Where is this other Jewish Calendar?

[37818]

Not Nisan 13 but 13/14 vs 14/15. That is, during g the "/". Beginning or end of Nisan 14. Two different sects. Two different times. Same history.

If so, that is not found taught in the Bible.

On the 14th, the offering of that Passover lamb is between the two evenings, been translated "twilight," what is better correctly translated in modern English called "afternoon." Being between noon and before sundown.

John Darby, Exodus 12:6, And ye shall keep it until the fourteenth day of this month; and the whole congregation of the assembly of Israel shall kill it between the two evenings.

1917 JPS, and ye shall keep it unto the fourteenth day of the same month; and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it at dusk.

On line, Exodus 12:
6 And you shall keep it for inspection until the fourteenth day of this month, and the entire congregation of the community of Israel shall slaughter it in the afternoon.

https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/9873/jewish/Chapter-12.htm

 

[JonC]

If so, that is not found taught in the Bible.

On the 14th, the offering of that Passover lamb is between the two evenings, been translated "twilight," what is better correctly translated in modern English called "afternoon." Being between noon and before sundown.

John Darby, Exodus 12:6, And ye shall keep it until the fourteenth day of this month; and the whole congregation of the assembly of Israel shall kill it between the two evenings.

1917 JPS, and ye shall keep it unto the fourteenth day of the same month; and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it at dusk.

On line, Exodus 12:
6 And you shall keep it for inspection until the fourteenth day of this month, and the entire congregation of the community of Israel shall slaughter it in the afternoon.

https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/9873/jewish/Chapter-12.htm

Like I said, this was a difference between the Pharisees and the Sadducees.

One started at the beginning of Nisan 14 (13/14) and the other at the end of Nisan 14 (14/15).

There is no point in deciding which we think better follows Exodus 12.

The one group also killed the Passover without priests (something the Sadduccees complained about).


Mark was stating what had occurred. He didn't argue over whi h one was more proper, or simply quote Exodus.


If Tom says such and such happened at the time of a school shooting this has nothing to do with whether school shootings should occur.


The point is we know the Passover was killed "between the evenings" starting and ending Nisan 14 by seperate Jewish sects in the 1st century AD.

 

[JonC]

Here is a calculated calendar (it assumes the calculated calender matches the observation calendar) time frame that fits the timeline of all gospels and historical facts:

Thursday afternoon - Jesus traveling to Jerusalem.

Thursday afternoon - Passover is killed (Galilean)

Thursday when evening came - Last Supper

Thursday night - arrest

Friday morning- Trial

Friday afternoon - Crucifixion

Saturday - Pasdover and "high day"

Saturday very late or Sunday very early- Resurrection on 3rd day.

Sunday morning before light - tomb found empty.

If the calculated Calender is correct (an assumption) then the date that fits the Biblical narrative is 3 April 33 AD

 

[37818]

There is no point in deciding which we think better follows Exodus 12.

In other words the absence of the 13th as a date in those 8 days doesn't mean anything to the correct Biblical view of Mark 14:12 being the 14th the day before the crucifixion.

 

[JonC]

In other words the absence of the 13th as a date in those 8 days doesn't mean anything to the correct Biblical view of Mark 14:12 being the 14th the day before the crucifixion.

As a date?

It depends on how you count days.

One set of Jews killed the Passover in the late afternoon at the start of Nisan 14.

BUT another set of Jews thought that was not the proper time and sacrificed the animal in the afternoon at the end of Nisan 14.

So one sect viewed Jews as killing the Passover a day early and the other sect as their political rivals sacrificing a day late.


If I were to decide then I'd kill the Passover at the end of Nisan 14 and have the meal on Nisan 15.


But it does not matter how we would do it, or who was right or wrong.


We know that is what occurred. One viewed a 13/14 Nisan Passover (counting that twilight as Nisan 14) and the other a 14/15 Passover.

One had to be wrong.....I think the Pharisees as they took a liberal position.....but it doesn't matter.


Either way Mark would have observed the killing of the Passover in the twilight (late afternoon) before the night of Nisan 14.

 

[37818]

As a date?

Either way Mark would have observed the killing of the Passover in the twilight (late afternoon) before the night of Nisan 14.

The evening, then night precedes the day of the 14th date in which between the evenings, noon and before the following sundown, aka afternoon.

Verse 6.
https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/9873/jewish/Chapter-12.htm

 

[JonC]

The evening, then night precedes the day of the 14th date in which between the evenings, noon and before the following sundown, aka afternoon.

Verse 6.
https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/9873/jewish/Chapter-12.htm

Yes. That is how I would work out the "proper" Jewish day as well.

But as I'm sure you know, the Sadducees and Pharisees held different views about this. Some sects even maintained the date starting with sunrise.

It is easier now that these sects do not exist. But in the 1st century AD there were Sadducees, Essenes, Pharisees, and Scribes. And yes, I know these sects did not exist in the time of the Exodus. Neither did their divisions.

One sect held that the Passover was to be killed on the evening (twilight) at the start of Nisan 14 while the other sect viewed that is improper and sacrificed the Passover at the end of Nisan 14.

You do see how their times were different dont you?

Mark would have seen the Pasdover being killed in the evening before 14 Nisan which would our (Julian Calendar) day before the Temple sacrifice.


I do not care which sect had the proper timing. It does not matter.

The readon it does not matter is it has absolutely no bearing on what Mark woukd have seen.

Thursday at twilight he would have seen the Jews killing the sacrifice. And Friday around 3pm he would be aware of the Pasdover being sacrificed in Jerusalem.

This is true regardless of which practice, the Pharisees or the Sadducees, were right. It does not change what Mark would have seen and known.

 

[JonC]

Point is not which Jews were right (twilight at beginning or end of day).

Point is that, while one has to be wrong, both were practiced.

The Passover was killed on twilight before tge night at the start of Nisan 14 AND the Pasdover was sacrificed around 3pm on the afternoon of 14 Nisan.

We cannot ignore 1st century Jewish history when examining the crucifixion week.

 

[37818]

In my simple understanding Mark 14:12-16 is Nisan 14. And Mark 14:17 is the sundown beginning Nisan 15. So John 19:14, would be about our 6 AM the morning of Nisan 15. Where the first of the 7 passover lambs would be made ready. Wouldn't any sin offering be made first for that week? Numbers 28:22?

 

[JonC]

In my simple understanding Mark 14:12-16 is Nisan 14. And Mark 14:17 is the sundown beginning Nisan 15. So John 19:14, would be about our 6 AM the morning of Nisan 15. Where the first of the 7 passover lambs would be made ready. Wouldn't any sin offering be made first for that week? Numbers 28:22?

The issue is not our understanding but what was practiced in the 1st century.

You had one group starting the day at twilight and another when it was dark.

One group was more liberal in interpretation.

But we do the sane thing.

Have you ever seen a sunset? Per your legalistic definition...no because sunset is dark. But most of us have seen a sunset.


It does not matter which practice you and I believe proper. The fact is both were practiced. Mark would have had the tradition of the earlier observance. Jesus would have as well (based on His culture).

 

[percho]

Point is not which Jews were right (twilight at beginning or end of day).

Point is that, while one has to be wrong, both were practiced.

The Passover was killed on twilight before tge night at the start of Nisan 14 AND the Pasdover was sacrificed around 3pm on the afternoon of 14 Nisan.

We cannot ignore 1st century Jewish history when examining the crucifixion week.

I have not read all post therefore I could be wrong in posting the following but it appears to me you do not believe there is any right or wrong to when the passover was killed for if you do believe there is then according to you the Son of the living God celebrated [killed] the passover not according to the word of God.

 

[JonC]

I have not read all post therefore I could be wrong in posting the following but it appears to me you do not believe there is any right or wrong to when the passover was killed for if you do believe there is then according to you the Son of the living God celebrated [killed] the passover not according to the word of God.

No. I do believe that in the OT they observed one time. So there is a "right" time.

According to God's Word Jesus did not kill the Passover. He was traveling, outside of Jerusalem when the killing of the Passover was noted by His disciples who asked where He would take that meal.

Jesus IS the Passover.

There are no records of Jesus demanding His family and friends change the time of their observance.

Both are on Nisan 14, depending on how you interpret the passages.

One sect killed the Passover at twilight introducing Nisan 14 do as to eat the meal on the night of Nisan 14.

One sect killed the Passover on the afternoon ending Nisan 14 so as to eat the meal on Nisan 15.

 

[percho]

No. I do believe that in the OT they observed one time. So there is a "right" time.

According to God's Word Jesus did not kill the Passover. He was traveling, outside of Jerusalem when the killing of the Passover was noted by His disciples who asked where He would take that meal.

Jesus IS the Passover.

There are no records of Jesus demanding His family and friends change the time of their observance.

Both are on Nisan 14, depending on how you interpret the passages.

One sect killed the Passover at twilight introducing Nisan 14 do as to eat the meal on the night of Nisan 14.

One sect killed the Passover on the afternoon ending Nisan 14 so as to eat the meal on Nisan 15.

In your opinion.

Which sect was following the instructions God gave to Moses?


The ones eating the passover on the 14th or the ones eating the passover on the 15th?

Lev 23:1 And Jehovah speaketh unto Moses, saying,
V 5 in the first month, on the fourteenth of the month, between the evenings, is the passover to Jehovah;
V 6,7 and on the fifteenth day of this month is the feast of unleavened things to Jehovah; seven days unleavened things ye do eat; on the first day ye have a holy convocation, ye do no servile work;

 

[JonC]

In your opinion.

Which sect was following the instructions God gave to Moses?


The ones eating the passover on the 14th or the ones eating the passover on the 15th?

Lev 23:1 And Jehovah speaketh unto Moses, saying,
V 5 in the first month, on the fourteenth of the month, between the evenings, is the passover to Jehovah;
V 6,7 and on the fifteenth day of this month is the feast of unleavened things to Jehovah; seven days unleavened things ye do eat; on the first day ye have a holy convocation, ye do no servile work;

I think the 14/15 is correct.

But we know both were observed. Those who practiced a 14 only (twilight at the beginning of the 14) also observed the Temple practice.

Point is the Passover killing Mark would have observed would be the first, and the second what John wrote of in explaining why in Jerusalem haste was necessary. Otherwise you have to choose which Gospel is correct rather than trusting both are.

 

[percho]

I think the 14/15 is correct.

But we know both were observed. Those who practiced a 14 only (twilight at the beginning of the 14) also observed the Temple practice.

Point is the Passover killing Mark would have observed would be the first, and the second what John wrote of in explaining why in Jerusalem haste was necessary. Otherwise you have to choose which Gospel is correct rather than trusting both are.

I do not believe either gospel in incorrect not do I believe anyone killed the passover lamb on the 13th and ate that lamb at the beginning of the 14th especially Jesus, the Word made flesh, the Son of God, God giving the command of when the passover lamb was to be killed and to be eaten.

It seems odd to me that Emmanuel, God with us, would do such a thing.

 

[JonC]

I do not believe either gospel in incorrect not do I believe anyone killed the passover lamb on the 13th and ate that lamb at the beginning of the 14th especially Jesus, the Word made flesh, the Son of God, God giving the command of when the passover lamb was to be killed and to be eaten.

It seems odd to me that Emmanuel, God with us, would do such a thing.

Here is what we know:

Mark said that Jesus was traveling to Jerusalem when the Passover was being killed.

John said that Jesus was crucified the day before the Passover.

If you reject historical accounts and divisions among Jewish sects (one killing the Passover at twilight starting Nisan 14 and the other at its end) then you need to choose whether John or Mark were wrong.

Passover could not have been the day of the crucifixion AND the day after the crucifixion if there was only one.


The main issue is we know about these practices.

The flaw in your argument is that Jesus IS the Passover Lamb (and the fact it ignores historical practices).

 

[37818]

John said that Jesus was crucified the day before the Passover.

That is an interpretation.

But based on Luke 22:1, John was referring to a day of the feast. We know that because John 19:14 is the morning following Mark 14:17.

 

[37818]

. . . ignores historical practices . . . .

Where is that common written source for this?

 

[JonC]

Where is that common written source for this?

I already listed them (there are 3 from Jesus' time and one just after the destruction of the Temple). I don't recall off hand, but look at our recent posts of the topic.

They are in argument form with the exception of the last.

 

[JonC]

That is an interpretation.

But based on Luke 22:1, John was referring to a day of the feast. We know that because John 19:14 is the morning following Mark 14:17.

No. That is literally what John wrote. A day being Passover is never used to describe a day in the feast.

"Passover" is used to describe the feast, but never a day excluding Nisan 15.