Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
Where do we see the doctrine of free will in Scripture?
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Where Is Free Will?
- Thread starter Reformed1689
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everywhere from Adam. Joshua to Revelations
Adam choosing to eat
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Jos 24:15
And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, chooseyou this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD
Rev 22:17
¶
And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely
Should Liberty review your status?
Adam choosing to eat
,
Jos 24:15
And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, chooseyou this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD
Rev 22:17
¶
And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely
Should Liberty review your status?
Apparently they've looked and can't find it.
it was answered,Apparently they've looked and can't find it.
Can’t compare a pre-fallen Adam’s with ours. It’s apples to dump trucks.
This was given solely to God’s covenant ppl. Their enemies were never told this.
”Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied.”[Matthew 5:6]
Not everyone hungers and thirsts for righteousness as they love their sin too much.
But thanks for playing!
Explain, if you are-able how a decision before I make a bad choices is free will and decisions after make that choice is not free will. Where did Adam get "sin nature"?
This choice from Joshua was to those who had a choice to make the response from "ME and MY house "only includes Joshua's tribe
Jos 24:15
And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD
Rev 22 has is open to all, including those who thirst in Matt 5
free will is everywhere,
choosing men
Exo 17:9
And Moses said unto Joshua, Choose us out men, and go out, fight with Amalek: to morrow I will stand on the top of the hill with the rod of God in mine hand.
making decisions
Pro 3:31
Envy thou not the oppressor, and choose none of his ways.
decisions to serve or not
Phl 1:21
For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.
Phl 1:22
But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not.
Any one can decide
Rev 3:20
Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, andwill sup with him, and he with me.
truly truly SovereignGrace Thou art weighed in the balances, and art found wanting. cant even play your own game
This choice from Joshua was to those who had a choice to make the response from "ME and MY house "only includes Joshua's tribe
Jos 24:15
And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD
Rev 22 has is open to all, including those who thirst in Matt 5
free will is everywhere,
choosing men
Exo 17:9
And Moses said unto Joshua, Choose us out men, and go out, fight with Amalek: to morrow I will stand on the top of the hill with the rod of God in mine hand.
making decisions
Pro 3:31
Envy thou not the oppressor, and choose none of his ways.
decisions to serve or not
Phl 1:21
For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.
Phl 1:22
But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not.
Any one can decide
Rev 3:20
Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, andwill sup with him, and he with me.
truly truly SovereignGrace Thou art weighed in the balances, and art found wanting. cant even play your own game
I am sorry. I had you on ignore and (foolishly) viewed your post. I won’t make that mistake again.
Yet the Calvinist insists that Ezekiel 36:24-32, scripture written directly to Israel, applies to all people.
And 2 Peter 3:9 applies only to the elect.
And the "whosoever believes in Him" in John 3:16 doesn't mean just anyone, it means the people that are already believers!
It seems they can make verses apply to whatever people group they deem necessary to make their theology fit. This is why it's futile to try to discuss things with Calvinists.
Sent from my Pixel 2 XL
You ought to be embarrassed, But you can't ignore truth , But you do make it a little more difficult to post verse you can't twist into lies
How many times have you been shot down yet continue in error? for your own mistaken comfort , put me back on ignore
We have to try, maybe some of them do change but do not post
Dave G
Well-Known Member
Ezekiel 36:26 is first stated in Ezekiel 11:19, of which I happen to believe that it is what some call a "double prophecy".
Not only will He call physical Israel from among the nations and bring them back into the land that He gave to their fathers ( Abraham, Isaac and Jacob ), He will call His spiritual people ( spiritual Israel, the "Israel of God" ) from among the nations ( Acts of the Apostles 2:39 , Romans 9:24, Ephesians 2:11-18, Revelation 5:9, Revelation 7:9 ) at His second coming and bring them back into the land of Israel during the 1,000 year reign, where He shall rule with a rod of iron and they shall rule with Him.
Please read Ezekiel 11:14-21.
To me, it shows the process, from God's perspective, of making a person born again, not just a Jew.
It dovetails with 2 Corinthians 5:17 and many other passages that talk about being born again, born of God.
One cannot see the kingdom of God without being born from above.
It does.
The context of the "us-ward" in verse 9, is the "beloved" from verse 8...not all of mankind as is popularly taught.
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Dave G
Well-Known Member
"Whoseover believeth" means anyone who truly believes.
But there's far more to the "whosoever believeth" than simply claiming to believe on Christ with the mind, or believing on "another jesus", instead of the Son of God developed strictly from His word...the Bible tells us that there are people who claim to believe, but then fall away ( Matthew 13:18-23 ) because they are "tares" that were sown by the enemy ( Matthew 13:24-30, Matthew 13:36-43 ).
They are false brethren ( Acts of the apostles 20:29-30, Galatians 2:4, 2 Corinthians 11:4-15, 1 John 2:19 ).
It tells us that there were Jews that claimed to believe on Christ, but when the Lord told them things that were hard to understand, they went their way and walked no more with Him ( John 6:66 ).
So, did they ever truly believe on Christ in their heart?
If they did, they would have never fallen away...they would have endured to the end ( Matthew 24:13 ).
They would have continued to follow Him, like Scriptures says that His sheep do ( John 10:27-29 ).
Scripture has quite a bit to say about:
1) Why men believe and why they do not.
2) Why men call upon the name of the Lord.
God's word doesn't just stop at "Whosoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."
Here are some things that develop what it is to call upon the name of the Lord, and what a person must possess in order to do so:
" The LORD [is] nigh unto all them that call upon him, to all that call upon him in truth." ( Psalms 145:18 )
One must call upon Him in truth.
" Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart." ( 2 Timothy 2:22 )
How does one get a pure heart?
" The LORD [is] far from the wicked: but he heareth the prayer of the righteous." ( Proverbs 15:29 )
How is one made righteous?
So, who are the "whosoever believeth"?
Anyone who claims to believe, yet loves the world and walks after the flesh ( Romans 8:5-9 )?
Anyone who professes Christ, yet continues to follow false shepherds and believe false doctrines ( John 10:5 )?
Anyone who names the name of Christ, yet over the course of their lives will not depart from iniquity ( 2 Timothy 2:19 )?
Or are they the ones who are born of God?
With respect, I think the futility is in not considering all that Scripture states with regard to how and why someone comes to believe on Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of their sins.
God's word doesn't just stop at John 3:16 and 2 Peter 3:9.
There are 31,099 "verses" other than those two, that comprise the whole of Scripture.
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37818
Well-Known Member
The divine knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 3:22).
Interestingly the incarnate Christ had this knowledge of good and evil from two sources. As the Holy God He always had it (Genesis 3:22). And in His incarnation inherited it also from Adam (Luke 3:38).
It seems they can make verses apply to whatever people group they deem necessary to make their theology fit.
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Dave G
Well-Known Member
Yes, I saw that the first time you posted it.
I'm not a "Calvinist" because I don't follow John Calvin nor his teachings, but I understand why you call me one.
To me, it's futile to discuss Scripture with those who cannot understand it.
But I still hope that God will be gracious, and give people who cannot see the words on the page:
" And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." ( Acts of the Apostles 13:48 ).
...the ability to "see" and understand them ( 2 Timothy 2:25 ).
Even though I personally fear for those who claim to believe on Christ but can never seem to understand His words in context, I always hope that God will show them what He has shown me...the amazing grace that cannot be purchased or asked for, and that is a gift ( Romans 6:23 ) given freely ( Romans 11:29 ) to men that God decides to give it to ( Exodus 33:19, Romans 9:14-18 ).
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Dave G
Well-Known Member
Thus far in all the threads that have been created on this forum with this concept in mind, I have not seen one Scripture, quoted in context, that states that men actually have the will or desire to come to God, without God being the cause of it ( Psalms 65:4 ).
To me, it's an assumed "doctrine" that is read and inferred from many passages, not one of which actually addresses all men.
In the Old Testament, there are passages that, when isolated from their context, give the impression that men can come to God and that men can honestly seek God.
There are also passages that explicitly declare that mankind is wicked in God's eyes, and does not seek God in all his ways ( Psalms 10:4, Psalms 14:1-3, Psalms 36:1-4, Psalms 53:1-3 ).
But when examined closely and in context, the ones that appear to show that mankind can seek God, all apply to Israel... a nation that God Himself initiated an earthly covenant of Law with ( not an eternal covenant of grace through faith in Christ's blood ).
It was an earthly covenant with earthly promises...and one they could not keep.
Why?
Because man's basic nature is corrupt, and our desire for sin and our love for it ( Romans 1:32, John 3:19-20 ) keep us from obeying God consistently and honestly.
As a race, we only ever run towards sin ( Romans 3:10-18, Ephesians 4:17-19 ) instead of away from it.
Outside of being born again and the power of God's Spirit, no man will ever choose to obey God and actually be able ( or even willing ) to do it.
The lesson?
For God's children, the example of a segment of mankind being given an earthly covenant and being unable to to keep it, demonstrates the necessity of God needing to change a man's heart and instituting a better covenant with better promises ( Hebrews 8:1-13 ) that relies on God Himself, in the form of His Son, being made the perfect sacrifice for sins and being perfectly obedient to the earthly requirements of that which mankind could not do, despite his or her best efforts.
Not only can He now trust the people that He has invited to partake in this covenant, He can also now call them His people, in the eternal sense.
But that new covenant carries with it the evidences of true belief from a changed heart, true calling upon Him in truth ( not error ), and truly seeking Him, not just "seeking" Him in order to get out of going to Hell.
The doctrine that a person can, by their own will, trigger the process of being born again?
Not in the Bible.
That is controlled by God ( John 1:13 ), not men.
There is no such thing as "Prevenient Grace"...that is an invention of men like John Wesley, who also taught that a person's will, their bad choices, could result in losing what God's word tells us is strictly a gift.
One that He doesn't just give to anyone ( Matthew 7:14 ).
He gives it to His elect, His children and Christ's sheep...which offends many who think that God exercising His choice on who to save is unjust and unfair.
I cannot state this enough...He decides who to save and who to damn, and He is just and His every choice is righteous.
At the end of it all, we'd all be in Hell if not for His choice and His grace ( Isaiah 1:9, Romans 9:29 ).
Those of us that can truly say that we rest in Christ's sacrifice on the cross for our sins?
We know that we can boast in nothing but His grace and mercy ( Titus 3:5-6 ).
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To me, it's futile to discuss Scripture with those who cannot understand it.
But I still hope that God will be gracious, and give people who cannot see the words on the page
And there it is--people that don't accept Calvinism, er, the Doctrines of Grace, are just too stupid to understand it.
You're so enlightened. Oh, that I could aspire to your greatness!
Jos 24:15
And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, chooseyou this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD
– Nah, even if one was to accept this specially pedigreed method as the way of salvation IT STILL clearly denotes the ability of a choice of the “intended audience” while the Word, in truth, instructs those individuals to make that choice.
Rev 22:17
And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely
So when the Spirit says, “Come - And accomplish all the words of this prophecy.” You got to understand the Calvinist secret code to know no one can really accomplish anything here and if you come it obviously has to be while you kick and scream being forcefully drug into it. “Let him that is athirst come” is a trick because unless they were predestined no one really hungers and thirsts for the truths in life. And “whosoever will” is more code word for only the specially pre-selected few. And, when the Word says, “let him” it really means “make him” because he has no choice, and “take the water of life freely.” means God will drown you in the water against any will you might have if you’re lucky enough to have been one of pre-selected few. Got it!
Hmm, with all this re-writing to do to understand the Word properly in a Deterministic context in this verse I sure hope the Calvinist understands the next verse because that sounds like a pretty serious caution!
And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, chooseyou this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD
Even if this passage was never meant to reach the ears and give light to any person that wasn’t specially pre-selected, because as the Calvinists know God doesn’t want just anyone sneaking into receiving His promise by thinking the messages in His Book of Life might apply to them
– Nah, even if one was to accept this specially pedigreed method as the way of salvation IT STILL clearly denotes the ability of a choice of the “intended audience” while the Word, in truth, instructs those individuals to make that choice. Rev 22:17
And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely
So when the Spirit says, “Come - And accomplish all the words of this prophecy.” You got to understand the Calvinist secret code to know no one can really accomplish anything here and if you come it obviously has to be while you kick and scream being forcefully drug into it. “Let him that is athirst come” is a trick because unless they were predestined no one really hungers and thirsts for the truths in life. And “whosoever will” is more code word for only the specially pre-selected few. And, when the Word says, “let him” it really means “make him” because he has no choice, and “take the water of life freely.” means God will drown you in the water against any will you might have if you’re lucky enough to have been one of pre-selected few. Got it!
Hmm, with all this re-writing to do to understand the Word properly in a Deterministic context in this verse I sure hope the Calvinist understands the next verse because that sounds like a pretty serious caution!
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