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Where Does Faith Come From?

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Gup20

Gup20

Active Member
SovereignGrace said:
Faith is not a choice. Faith is a fruit of the Spirit, my friend.[Galatians 5:22] Yes, Abraham believed God. That belief came through the gospel. Not denying that. But by it(faith) coming through hearing the gospel shows faith is external, not internal.
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Insomuch that you can't believe something you've never heard, yes I agree that faith would come through external means.

[Rom 10:13-17 NASB] 13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED." 14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher? 15 How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, "HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO BRING GOOD NEWS OF GOOD THINGS!" 16 However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, "LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?" 17 So faith [comes] from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.​

Here Paul likens faith to believing a news report. However, this passage (Rom 10) affirms the choice is a major component of faith. The justification for faith precedes the description of how faith comes through preaching and hearing.

[Rom 10:5-11 NASB] 5 For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness. 6 But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: "DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, 'WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?' (that is, to bring Christ down), 7 or 'WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?' (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead)." 8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus [as] Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."​

Of course all of the capitalized sections in both of these passages are quotes from the Old Testament. Specifically, it is quoting from Deuteronomy 30 which is all about choice. Paul says this portion of scripture is talking about the righteousness that comes by faith! Additionally, we see in the context of Deuteronomy 30 that it talks about cirucumcision of the heart which is NT salvation:

[Deu 30:1, 6, 11-15, 19 NASB] 1 "So it shall be when all of these things have come upon you, the blessing and the curse which I have set before you, and you call [them] to mind in all nations where the LORD your God has banished you, ... 6 "Moreover the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live. ... 11 "For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach. 12 "It is not in heaven, that you should say, 'Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?' 13 "Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, 'Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?' 14 "But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it. 15 "See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, and death and adversity; ... 19 "I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,​
 
Gup20

Gup20

Active Member
SovereignGrace said:
Always approaching it from man’s perspective. The reason why the Christ knew those who would not believe was because He knew those that had been predestined. That irks you, doesn’t it? Admit it. That really irks you.

Those who were foreknew, He predestined. Those He predestined, He called. Those He called, He justified. Notice it was He who justified, and it wasn’t us and our innate faith that did it. Those He justified, He also glorified.

Every whit of this was from God. Every single solitary inch of it is His doing. But that irks you, right?
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Does it list any individuals in the passages on predestination or does it talk about them as a whole group? Why would it irk me when I know how it works and it doesn't work the way you think it does.

God predestined the chosen people - the elect. Choosing to believe doesn't' make you elect... it makes you part of the chosen or elect group. We become elect because of God's promise to Abraham to make all of his descendants inherit the promise. Our faith doesn't qualify us as elect... our faith qualifies us for human adoption... and our kinship with Abraham makes us elect because of God's promise to Abraham, and because God keeps his promises.

This is why Calvinism and Arminianism are both a sham... both are absolutely clueless as to how salvation actually works. Total depravity is irrelevant because our choice doesn't directly qualify us for salvation or righteousness... it qualifies us for human adoption and then we inherit righteousness based on kinship with Abraham and based on God's promise to Abraham that his descendants would inherit the everlasting covenant.

Our choice doesn't influence God. He chose the group "the descendants of Abraham" not each member of that group individually. He gave open enrollment into the group and lets us human beings decide which man we want to claim as our father through our decision to believe. Human adoption doesn't require regeneration or indwelling. Faith isn't a mystical or magical power that renews the person. It is mere belief in the gospel, no more different from believing a news report (though with much better results).
 
SovereignGrace

SovereignGrace

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Gup20 said:
Insomuch that you can't believe something you've never heard, yes I agree that faith would come through external means.

[Rom 10:13-17 NASB] 13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED." 14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher? 15 How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, "HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO BRING GOOD NEWS OF GOOD THINGS!" 16 However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, "LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?" 17 So faith [comes] from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.​

Here Paul likens faith to believing a news report. However, this passage (Rom 10) affirms the choice is a major component of faith. The justification for faith precedes the description of how faith comes through preaching and hearing.

[Rom 10:5-11 NASB] 5 For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness. 6 But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: "DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, 'WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?' (that is, to bring Christ down), 7 or 'WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?' (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead)." 8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus [as] Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."​

Of course all of the capitalized sections in both of these passages are quotes from the Old Testament. Specifically, it is quoting from Deuteronomy 30 which is all about choice. Paul says this portion of scripture is talking about the righteousness that comes by faith! Additionally, we see in the context of Deuteronomy 30 that it talks about cirucumcision of the heart which is NT salvation:

[Deu 30:1, 6, 11-15, 19 NASB] 1 "So it shall be when all of these things have come upon you, the blessing and the curse which I have set before you, and you call [them] to mind in all nations where the LORD your God has banished you, ... 6 "Moreover the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live. ... 11 "For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach. 12 "It is not in heaven, that you should say, 'Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?' 13 "Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, 'Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?' 14 "But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it. 15 "See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, and death and adversity; ... 19 "I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,​
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Here’s the point I am making. Men make choices, but these choices are made in accordance to their nature. Men in the flesh can not please God, as Romans 8:9 clearly states. Why can’t they please God? They are devoid of faith, and that is the only way they can please Him, as Hebrews 11:6 states. So, if submitting to God and believing He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him is a good thing, then fallen man can’t do that, as that would be pleasing to Him. That is why God must take the initiative and quicken fallen ppl to spiritual, impart the gifts of faith(which is pleasing to Him) repentance, they exercise them and are saved. All this happens simultaneously.
 
L

loDebar

Well-Known Member
SovereignGrace said:
And yet the Christ said elsewhere But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.[John 10:26] His sheep not only hear His voice, they also follow their Shepherd, as He calls them by name.[John 10:3]
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Correct Faith is hearing God, Those who have exercised faith do want to hear His voice. This is not a salvation verse but obedience of a believer following Him
 
L

loDebar

Well-Known Member
Having faith is not salvation. Having Faith in the correct place allows us to be true to God and receive Salvation... Many have faith even in God but are lost.
 
Reformed1689

Reformed1689

Well-Known Member
Van said:
and deny some of your questions are for the purpose of disparagement.
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Revmitchell said:
Yep, it appears that some like to put the accusation in the form of a question to get by with it.
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Van said:
Sad but true. Sadder still is the fact that the use of against the man arguments, even disguised as a question, are simply fallacies used to defend falsehood.
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Those legitimate questions still remain unanswered. If you take it as an accusation is it because it made you feel guilty?
 
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Revmitchell

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
davidtaylorjr said:
That didn't prove your point at all. It wasn't an accusation, it was a question, the fact that he took it as an accusation he must feel guilty about what his answer must be. So no, didn't prove your point. Do you ever add substance?
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I have been on this board a long time. I have had these debates over and over again. You offer nothing new and your presence and experience here is just one more along the way. I have put more substance on this board than you ever will.

Yes it did and yes it was an accusation written in the form of a question to avoid being gigged for accusing someone. And once again you are engage in the logical fallacy of "tu quoque".
 
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I

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
davidtaylorjr said:
Look at the false accusations you are laying out. Good grief.
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If you ask a question that exposes error, the only answer sometimes is to say false accusation, or I was taken out of context.I was looking for those posts, but cannot find them...which thread was that on?
 
M

MB

Well-Known Member
Iconoclast said:
Look at posts 22,23 that discussed that.
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There is only one kind of faith in God, and it comes by hearing the word of God. Rom 10:17. In fact even the weakest of faith in God is Saving faith. So where is the scripture that states there are different kinds of Faith in God? You say faith is a Gift, but we must receive it if it is a gift. We receive it by hearing the gospel.
MB
 
Reformed

Reformed

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
MB said:
Speaking of saving faith. Why would you care since you believe you are saved before faith? The very term "Saving faith" implies you need it to be saved.
MB
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You are incorrect in your understanding of the Reformed Ordo Salutis. No one is saved apart from faith.
 
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