2:36; Rom. 10:9–10; 2 Cor. 4:5). We cannot accept or receive the Lord Jesus Christ as anyone less than he is. God has made him “Lord,” and we must receive him as such. To “accept” him as anyone less is not saving faith in the Lord Jesus Christ of Scripture.
Saving faith possesses three elements:
first, an intellectual element, or knowledge. This is the cognitive foundation for faith, i.e., its ground or warrant in God and his Word (Rom. 10:17).
Second, an emotional element, or an assent as cognition passes into conviction that Christ is the only and all– sufficient Savior (Acts 4:12; Rom. 10:9–10; Eph. 2:8–10).
Third, a volitional element, or the active, joyful and self–abandoning trust in Christ for deliverance, pardon, forgiveness and reconciliation (Rom. 1:17; Eph. 1:13; Phil. 1:29; 1 Pet. 1:3–5). Saving faith is utter, unreserved commitment to Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior (Jn. 3:16; Acts 16:31; Phil. 1:29). The grammatical constructions of the New Testament are as follows: We have “faith in Christ” (Gal. 3:26), “believe in [into] Christ” (Jn. 3:16; Phil. 1:29), or “believe on [upon] Christ” (Acts 16:31) for salvation. These were technical expressions in the culture and language of that day; there was no question wherever the gospel was preached as to the commitment of faith—it meant nothing less than utter, unreserved commitment to Jesus Christ as Lord.
Fourth, there is a merely theoretical faith, which exists only in principle, for the sake of convenience or for personal advantage (Jn. 12:42–43; Acts 26:27–28). This characterized some secret, compromising Jewish leaders, and also King Agrippa II who, although an Idumean [descendant of Esau], had become a devotee of Judaism.
Finally, there is a selective faith, which chooses to believe some things in the Scripture, but not others. For example, this may be a faith which may believe in heaven, but not in hell; or it may be a faith which does not come to terms scripturally with the Lordship of Jesus Christ (Matt. 28:18; Acts 2:36; Rom. 10:9–10; 2 Cor. 4:5). We cannot accept or receive the Lord Jesus Christ as anyone less than he is. God has made him “Lord,” and we must receive him as such. To “accept” him as anyone less is not saving faith in the Lord Jesus Christ of Scripture.
Saving faith possesses three elements:
first, an intellectual element, or knowledge. This is the cognitive foundation for faith, i.e., its ground or warrant in God and his Word (Rom. 10:17).
Second, an emotional element, or an assent as cognition passes into conviction that Christ is the only and all– sufficient Savior (Acts 4:12; Rom. 10:9–10; Eph. 2:8–10).
Third, a volitional element, or the active, joyful and self–abandoning trust in Christ for deliverance, pardon, forgiveness and reconciliation (Rom. 1:17; Eph. 1:13; Phil. 1:29; 1 Pet. 1:3–5). Saving faith is utter, unreserved commitment to Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior (Jn. 3:16; Acts 16:31; Phil. 1:29). The grammatical constructions of the New Testament are as follows: We have “faith in Christ” (Gal. 3:26), “believe in [into] Christ” (Jn. 3:16; Phil. 1:29), or “believe on [upon] Christ” (Acts 16:31) for salvation. These were technical expressions in the culture and language of that day; there was no question wherever the gospel was preached as to the commitment of faith—it meant nothing less than utter, unreserved commitment to Jesus Christ as Lord.
Sad thread, poster after poster denying the obvious.
His faith, your faith mentioned many times, his God given faith never mentioned.
Talk about Group Think
Ephesians 2:8-9 does not say nor suggest faith is the gift or is part of the gift. The claim is simply reading what is not there into the text. Twaddle
Whose faith did God credit as righteousness in Romans 4:4-5? "Abraham's faith, his faith.
His faith, your faith mentioned many times, his God given faith never mentioned.
Talk about Group Think
Ephesians 2:8-9 does not say nor suggest faith is the gift or is part of the gift. The claim is simply reading what is not there into the text. Twaddle
Whose faith did God credit as righteousness in Romans 4:4-5? "Abraham's faith, his faith.
Jesus Saves!
Active Member
Romans 12:2-3 KJVS
[2] And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. [3] For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
[2] And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. [3] For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
I was watching the Dividing Line the other day on youtube. Dr. White was critiquing an exchange Dr. Flowers had with Roger Olson. Dr. Flowers stated that the gospel saves and that the Spirit's need to work was to negate the power of the gospel(or something along those lines as I am paraphrasing what Dr. Flowers said from memory). Roger Olson disagreed with him, as even he said it takes the Spirit to work through the gospel(again, paraphrasing Olson's quote from memory).
What Dr. Flowers stated was pure Pelagianism. And RM said the exact same thing, that the gospel alone saves.
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Rm listens to that podcast quite often and has referenced it several times.
Dr. White was even stunned that he[lf] went beyond Roger Olsen
Dr. Flowers had a discussion with Roger Olson back around April of this year. On his site, he said this about the gospel...
“Some argue that the gospel is not sufficient to enable the lost to believe without the work of the Holy Spirit. I argue the gospel is always sufficient to enable the lost to believe because IT IS a work of the Holy Spirit.”
The gospel, to the lost, is nothing more than words. The lost are hostile towards God, hate Him, are at enmity(have an ill-will towards) Him. Unless the Spirit draws through the gospel message, they will never believe. To deny the Spirit's work in the gospel message is Pelagiansim.
He then went on to quote 1 Peter 5:5-6: “God opposes the proud but shows favor to the humble.” Humble yourselves, therefore, under God’s mighty hand, that he may lift you up in due time.
The thing Dr. Flowers has failed to see is that is addressed to believers, not the lost. Look back at 1 Peter 1 where Peter wrote To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.[1 Peter 1:1-2] Right before 1 Peter 5:5-6 Peter wrote Therefore, I exhort the elders among you, as your fellow elder and witness of the sufferings of Christ, and a partaker also of the glory that is to be revealed, shepherd the flock of God among you, exercising oversight not under compulsion, but voluntarily, according to the will of God; and not for sordid gain, but with eagerness; nor yet as lording it over those allotted to your charge, but proving to be examples to the flock. And when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the unfading crown of glory. You younger men, likewise, be subject to your elders; and all of you, clothe yourselves with humility toward one another, for GOD IS OPPOSED TO THE PROUD, BUT GIVES GRACE TO THE HUMBLE.[1 Peter 5:1-5] Dr. Flowers quoted the latter portion of 1 Peter 5:5 and extrapolated it from its context. Humbling yourselves was addressing the need to have humility towards each other and submit themselves to each other and to the elders that were overseers of them. Those who take care of the needs of others over their needs is the sign of humility, humbleness. That is what Peter is telling them here.
He then quotes James 4:10 and gives absolutely no exegesis, just posts it w/o it. James tells us who this is addressed to James, a bond-servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, To the twelve tribes who are dispersed abroad: Greetings. Consider it all joy, my brethren, when you encounter various trials, knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance. And let endurance have its perfect result, so that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.[James 1:1-4] James is writing to believers, not the lost. Then in James 4 we see who is addressed in verse 10 by taking the passage as a WHOLE, not some single verse standing alone. That's eisegesis. Here is what James wrote Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded.[James 4:8] A lost person can not be double-minded. He then wrote Do not speak against one another, brethren.[James 4:11a] Would not brethren here refer to believers, or his fellow Jews? It seems to be believers, and that was who James was addressing in the beginning of James 1:1-4]
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Rm listens to that podcast quite often and has referenced it several times.
Dr. White was even stunned that he[lf] went beyond Roger Olsen
When Dr. Flowers said what he said, that was EXACTLY who came to my mind. He is espousing what Dr. Flowers teaches at every turn.
Rm listens to that podcast quite often and has referenced it several times.
Dr. White was even stunned that he[lf] went beyond Roger Olsen
Yes. He said Olson was more reformed than Dr. Flowers is. That's saying something.
I think we all know where LF stands on this issue. He is one of Corporate Election's most vocal proponents. It is important that we refute the doctrine on its merits (or lack thereof) and take the focus off LF the individual. Corporate Election falls under the weight of its own arguments.
Now, getting back on point...my apologies to the author of the OP. Though I do think my posts do address those who deny the necessity of faith coming from God as being erroneous.
For to you it has been granted for Christ’s sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake,[Philippians 1:29]
Here Paul says that not only the ability to believe comes from God, but to also suffer affliction. It is through these afflictions, and when God brings us through them, we realize it is God who is building up our faith more and more by bringing us through those afflictions. Look at Job for instance. He knew it was God all along sent these things upon him. He told his wife “You speak as one of the foolish women speaks. Shall we indeed accept good from God and not accept adversity?”[Job 2:10] Yet in all this, Job did not sin with his lips. He knew that everything he received, came from God. At the end of this story, God blesses Job again. Job's faith in God grew as he saw God working in his life, the bad things, as well as the good. If all we had were good things to experience, then we would not grow. As Paul wrote Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God. And not only this, but we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance; and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope; and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.[Romans 5:1-5] Paul is telling them that tribulations bring perseverance, and perseverance brings proven character. This is God's way of building His elect children up in the faith. The Christ even warned them of the perils they would go through, as He told them in Luke 21 they would be delivered up before kings, governors, parents, brothers, family and friends would betray them, and even some of them would be killed. Yet, every whit of this was decreed by God. If we are saved, placed in bubble wrap, and never go through anything, we would never truly grow as Christians. God uses those as a way for us to learn to trust Him more and more.
Ppl fall into deism whenever something bad happens. Like 9/11 for instance. God just sat back and allowed it to happen. He did not decree it, He just allowed it to happen. That's deism. An god made the universe, started it moving and just stepped back and watched the carnage that ensued. The evil, as well as the good, God has decreed. And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.[Romans 8:28] God takes both the good and bad and works them for the good of His elect. He is not seeing something bad happening to us and saying, "Whoa! Sorry about that, but this bad thing that has happened, I can't help you there. Sorry." He works the bad and good to our benefit.
The reason why I said that is that the persecution we suffer has been granted, has been given to us, just as faith, the ability to believe, is also granted, has been given to us. One is just as much a gift of God as the other is.
For to you it has been granted for Christ’s sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake,[Philippians 1:29]
Here Paul says that not only the ability to believe comes from God, but to also suffer affliction. It is through these afflictions, and when God brings us through them, we realize it is God who is building up our faith more and more by bringing us through those afflictions. Look at Job for instance. He knew it was God all along sent these things upon him. He told his wife “You speak as one of the foolish women speaks. Shall we indeed accept good from God and not accept adversity?”[Job 2:10] Yet in all this, Job did not sin with his lips. He knew that everything he received, came from God. At the end of this story, God blesses Job again. Job's faith in God grew as he saw God working in his life, the bad things, as well as the good. If all we had were good things to experience, then we would not grow. As Paul wrote Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God. And not only this, but we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance; and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope; and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.[Romans 5:1-5] Paul is telling them that tribulations bring perseverance, and perseverance brings proven character. This is God's way of building His elect children up in the faith. The Christ even warned them of the perils they would go through, as He told them in Luke 21 they would be delivered up before kings, governors, parents, brothers, family and friends would betray them, and even some of them would be killed. Yet, every whit of this was decreed by God. If we are saved, placed in bubble wrap, and never go through anything, we would never truly grow as Christians. God uses those as a way for us to learn to trust Him more and more.
Ppl fall into deism whenever something bad happens. Like 9/11 for instance. God just sat back and allowed it to happen. He did not decree it, He just allowed it to happen. That's deism. An god made the universe, started it moving and just stepped back and watched the carnage that ensued. The evil, as well as the good, God has decreed. And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.[Romans 8:28] God takes both the good and bad and works them for the good of His elect. He is not seeing something bad happening to us and saying, "Whoa! Sorry about that, but this bad thing that has happened, I can't help you there. Sorry." He works the bad and good to our benefit.
The reason why I said that is that the persecution we suffer has been granted, has been given to us, just as faith, the ability to believe, is also granted, has been given to us. One is just as much a gift of God as the other is.
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The Christ, “But who do you say that I am?”
Simon Peter, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
The Christ, “Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven."[Matthew 16:15-17]
Why was it that Simon Peter was able to rightly tell the Christ who He really is? The Father revealed it to Him. He opened his mind to understand that the Christ was the prophesied Messiah. The reason why others failed to believe the Christ is the Son of God was it was not revealed to them by the Father. No one can will themselves to believe, to exercise faith. No one has innate faith dwelling inside of them waiting on something or someone to believe in. Faith is, indeed, a gift of God.
Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship. And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect. For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith.[Romans 12:1-3] The context of those who have been allotted a measure of faith are the believers.
Simon Peter, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
The Christ, “Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven."[Matthew 16:15-17]
Why was it that Simon Peter was able to rightly tell the Christ who He really is? The Father revealed it to Him. He opened his mind to understand that the Christ was the prophesied Messiah. The reason why others failed to believe the Christ is the Son of God was it was not revealed to them by the Father. No one can will themselves to believe, to exercise faith. No one has innate faith dwelling inside of them waiting on something or someone to believe in. Faith is, indeed, a gift of God.
Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship. And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect. For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith.[Romans 12:1-3] The context of those who have been allotted a measure of faith are the believers.
mailmandan
Active Member
Amen! Although it is our responsibility to choose to believe and we will be held accountable for unbelief (John 3:18), saving faith in Christ is never exclusively a matter of human decision. Unless the Father draws us (John 6:44) and enables us/it has been granted from the Father (John 6:65), we would NEVER come to believe/place saving faith in Christ all by ourselves. The approach of the soul to Christ is initiated by the Father, but He doesn't force us to choose Christ, we must choose Him. The impulse to faith in Christ comes from God.
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
I think if we look for the fruit of the Spirit, we can see it in Cornelius before he heard Peter preach. In view of this, faith/faithfulness is a condition of the Born Again heart. And so a faithful nature produces faithful works. Normally the New Birth precedes the hearing of the gospel even if by a matter of seconds. But it is the salvation Christ bought for the elect even if they remain beyond the reach of the gospel. Infants, imbeciles, those who fall between the cracks, etc.
Faith, the ability to accept the unseen is a gift , so we can realize Grace through faith but where does unbelief come from?
Rom 3:3
For what if some did not believe? shall their unbeliefmake the faith of God without effect?
Are we to blame God for our unbelief?
Whether I believe in something or not does not change truth . God gives us the ability to exercise faith to believe or not believe
Rom 3:3
For what if some did not believe? shall their unbeliefmake the faith of God without effect?
Are we to blame God for our unbelief?
Whether I believe in something or not does not change truth . God gives us the ability to exercise faith to believe or not believe
I was careful when I wrote this quote from a Dividing Line episode where Dr. White played a discussion that was between Dr. Flowers and Roger Olson.Rm listens to that podcast quite often and has referenced it several times.
Dr. White was even stunned that he[lf] went beyond Roger Olsen
Roger Olson said something along the lines that if all non-Calvinists would come together and say they believe that a supernatural work of God(something close to that but probably not verbatim) is needed to save sinners, then the semi-Pelagianism claim might go away. To which Dr. Flowers said, “We need the gospel, that the gospel is the power of God unto salvation, not that the gospel PLUS some supernatural extra work that has to happen, is the power of God unto salvation.“
Right there it is! He has denied the supernatural work of God. Just present the gospel and let them choose to accept or reject independently of God’s supernatural working.
Later on he said, “This effectual work of God that has to happen in order for someone to believe the gospel, that is difficult, at least for me, to get over.”
There you have it. He is flatly denying the supernatural work of God, that man can choose Him independently of God supernaturally working to bring about their salvation. Pelagius would be so proud of him right now if he were alive.
Here’s the link to that discussion. Go to 57:00 and start from there.
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
Gup20
Active Member
Sorry, that passage says grace is a the gift & faith is the means to acquiring the gift of grace.
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