Where in the Bible is youth ministry?

[ReformedBaptist]

My "intentions" were to show you that you call "youth ministry" a non-biblical concept...your reasoning: "It's not mentioned in the Bible." Then, you invoke a phrase that is also not mentioned in the Bible. That's an inconsistency...and I just wanted to point it out.



So very interesting you would say that....since I don't see any post in which I've made untrue conclusions or judgements about you. Perhaps if you wish to accuse me of such, you could show examples.

Why are you so defensive?

I am not defensive my friend. But if you wish to discuss the validity of the regulative principle I am glad to discuss that, as I believe it is very, very biblical principle.

So, if you wish to know which judgment you have made that is untrue, one would be about me being defensive.

When I mentioned before the regulative principle it was just a statement of fact. Of course, I have not always as a Christian referred to it as such, but I have always believed that it is the Scriptures (and of course being the Word of God, God) that prescribes to man how He should be worshipped, not man that may prescribe to God how he will worship Him. The Westminster says it best.

The light of nature showeth that there is a God, who hath lordship and sovereignty over all, is good, and doth good unto all, and is therefore to be feared, loved, praised, called upon, trusted in, and served, with all the heart, and with all the soul, and with all the might.[1] But the acceptable way of worshiping the true God is instituted by himself, and so limited by his own revealed will, that he may not be worshiped according to the imaginations and devices of men, or the suggestions of Satan, under any visible representation, or any other way not prescribed in the Holy Scripture.[2]

1. Rom. 1:20; Psa. 19:1-4a; 50:6; 86:8-10; 89:5-7; 95:1-6; 97:6; 104:1-35; 145:9-12; Acts 14:17; Deut. 6:4-5
2. Deut. 4:15-20; 12:32; Matt. 4:9-10; 15:9; Acts 17:23-25; Exod. 20:4-6, John 4:23-24; Col. 2:18-23

 

[dan e.]

When I mentioned before the regulative principle it was just a statement of fact. Of course, I have not always as a Christian referred to it as such, but I have always believed that it is the Scriptures (and of course being the Word of God, God) that prescribes to man how He should be worshipped, not man that may prescribe to God how he will worship Him. The Westminster says it best.

But not all scripture is "prescription"....but much of it is description.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Then what is your problem with a youth pastor?

How so? Using your argument, if fathers and mothers were doing their jobs as Christian parents, any supplement by the senior pastor on Sunday moorning would be irrelevant. You see, you can't make that dichotomy stand up. The Bible commands the that local church be the repository for the truth and be constantly teaching and discipling people. In that context, youth ministry is completely warranted as a teaching and discipling function of the local church.

Again, the youth pastor in the churches in which I was a part of were not elders. So my question remains: Where is this pastoralship/office found in the NT? If they are not an elder, then what are they?

I am not seeing the dichotomy your talking about. THe Bible gives me clear instruction concerning the raising of my family and about the church and its role in our lives. An elders role is clearly spelled out in Scripture, and I love the assembly of the saints.

I have been asking for biblical support for a youth ministry, with a separate "youth pastor" who is not an elder of the assembly.

 

[dan e.]

I think viewing the Bible like this leads to a lot of bad hermeneutics....such as this subject we are talking about, and your reasoning for no youth pastor.

The Bible is not an instruction manual. It is mostly written in narrative form, which is why every answer in life is not given, and every area of life not prescribed how to handle.

We live by the Spirit, which of course shouldn't contradict the message of the Bible, but also means that the things we do may not specifically be discussed in it either.

 

[dan e.]

I have been asking for biblical support for a youth ministry, with a separate "youth pastor" who is not an elder of the assembly.

This sounds like a rarity. I've never run across a church where a youth pastor is not one of the elders of the church. But if we use your argument to it's logical conclusion...that if parents were doing their jobs correctly, then why would teenagers even need to be in church at all? Forget about the youth pastor, why would they need a pastor at all?!

 

[Pastor Larry]

Again, the youth pastor in the churches in which I was a part of were not elders.

Sounds like your church was set up wrong. All pastors are elders, by definition. However, not all teachers are elders.

If they are not an elder, then what are they?

I don't know. They could be considered a deacon, a teacher, both of which clearly exist in the NT and both of which have responsibility to teach others.

I am not seeing the dichotomy your talking about. THe Bible gives me clear instruction concerning the raising of my family and about the church and its role in our lives. An elders role is clearly spelled out in Scripture, and I love the assembly of the saints.

Okay. Then I am not sure what your problem with a youth pastor is. He could be an elder. But he could also be a teacher using his teaching gifts to make disciples. I see no problem with either in the NT. Clearly, not all teachers are pastors, but all pastors are teachers.

I have been asking for biblical support for a youth ministry, with a separate "youth pastor" who is not an elder of the assembly.

"Make disciples" seems all the support we need. What else are you looking for? For some reason I am unclear about, you seem to object to there being teachers in the church who are not elders. Do you have Sunday School or Adult Bible study teachers who aren't elders? Do you have teachers for the elementary school who aren't elders? If so, then why do you object to having a teacher for the high school who isn't an elder?

 

[ReformedBaptist]

I think viewing the Bible like this leads to a lot of bad hermeneutics....such as this subject we are talking about, and your reasoning for no youth pastor.

The Bible is not an instruction manual. It is mostly written in narrative form, which is why every answer in life is not given, and every area of life not prescribed how to handle.

We live by the Spirit, which of course shouldn't contradict the message of the Bible, but also means that the things we do may not specifically be discussed in it either.

Well, this is the primary area where we disagree then, and why we conclude differently. I believe the Scriptures are wholly sufficient for everything.

 

[dan e.]

Well, this is the primary area where we disagree then, and why we conclude differently. I believe the Scriptures are wholly sufficient for everything.

My understanding of the Bible is not being 100% prescription on life does not mean I don't think that the Bible is any less sufficient than you.

You are reading/understanding the Bible as if it was written as an instruction manual....but it was not. If it was, don't you think it would be formatted a little differently? That God would spare us the long stories on specific individuals and just tell us what we need to know?

 

[Dale-c]

Well, this is the primary area where we disagree then, and why we conclude differently. I believe the Scriptures are wholly sufficient for everything.

At least for everything we need to know.

This is why it is so important to separate elements from circumstances in worship.

Why not have a youth pastor? Because the Bible does tell us the offices of the church and does not include a youth pastor.
To add one is to add to what God has commanded.
This is the realm of positive law.

What about the pastors tie?
Should it be blue or red?
Should the pastor not wear a tie at all?
This is all circumstancial.

There is no biblical command to wear certain clothe to church so we are at freedom to do whatever i not prohibited.

It is a simple difference between positive and negative law.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Why not have a youth pastor? Because the Bible does tell us the offices of the church and does not include a youth pastor.
To add one is to add to what God has commanded.

No, not really. The youth pastor could be considered a pastor (in which case he would be one of several, a plurality of elders), or he could be considered a teacher. In either case, the Bible teaches that it is acceptable to have such a person.

You are reading/understanding the Bible as if it was written as an instruction manual....but it was not.

I think, Dan, that this is a bit of a misunderstanding of the regulative principle. The RP says that God has regulated how we worship. It does not say that the Bible is 100% prescriptive, or that the Bible explicitly and directly addresses every area of life. It is commonly used in reference to worship, and distinguishes between the elements of worship (those things which God requires in worship) and the circumstances of worship.

Personally, I am not sure that the RP is relevant to a discussion of youth pastors, but even it if were, I think a youth pastor is justified by the clear teaching of the NT that we should be making disciples, and that those with the gift of teaching should be using their gift to teach others.

 

[dan e.]

I think, Dan, that this is a bit of a misunderstanding of the regulative principle. The RP says that God has regulated how we worship. It does not say that the Bible is 100% prescriptive, or that the Bible explicitly and directly addresses every area of life. It is commonly used in reference to worship, and distinguishes between the elements of worship (those things which God requires in worship) and the circumstances of worship.

Okay, I see.

Thanks for the clarification.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Sounds like your church was set up wrong. All pastors are elders, by definition. However, not all teachers are elders.

I don't know. They could be considered a deacon, a teacher, both of which clearly exist in the NT and both of which have responsibility to teach others.

Okay. Then I am not sure what your problem with a youth pastor is. He could be an elder. But he could also be a teacher using his teaching gifts to make disciples. I see no problem with either in the NT. Clearly, not all teachers are pastors, but all pastors are teachers.

"Make disciples" seems all the support we need. What else are you looking for? For some reason I am unclear about, you seem to object to there being teachers in the church who are not elders. Do you have Sunday School or Adult Bible study teachers who aren't elders? Do you have teachers for the elementary school who aren't elders? If so, then why do you object to having a teacher for the high school who isn't an elder?

If making disciples is support, then what is insufficient about the teaching/preaching pulpit ministry for youth? Of course I have no problem with someone teaching that isn't an elder. It is not the ministry of teaching to young people I am questioning. It's the segregation of youth to a youth pastor I am questioning. Why are churches doing this? How long have churches been doing this?

I have likely not been clear in many of my posts due to time. This post here has been open for awhile with a little typing here and there about the subject.

The subject is a controversial one. I have been on both sides of the issue and, as I mentioned before, lean toward a church not instituting a youth ministry in the sense of segregating the youth from the adults and assinging a role of youth pastor.

When I was a youth pastor I looked into the stats on youth ministry that came from Barna and other places. It is quite a startling thing to learn that generally speaking, youth ministry is highly ineffective. I searched for those stats again, but hit this blog first...

"We are losing the overwhelming majority of our youth by the end of their freshman year in college (75-88% according to Glen Schultz, Kingdom Education, and the 2002 SBC Council on the Family). Less than ten percent of churched teens have a biblical worldview (The Barna Group, Nehemiah Institute Peers Test), and nearly half of all church members are probably not born again (Southern Baptist Journal of Theology, Spring, 2005). The retention rate is not highest among those in youth groups; it is highest among those whose parents (particularly fathers) actually disciple them."

The author makes the same points I have been trying to make. Perhaps better questions are:

Is youth minitry being used to replace and/or supplement the lack of biblical training by the parents in the home? If so, is youth ministry then the answer, or is focusing on parents the answer?

Are we really fullfilling the command to make disciples if the fathers and mothers are not disciples and disciple-makers of their children?

Is youth ministry actually doing more harm than good if it does not at least focus on full family integration for the dicipleship of our young people?

 

[Pastor Larry]

If making disciples is support, then what is insufficient about the teaching/preaching pulpit ministry for youth?

Nothing. But what then is insufficient about the pulpit ministry instead of nurseries, graded SS classes, small group Bible studies, and the like? I would argue nothing. The fact that do a second thing does not mean that the first is insufficient.

It is not the ministry of teaching to young people I am questioning.

I understand. I guess my struggle is that I have yet to see a good argument against it, if the biblical mandate is being carried out. I have problems when the youth ministry is all fun and games, when the teaching is bad, etc. But none of that has to to be so. A youth ministry can be done rightly.

It's the segregation of youth to a youth pastor I am questioning. Why are churches doing this? How long have churches been doing this?

Churches are doing it, I imagine, because there is a need for people to be taught on their own level in their own life context. The needs of adults are not the same as the needs of teens, or children.

When I was a youth pastor I looked into the stats on youth ministry that came from Barna and other places. It is quite a startling thing to learn that generally speaking, youth ministry is highly ineffective. I searched for those stats again, but hit this blog first...

Barna is not always a good source for accurate statistics. He words his questions in ways that bring bad answers. However, I think youth ministry is "highly ineffective" because of the way it is done, not because there is some inherent problem with youth ministry per se. In fact, youth ministry is probably no more ineffective than any other kind of ministry.

Is youth minitry being used to replace and/or supplement the lack of biblical training by the parents in the home? If so, is youth ministry then the answer, or is focusing on parents the answer?

A home with a godly father is always better than the alternatives. But that is not always the case. Furthermore, having a youth ministry and focusing on the parents need not be set against one another. I think we can do both.

When I was a youth pastor, we had over half of our teens from homes where neither parent attended church. So focusing on the parents would have done no good for the lives of these teens. I don't konw what the longterm results were with that. I am sure there was much wood, hay, and stubble. But hopefully, God was working in some lives to long term benefit for his glory. Only eternity will tell.

Are we really fullfilling the command to make disciples if the fathers and mothers are not disciples and disciple-makers of their children?

We are not fulfilling that command with the fathers and mothers. We can however be fulfilling that command with young people. So again, I think this assumes a false dichotomy.

Is youth ministry actually doing more harm than good if it does not at least focus on full family integration for the dicipleship of our young people?

No. It may not be doing all that it can do, but the bigger problem in youth ministry has to do with a philosophy that we need to give kids a good time with pop music and watered down teaching, with lots of games and pizza.

 

[rbell]

Why not have a youth pastor? Because the Bible does tell us the offices of the church and does not include a youth pastor.
To add one is to add to what God has commanded.

This borders on offensive.

I am a pastor...but in our church, I specialize in ministering to jr. high and high school students and their families. In a church of our size (800 or so, and 150 in their teen years), it is necessary to have a multiplicity of pastors to serve all the people here.

By declaring my ministry unbiblical, Dale, you question my calling to ministry. That is not your place.

 

[TCGreek]

RB, you got me on this one.

As someone said, "We should eliminate our nurseries."

What next?

 

[rbell]

If making disciples is support, then what is insufficient about the teaching/preaching pulpit ministry for youth? Of course I have no problem with someone teaching that isn't an elder. It is not the ministry of teaching to young people I am questioning. It's the segregation of youth to a youth pastor I am questioning. Why are churches doing this? How long have churches been doing this?

The subject is a controversial one. I have been on both sides of the issue and, as I mentioned before, lean toward a church not instituting a youth ministry in the sense of segregating the youth from the adults and assinging a role of youth pastor.

Is youth minitry being used to replace and/or supplement the lack of biblical training by the parents in the home? If so, is youth ministry then the answer, or is focusing on parents the answer?

Are we really fullfilling the command to make disciples if the fathers and mothers are not disciples and disciple-makers of their children?

Is youth ministry actually doing more harm than good if it does not at least focus on full family integration for the dicipleship of our young people?

Now, IMO, you've gotten somewhere good.

We do not in our church seek to segregate. Our students lead in the whole of our church's life and ministry. I do worry about "youth ministry ghettos," and fight against that mentality/end result.

You also make a good point that any effective ministry to kids will also seek to minister to the families. I happen to be SBC, and Richard Ross (a well-known expert on teens and reaching them) is stressing this at every turn.


But we should keep in mind: we are increasingly in a post-Christian culture. Thus, we will reach increasing numbers of kids whose parents have no concept AND no desire for the things of God. And those unique challenges must be met head-on.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

RB, you got me on this one.

As someone said, "We should eliminate our nurseries."

What next?

Our church doesn't have a nursery. lol

 

[dan e.]

It's the segregation of youth to a youth pastor I am questioning. Why are churches doing this? How long have churches been doing this?

Do you have problems with music/worship pastors?

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Do you have problems with music/worship pastors?

We dont have any of those either. lol

 

[TCGreek]

Our church doesn't have a nursery. lol

I got two young ones, and they are at that age.

What am I expected to do if I come to visit your church?