Where does this fit in your theology?

[SavedByGrace]

Many are healed from psychosomatic illnesses when their sins are forgiven. But try to raise the dead if the gifts are for today. Religious affiliation and psychiatric disorder among Protestant baby boomers - PubMed

Notice the high level of mental problems in Pentecostalism. I've never seen a Baptist go home after church and douse themselves with gasoline and light a match. But it happened not too long ago in a local Pentecostal church.

Ho hum!

 

[SavedByGrace]

Sorry! I have no idea what you are saying here!?

Not a lot as he is reformed don't expect much

 

[1689Dave]

Ho hum!

It's documented insanity by the government in those circles.

 

[1689Dave]

Sorry! I have no idea what you are saying here!?

What dog do you have in the fight? State your position.

 

[1689Dave]

What is the point? Since your theology prevents the Supernatural Working of the Holy Spirit

My life is an ongoing miracle. Including my health. No Doctor visits since the 1980s. And plenty of fruit from the Holy Spirit.

 

[Hark]

The OP is about the supernatural enabling of Holy Spirit to proclaim the gospel in a known language, but unknown to the speaker.

From what the story in the OP conveyed, it was everyday conversation between 2 Christians at a Christian refugee camp supposedly in their own native language to each other but understood the other in their own language.

That is consistent with the biblical accounts of “tongues” in Acts.

peace to you

God's people in Acts knew they were speaking a foreign language that they did not know. That is why Paul says in 1 Corinthians 14:12-14 that a tongue speaker should pray that someone will interpret that tongue being manifested by the Holy Spirit in him, because until someone does interpret that tongue, that tongue is unfruitful as the tongue speaker cannot understand it.

So this story about understanding what the other person is saying, is not really the Biblical account of speaking in tongues in Acts or the entire N.T. when they are both reported as speaking in their own native tongue but understanding the other in their own tongue.

The story conveys the interpretation of tongue of the other rather than speaking in tongues, but there is no such direct message as testifying to such an account in the Bible. Indeed, there would be no need for the gift of tongues to speak the other language other than to unbelievers, BUT yet tongues were being spoken in the church at Corinth and on that day of Pentecost among believers for why Paul had an order set up to have 2 or 3 speak in tongues while another interpret as they were all believers. Is this for the sake of unbelieving visitors in that church? But we have no scripture testifying to the effect of interpretation of tongues between Christian foreigners.

The story in the OP is not applicable to how you seem to think. It is dubious and not found as such in the Bible.

So it goes to point why that story is being shared; to cite something incredible to what they represent as a church? Because not everything representing by a church represents Him since apostasy abounds in the churches.

 

[Hark]

Paul said they did not speak to men. You are ill-informed.

They did not speak to men that understood it but God understands what is being spoken. That is to clarify that 1 Corinthians 14:2 is about the gift of tongue which is not understood by the tongue speaker, though they know they are speaking a foreign tongue, but do not know what kind of foreign tongue or what is being said, but God does.

It is not about the tongue speaker speaking as if TO God, but God understands what is said. The tongue speaker is speaking TO men because in the spirit, he speaks mysteries. Since there are no mysteries to God and what he is saying is a mystery to himself, then those who hear it not in their native tongue as well.. is a mystery to them.

This is why the gift of prophesy is the best gift of all because one can edify the body of believers right away as well as themselves rather than wait for an interpretation from another before the tongue speaker can understand it to be edified and thus fruitful.

 

[1689Dave]

They did not speak to men that understood it but God understands what is being spoken. That is to clarify that 1 Corinthians 14:2 is about the gift of tongue which is not understood by the tongue speaker, though they know they are speaking a foreign tongue, but do not know what kind of foreign tongue or what is being said, but God does.

It is not about the tongue speaker speaking as if TO God, but God understands what is said. The tongue speaker is speaking TO men because in the spirit, he speaks mysteries. Since there are no mysteries to God and what he is saying is a mystery to himself, then those who hear it not in their native tongue as well.. is a mystery to them.

This is why the gift of prophesy is the best gift of all because one can edify the body of believers right away as well as themselves rather than wait for an interpretation from another before the tongue speaker can understand it to be edified and thus fruitful.

Basically true except scripture (Complete) replaced tongues (they were in part) when scripture became complete (perfect).

 

[Hark]

You don't know the half of it when it comes to today's tongues. From their roots in voodoo to their being learned from false teachers

Such tongue are associated with an apostate calling of seeking to receive the Holy Spirit again apart from salvation with evidence of tongues or by a sign of tongues for already saved believers to seek after.

when in Acts they were spontaneous and the speakers knew what they were saying.

Only when it is interpreted. They knew they were speaking some unknown language of men but until interpreted, they cannot understand it for that tongue to be fruitful to themselves.

1 Corinthians 14:12 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church. 13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret. 14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

Some have misapplied Paul's words for use of tongues in private use as if the Holy Spirit is praying out loud His own intercessions which is also false per John 16:13 but it is Paul's spirit that is praying that someone will interpret that tongue that is being manifested by the Holy Spirit because he wants to understand what is said.

Also, they only came through an Apostle's hands beyond the two outpourings.

Only came through an Apostle's hands beyond the two outpourings? Unless Paul said that or any of the other apostles, that is an assumption not confirmed by scripture, but can be reproved by scripture.

Hebrews 11:1.Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.

Galatians 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith........26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

How would the apostles or Paul move on from church planting if only an apostle can be the means for which the gift of tongue can come? Or was that what you had meant? The Holy Spirit with tongues? Then I would have to disagree since tongues are not to serve as a sign to believers that they are saved or that they have received the Holy Spirit at their salvation. Tongues are to serve as a sign or proof to unbelievers.

1 Corinthians 14:20 Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men. 21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. 22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

Feel free to clarify but I did include reproof in case you meant the worse.

 

[Hark]

Basically true except scripture (Complete) replaced tongues (they were in part) when scripture became complete (perfect).

God providing the written scripture... that does not mean discerning of spirits has ceased any more than the gift of tongues has ceased when written scripture is not available for edification or outreach ministry in foreign places.

But yes, when it comes to edification in the churches, when written scripture is available and all speak the same language... the Lord is not vain to have the Holy Spirit serve Him in a round about way to edify the body of believers with tongues & interpretation of tongues when the written scripture will do.

 

[Iconoclast]

I figured as much. Fortunately, this is not a "salvation" issue. While the Scriptures are inspired, our views and interpretations of them are not. I totally respect your views. Our unity is in Christ, not tongues.

I appreciate that we can discuss these things in a forum such as this .
when I get a chance get at my laptop I will make more of a case on a separate thread for what I'm saying here

 

[Lodic]

I appreciate that we can discuss these things in a forum such as this .
when I get a chance get at my laptop I will make more of a case on a separate thread for what I'm saying here

Likewise, I appreciate the way we can have a civil discussion about our different views. Different views divide Christians far too often, which must sadden our Lord. I look forward to talking to you in greater detail. Blessings upon you and your household, Brother.

 

[Hark]

I figured as much. Fortunately, this is not a "salvation" issue. While the Scriptures are inspired, our views and interpretations of them are not. I totally respect your views. Our unity is in Christ, not tongues.

I agree that it is not a salvation issue and I agree that our unity is in Christ, but I point out that when we are not all speaking the same thing nor holding to the same judgment, is where modern day tongue speakers divide the body of Christ, because modern day tongues is usually associated with having another baptism of the Holy Ghost with evidence of tongues apart from salvation moment. That means they divide themselves from this testimony that we are all supposed to share below as they claim another baptism and thus another drink of the One Spirit.

1 Corinthians 12:12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. 13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. 14 For the body is not one member, but many.

Proof that tongues was never meant for private use is here in the following verses below.

1 Corinthians 12:19 And if they were all one member, where were the body? 20 But now are they many members, yet but one body. 21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.

So believers are reading in between the lines in 1 Corinthians 14 chapter as if tongues has all those benefits of self edification, the Spirit praying to God, giving thanks, & worship . and yet for all those supposed benefits, they do not know what benefit is being done... and yet they just read like they have no need of anyone in the body of Christ as they can do it all by tongues.

So tongues is an apostate issue because it departs from the faith in Jesus Christ when tongues is gained by another calling.

 

[Salty]

Not sure if these verses have been mentioned - (if so, my apologies)

What is the purpose of tongues:
I Corinthians 14:22

And what else did Paul say about speaking in tongues

I Cor 14: 19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.

I have always said that those 5 words would be:
Ye Must Be Born Again !

 

[Hark]

Not sure if these verses have been mentioned - (if so, my apologies)

What is the purpose of tongues:
I Corinthians 14:22

Tongues serve as a sign to unbelievers.

But in the body of Christ, tongues with interpretation from another serve the body of Christ for edifying the saints along with that tongue speaker & not just preach the gospel in outreach ministry or to unbelievers visiting the church..

And what else did Paul say about speaking in tongues

I Cor 14: 19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.

I have always said that those 5 words would be:
Ye Must Be Born Again !

Although apt, those five known words by Paul was his preference because he knew what was being said by him thru the Holy Spirit in him rather than waiting for interpretation from another for a thousand words in tongues to understand what was said by the Holy Spirit in him.

 

[AustinC]

Then you can't be reformed or Calvinistic

Untrue

 

[1689Dave]

God providing the written scripture... that does not mean discerning of spirits has ceased any more than the gift of tongues has ceased when written scripture is not available for edification or outreach ministry in foreign places.

But yes, when it comes to edification in the churches, when written scripture is available and all speak the same language... the Lord is not vain to have the Holy Spirit serve Him in a round about way to edify the body of believers with tongues & interpretation of tongues when the written scripture will do.

Only the 12 Apostles could speak in tongues along with those they laid hands on. Two exceptions are the Jewish outpouring at Pentecost and the gentile outpouring 7 years later at Cornelius' house.

You cannot support more than that with scripture.

 

[1689Dave]

Such tongue are associated with an apostate calling of seeking to receive the Holy Spirit again apart from salvation with evidence of tongues or by a sign of tongues for already saved believers to seek after.



Only when it is interpreted. They knew they were speaking some unknown language of men but until interpreted, they cannot understand it for that tongue to be fruitful to themselves.

1 Corinthians 14:12 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church. 13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret. 14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

Some have misapplied Paul's words for use of tongues in private use as if the Holy Spirit is praying out loud His own intercessions which is also false per John 16:13 but it is Paul's spirit that is praying that someone will interpret that tongue that is being manifested by the Holy Spirit because he wants to understand what is said.



Only came through an Apostle's hands beyond the two outpourings? Unless Paul said that or any of the other apostles, that is an assumption not confirmed by scripture, but can be reproved by scripture.

Hebrews 11:1.Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.

Galatians 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith........26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

How would the apostles or Paul move on from church planting if only an apostle can be the means for which the gift of tongue can come? Or was that what you had meant? The Holy Spirit with tongues? Then I would have to disagree since tongues are not to serve as a sign to believers that they are saved or that they have received the Holy Spirit at their salvation. Tongues are to serve as a sign or proof to unbelievers.

1 Corinthians 14:20 Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men. 21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. 22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

Feel free to clarify but I did include reproof in case you meant the worse.

Paul said the basis for edification is knowing what is said. He said tongue speakers edified themselves. That is, they knew what they were saying along with those hearing their interpretation. This proves how false today's "tongues" are.

 

[SavedByGrace]

Only the 12 Apostles could speak in tongues along with those they laid hands on. Two exceptions are the Jewish outpouring at Pentecost and the gentile outpouring 7 years later at Cornelius' house.

You cannot support more than that with scripture.

so the Church at Corinth does not count? your theology is SO unbiblical!

 

[Salty]

ADMIN NOTICE: Lets stop this bickering back and forth.
If you disagree with someones doctrine - just so state and leave it at that.
We dont need all this unnecessary name calling -
So lets chill out a bit.