Where does this fit in your theology?

[JonC]

Then you can't be reformed or Calvinistic

There are Calvinists on both sides of the topic (John Piper comes to mind when it comes to the gift of tongues continuing and John MacArthur comes to mind as being outspoken on the opposite position).

BTW, I am lying in a hammock in the back yard as I respond. I will be in need of some supernatural gifting to get me out of this thing and back in the house.

 

[AustinC]

There are Calvinists on both sides of the topic (John Piper comes to mind when it comes to the gift of tongues continuing and John MacArthur comes to mind as being outspoken on the opposite position).

BTW, I am lying in a hammock in the back yard as I respond. I will be in need of some supernatural gifting to get me out of this thing and back in the house.

Give me a scissors and a head start...

 

[JonC]

@Iconoclast ,

I believe we have discussed this topic before and disagreed (I am not willing to say these gifts have ceased, but have also no first hand knowledge to the contrary).

If I recall correctly (a huge "if") you interpret "when that which is perfect comes" (1 Cor. 13:10) to refer to the Canon of Scripture (please correct me if I am wrong) where I view the passage to be more general (a principle). Both are within the range of interpretation so I do not really think debating either interpretation can be fruitful.

I think you and I both believe God continues to work supernaturally to draw believers (in the heart of sinners) and they are supernaturally reborn. This is supernatural because it is beyond the capability of natural man by natural means.

That said, do you believe God works supernaturally in more outward ways (similar to tongues, dreams, healing apart from medical measures, casting out demons, etc)?

I am asking as there seems to be a divide larger than just sign gifts and am interested in your take on the topic.

 

[Iconoclast]

I believe what the mainstream confessional churches have believed;

I see several areas of concern which I believe are vital.

1] sufficiency of scriptures

2] closed canon

3]purpose of miracles throughout the bible

4]episodes of satanic, demonic opposition, where ,when ,and why

5]APOSTOLIC UNIQUENESS

6] JESUS, OUR FULL FINAL PROPHET

I do not discount 1 cor13:8-10, but it is not strong enough to stand on it's own. I use that as a secondary text.[that which is partial,we know in part,we prophesy in part...until that which is perfect[ complete] comes.

My main position is the biblical teaching of Jesus primarily in jn.14, 15,16, 17.....the whole book of Acts, Revelation.

I am driving from NY. to Flagstaff Arz......need to be there by 9amSunday....Am currently just east of Oklahoma City, so still have 911 miles to go
After I get that done, I will have a few more minutes to go into detail.

I have made it my business to know and listen to most of the "big name" pentecostal teachers...have heard most of the heresies, been in several "meetings" know all the verses they offer. It just is not so.
Maybe I can pull up things I have posted elsewhere for now;

 

[Iconoclast]

I had posted thisawhile ago

tim 3;
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

"because something is in the bible does not mean it was spoken to YOU."

While all 66 books are for all Christians to read and study, not every verse was spoken to us directly for us to obey....
Let's look at this passage;

Jn16:
16 These things have I spoken unto you,

Here Jesus is speaking directly to the Apostles as the context demands


that ye should not be offended.

2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.

3 And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor me.

4 But these things have I told you, that when the time shall come, ye may remember that I told you of them. And these things I said not unto you at the beginning, because I was with you.


****H2S....you and Ron were not there with Jesus [at the beginning]as he describes,
This passage is speaking only to them at that time!
Earlier in jn15:
27 And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.

We can read and understand that the Apostles were promised things that we are not promised. Do we benefit from understanding the passage...sure, but that does not mean it was not given to them directly.

5 But now I go my way to him that sent me; and none of you asketh me, Whither goest thou?

6 But because I have said these things unto you, sorrow hath filled your heart.

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;

10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;

11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come,
he will guide you into all truth
: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak:
and he will shew you things to come.

14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

[QUOTE]How convenient for you to determine which scripture is applicable to us and which one isn't.[/QUOTE]

Biblical teachers do determine which scripture is applicable and which are not.If you left your stories and daydreams and looked more carefully at scripture, you could find the same truths.
That you turn away from biblical teachers and turn to your imagined experiences is why you are not understanding this verse.

1. I wonder what we would do without your constant correction of which scripture applies and which doesn't.
   
   I do not wonder about it, at all. You would continue on sharing feelings, emotional ideas, daydreams, supposed stories, alleged angelic visitations appearing outside of bar rooms early in the morning, comparing yourselves with yourselves, rather than having a reverence for the word of God.

 

[Iconoclast]

1]I believe the scriptures on this
2]Scripture teaches the Apostles were unique
3] Jesus taught they would be guided into all truth.
4] The Apostles taught we should listen to their word.
5]The historic believers did.
6]there were no additional Apostles in History
7]we are told to believe scripture, not people relating personal experiences
The first century church had the Apostles and Prophets. Those gifts were manifested in those churches,people spoke in other languages, some were healed, as revelation was not complete.
Revelatory gifts ceased, service gifts continue.
1 tim, and titus regulate church structure, church life till the end, the last day.
Our main function is the gospel going worldwide.
We win In Jesus,that is what we preach and teach in all the world


No one believes because of what they see.
They only believe when the Holy Spirit gives them a new heart.Ezk36:25-27.
Thousands saw Jesus,healings, and did not believe.


Completely false.
No one believes without a new heart. Faith comes by HEARING AND HEARING BY THE WORD OF GOD.
these exaggerated claims of people like Bonnke,and others feed the error.
This made-up idea of "moving" in the supernatural, miracles, gifts, visions is false. The Spirit indwelling Christians who preach and teach the word are used.
The power of God is the unseen work of the Spirit quickening the word that had already been confirmed by Apostolic sign gifts.

 

[AustinC]

I had posted thisawhile ago

tim 3;
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

"because something is in the bible does not mean it was spoken to YOU."

While all 66 books are for all Christians to read and study, not every verse was spoken to us directly for us to obey....
Let's look at this passage;

Jn16:
16 These things have I spoken unto you,

Here Jesus is speaking directly to the Apostles as the context demands


that ye should not be offended.

2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.

3 And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor me.

4 But these things have I told you, that when the time shall come, ye may remember that I told you of them. And these things I said not unto you at the beginning, because I was with you.


****H2S....you and Ron were not there with Jesus [at the beginning]as he describes,
This passage is speaking only to them at that time!
Earlier in jn15:
27 And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.

We can read and understand that the Apostles were promised things that we are not promised. Do we benefit from understanding the passage...sure, but that does not mean it was not given to them directly.

5 But now I go my way to him that sent me; and none of you asketh me, Whither goest thou?

6 But because I have said these things unto you, sorrow hath filled your heart.

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;

10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;

11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come,
he will guide you into all truth
: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak:
and he will shew you things to come.

14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

[QUOTE]How convenient for you to determine which scripture is applicable to us and which one isn't.

Biblical teachers do determine which scripture is applicable and which are not.If you left your stories and daydreams and looked more carefully at scripture, you could find the same truths.
That you turn away from biblical teachers and turn to your imagined experiences is why you are not understanding this verse.

1. I wonder what we would do without your constant correction of which scripture applies and which doesn't.
   
   I do not wonder about it, at all. You would continue on sharing feelings, emotional ideas, daydreams, supposed stories, alleged angelic visitations appearing outside of bar rooms early in the morning, comparing yourselves with yourselves, rather than having a reverence for the word of God.

[/QUOTE]Acts 21:8-12

On the next day we departed and came to Caesarea, and we entered the house of Philip the evangelist, who was one of the seven, and stayed with him. He had four unmarried daughters, who prophesied. While we were staying for many days, a prophet named Agabus came down from Judea. And coming to us, he took Paul’s belt and bound his own feet and hands and said, “Thus says the Holy Spirit, ‘This is how the Jews at Jerusalem will bind the man who owns this belt and deliver him into the hands of the Gentiles.’” When we heard this, we and the people there urged him not to go up to Jerusalem.

 

[Iconoclast]

John 20:25.

But looks like you have missed what Jesus said;
29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.


[

How is a non believer supposed to accept the word of salvation without it's accompanying power from on high via the Holy Spirit?
Good question.]

Natural men cannot believe God or His word.The power of God enables an unsaved person to believe by giving them a new heart, The unseen supernatural work of the Spirit.

 

[Iconoclast]

Those gifts were temporary to credential the Apostles and Prophets as spokesmen for God, in completeing the revelation we need.,as Jesus explained to THEM;
Watch;

JOHN14:
25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.

Jesus was speaking to them face to face.

26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name,
he shall teach you all things,
and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

This was promised to THEM firsthand so we would get all Jesus intended for us to know.

John15:
26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

27 And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.

Jn16:
16 These things have I spoken unto you, that ye should not be offended.

2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.

3 And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor me.

4 But these things have I told you, that when the time shall come, ye may remember that I told you of them. And these things I said not unto you at the beginning, because I was with you.

Only the Apostles;

Jn16:

12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come,
: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.


acts4;
25 Who by the mouth of thy servant David hast said, Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things?

26 The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.

27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,

28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.

29 And now, Lord, behold their threatenings: and grant unto thy servants, that with all boldness they may speak thy word,

30 By stretching forth thine hand to heal; and that signs and wonders may be done by the name of thy holy child Jesus.

31 And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness.

32 And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common.

33 And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all.
acts5
12 And by the hands of the apostles were many signs and wonders wrought among the people; (and they were all with one accord in Solomon's porch.

13 And of the rest durst no man join himself to them: but the people magnified them.

14 And believers were the more added to the Lord, multitudes both of men and women.)

15 Insomuch that they brought forth the sick into the streets, and laid them on beds and couches, that at the least the shadow of Peter passing by might overshadow some of them.

16 There came also a multitude out of the cities round about unto Jerusalem, bringing sick folks, and them which were vexed with unclean spirits: and they were healed every one.

 

[Iconoclast]

From Pastor Josh Boice;
Although we have a sufficient guide to life and worship in the pages of Scripture, it’s a common thing to hear people claiming to talk with God on their back porch or to have revelatory and prophetic dreams where God audibly talks directly with them. In fact, sadly is the case that evangelicals have birthed a new genre of literature in recent years known as “Heavenly Tourism” whereby people claim to have traveled to heaven for a brief encounter only to return after a near death experience to write down their story in a book. These books sell like hotcakes and eventually become movies. The success of these heavenly tourism books points to a deeper issue within evangelicalism. It reveals a lack of confidence in the sufficiency of Scripture. Is God’s Word not enough for us?
The message of Dana Coverstone might be attractive to a culture that openly rejects the Bible and is consumed with a love for mysticism fueled by postmodernism, but it’s an assault upon the sufficiency of God’s Word.

 

[Iconoclast]

It is like what happened in Jeremiah's day;

31 Behold, I am against the prophets, saith the Lord, that use their tongues, and say, He saith.

32 Behold, I am against them that prophesy false dreams, saith the Lord, and do tell them, and cause my people to err by their lies, and by their lightness; yet I sent them not, nor commanded them: therefore they shall not profit this people at all, saith the Lord.

 

[Iconoclast]

Christian Fiction, Sci fi,make believe...

We live in a day when people have turned from truth to fables so it should not be a surprise that some even on message boards have been deceived into such false ideas.

No one on this board has:

1]traveled to heaven and back

2]Had God-given visions

3]speak or pray in tongues

4]raised the dead

5]received a postcard from "Luke"

6] had any contact with Apostles

7] seen the Virgin Mary

8] been given visions

9] "move" in the gifts

10] seen demons flying around in church

11] seen demons chasing squirrels in their attic

12] bound satan

13] spoken rhema words

14] received a "double portion"

15] detecting auras

16] believing God for a miracle

17] been "slain in the Spirit"

18] name it and claim it

19 ] and of course claiming the old standby "the anointing breaks the yoke"

20]Had bouts of "holy laughter"

These and other such fabrications are offered as a poor substitute for the faith ONCE GIVEN TO THE SAINTS
Many claim these and more but need to examine their claims in light of scripture, not claim their experiences trump scripture.

 

[Salty]

Six hour warning
This thread will be closed no sooner than 7 am EST (Sat) / 4 am PST

 

[1689Dave]

You should show the scripture that says Spiritual gifts are ONLY given by an Apostle and laying on of hands. You need to prove your assertion before claiming someone else is “crippled” in their Bible understanding.

peace to you

“And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,” Acts 8:18 (KJV 1900)

“For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end you may be established;” Romans 1:11 (KJV 1900)

“Long time therefore abode they speaking boldly in the Lord, which gave testimony unto the word of his grace, and granted signs and wonders to be done by their hands.” Acts 14:3 (KJV 1900)

“Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.” 2 Corinthians 12:12 (KJV 1900)

“Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.” Romans 15:19 (KJV 1900)

“And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.” Acts 2:43 (KJV 1900)

“Long time therefore abode they speaking boldly in the Lord, which gave testimony unto the word of his grace, and granted signs and wonders to be done by their hands.” Acts 14:3 (KJV 1900)

“Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.” 2 Corinthians 12:12 (KJV 1900)

“God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?” Hebrews 2:4 (KJV 1900)

You can prove this wrong by raising at least one dead person proving Pentecostals are Apostles too.

 

[1689Dave]

I just refer you to those 2 exceptions that you found in scripture.

But if you want scripture to prove otherwise.. okay.

Romans 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; 9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

No laying of hands there.

The Lord's hand is not short that He needs an apostle to lay hands to save someone when they finally do call on Him to be saved.

Kind of like how some that err say you have to be water baptized to receive the Holy Ghost. Not.

You kind of have to weigh how you are applying scripture from Acts because scripture in the N.T. does not limit salvation by only of the laying on of the Apostles' hands when by one of your 2 exception; believing in Jesus Christ is how we are saved.

Even Jesus explained to Nicodemus that when one is born again, you do not know where it is coming from or where it is going; hence no outward sign when one is saved, but when & how is after His ascension which is after His crucifixion that by believing in Him is how we are saved and hence born again.

John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. 9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?...13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Romans 10:8? This passage is nothing more than a witchcraft-type chant many think they can recite. Using it to force God into saving them. It has nothing to do with the gifts of the Spirit that came only through an Apostle's hands.

God must save you, you cannot save yourself. And if he saves you, you will speak daily according to Romans 10:8

 

[JonC]

I believe what the mainstream confessional churches have believed;

I see several areas of concern which I believe are vital.

1] sufficiency of scriptures

2] closed canon

3]purpose of miracles throughout the bible

4]episodes of satanic, demonic opposition, where ,when ,and why

5]APOSTOLIC UNIQUENESS

6] JESUS, OUR FULL FINAL PROPHET

I do not discount 1 cor13:8-10, but it is not strong enough to stand on it's own. I use that as a secondary text.[that which is partial,we know in part,we prophesy in part...until that which is perfect[ complete] comes.

My main position is the biblical teaching of Jesus primarily in jn.14, 15,16, 17.....the whole book of Acts, Revelation.

I am driving from NY. to Flagstaff Arz......need to be there by 9amSunday....Am currently just east of Oklahoma City, so still have 911 miles to go
After I get that done, I will have a few more minutes to go into detail.

I have made it my business to know and listen to most of the "big name" pentecostal teachers...have heard most of the heresies, been in several "meetings" know all the verses they offer. It just is not so.
Maybe I can pull up things I have posted elsewhere for now;

Thank you for your reply.

I also believe in the sufficiency of Scripturr and share your concerns with the charismatic movement. I recall a video of a preacher clucking like a chicken.

Unlike you I have not listened and studied the message of pentecostal preachers (other than seeing some on TV for a few moments). So I cannot speak much about the movement.

I do respect John Piper (although he is not a pentecostal) and Gordon Fee (who is). But I have not studied the movement.

I take it you do not believe the accounts of men being led to the gospel via dreams, or Christians being supernaturally heald of a sickness....things like that. Please correct me if I have misunderstood (I am taking this from your reply, but do not want to assume as I am not strictly dealing with the pentecostals).

Also, what about anointing the sick with oil and laying on hands (I have wondered about that passage)?

 

[Hark]

Agreed, this is definitely not an exact replica of the Pentecost experience. However, the conversations seem to have given God glory.

Good question regarding how they realized they were hearing in their native language. I wonder how many conversations they had before they made the discovery. Even with these questions, I believe this to be a real supernatural experience. Glad you ask questions, as they help us to be critical.

I still say it is dubious on account that this story has God working a miracle today that makes you wonder why it was not done in that way anywhere in the N.T.? That story of that method would make God look like He should have done better than how He had been doing it in the N.T. especially in church where everybody was speaking a different language but they would never know it. There would be no need for a system for 2 or 3 to speak in tongue and another interpret if they could do that back then that this story seems to be saying God did today.

Even in Acts 2, they would never realize the disciples were speaking in their native tongue just as His disciples would never realized the other was speaking in a foreign tongue but their own. No one would know they were speaking in God's gift of tongues. That story would testify that there would be no need for God's gift of tongues.

Some believers do fake tongues to fit in by uttering gibberish nonsense of those that speak it as pagan's tongues yet know it not.

And honest believers really thought they were interpreting tongues by guessing the gist or feel of what is being said in that gibberish nonsense and not God's real gift of tongues as a foreign language.

And even some lie saying they can speak in tongues & interpret that tongue spoken at the same time which indicates that they know the other language they are speaking. It would be an appearance of a false witness as well as providing opportunities for deception for why God would not operate in that way.

So it is not improbable that one of the 2 men were lying about not knowing English or the other one that foreign language.

So it goes to who said the story and what are they affiliated with in how that story would attract saved believers in getting to know them & the theology of the church they attend as if God is working miracles by their members in that church to draw them to it.

Which can be drawn to apostasy in giving another calling of seeking to receive the Holy Spirit apart from salvation for that kind of tongue rather than to Jesus Christ in growing in the knowledge of Him.

The affiliation may escape me, but the story is dubious for why I suspect its usage for, but cannot prove other than that it is not Biblical nor found in scripture as such

 

[Iconoclast]

Thank you for your reply.

I also believe in the sufficiency of Scripturr and share your concerns with the charismatic movement. I recall a video of a preacher clucking like a chicken.

Unlike you I have not listened and studied the message of pentecostal preachers (other than seeing some on TV for a few moments). So I cannot speak much about the movement.

I do respect John Piper (although he is not a pentecostal) and Gordon Fee (who is). But I have not studied the movement.

I take it you do not believe the accounts of men being led to the gospel via dreams, or Christians being supernaturally heald of a sickness....things like that. Please correct me if I have misunderstood (I am taking this from your reply, but do not want to assume as I am not strictly dealing with the pentecostals).

Also, what about anointing the sick with oil and laying on hands (I have wondered about that passage)?

My wife had been healed and answer the prayer sort of a long story so I believe God is supernatural I believe God can heal one he desires to heal I believe God could also allow someone to get sick and die from sickness .
It was not a sign gift or anything related to Pentecost.le or anything like that it was straight out answer to prayer. Now as far as John Piper and some of these other guys Sam storms about 4 or 5 guys that I know of in the main stream they allow for what they say you don't could be might be somewhere could be gifts of the spirit period from what I understand John Piper does not claim any specific gift. So the idea of leaving the door open and A-day when is all kind of pentecostal error gone rampant I don't support at all so I like John Piper would certain things but hes too much of a wild card is not one of my go to guys

 

[Salty]

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