Where is this other Jewish Calendar?

[37818]

I already listed them (there are 3 from Jesus' time and one just after the destruction of the Temple). I don't recall off hand, but look at our recent posts of the topic.

They are in argument form with the exception of the last.

Maybe so.
Well, I am unable to cite them.

 

[37818]

No. That is literally what John wrote. A day being Passover is never used to describe a day in the feast.

Luke 22:1, Now the feast of unleavened bread drew nigh, which is called the Passover.

 

[JonC]

Maybe so.
Well, I am unable to cite them.

Off hand, so am I.

I was aware of 2 of the references, but found 2 looking those up.

Believe what you want to believe, brother.

Just be careful not to become a stumbling block to others who know 1st century history.

 

[JonC]

Luke 22:1, Now the feast of unleavened bread drew nigh, which is called the Passover.

Yes. Like I said the Passover can refer to the entire feast.

Some do the same with Easter. Some observe Easter week. But nobody calls Thursday "Easter" just like nobody calls a day in the feast "Passover". Passover os a day, but it also has been used to describe a week.

Insofar as counting the days, I am not sure why they disagreed.

Maybe they started 1 Nisan when the moon was visible (twilight) instead of waiting until dark....each day starting earlier than the other sect.

But we do know per 1st century documents this was an issue of interpretation.

 

[37818]

FYI, my view point came about beginning in 1969. Over the question of whether the crucifixion was Friday or Wednesday. Once from the New Testament Jewish calendar month day dates were deduced, it became a possible actual dates issue.

 

[37818]

The Jewish dates begin with their evening.sundown.

Mark 15:42, And now when the even was come, because it was the preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath, . . .

The Jewish day of Preparation begins with our Thursday evening and ends with our Friday evening being the Sabbath.

So I deduced that evening was our Thursday, Mark 15:42. And other reasons.

 

[JonC]

FYI, my view point came about beginning in 1969. Over the question of whether the crucifixion was Friday or Wednesday. Once from the New Testament Jewish calendar month day dates were deduced, it became a possible actual dates issue.

That is probably a big difference between how we arrived at our views.

When my father passed away I was given his copy of Josephus. He loved studying Scripture and history (growing up we had to stop at every single historical marker we passed).

So in addition to Scripture I had also grown fond of 1st century Jewish history, practices, and literature.

So by the time I started wondering about the day I already knew about the different Hebrew calendars, the different practices in regard to the Passover, and the divide between the Pharisees and Sadducees.


I knew some Jews began counting the day when they saw that moon (in the late afternoon) and others at sundown on the afternoon they saw the moon.

This is an issue when going through Scripture.


I knew one sect counted the day starting at twilight. If you see the moon and start 1 Nisan at that time then it would be earlier than if you waited until dark.

But I also knew another sect started tge day several hours later, after it had become dark.

These differences are minute - only a few hours, but they throw off each sects practices by about a day as both killed the Passover at twilight on 14 Nisan as they determined the date.

 

[JonC]

The Jewish dates begin with their evening.sundown.

Mark 15:42, And now when the even was come, because it was the preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath, . . .

The Jewish day of Preparation begins with our Thursday evening and ends with our Friday evening being the Sabbath.

So I deduced that evening was our Thursday, Mark 15:42. And other reasons.

The issue is one of interpretation.

Does 1 Nisan start when the sliver of moon is observed? If so, that day starts at twilight or "between the evenings". If so then each following day starts at twilight.

Does 1 Nisan start on the night following the observance of the sliver of moon? If so each day starts at dark.


We are talking about approximately 2 hours difference BUT since both sects killed the Passover at twilight on 14 Nisan this sets the killings about 24 hours apart.


You had one sect killing the Passover at twilight on 14 Nisan at the START of the day by their interpretation.

You had another sect killing the Passover at twilight on 14 Nisan at the END of the day by their interpretation.

 

[37818]

The issue is one of interpretation.

Does 1 Nisan start when the sliver of moon is observed? If so, that day starts at twilight or "between the evenings". If so then each following day starts at twilight.

Does 1 Nisan start on the night following the observance of the sliver of moon? If so each day starts at dark.


We are talking about approximately 2 hours difference BUT since both sects killed the Passover at twilight on 14 Nisan this sets the killings about 24 hours apart.


You had one sect killing the Passover at twilight on 14 Nisan at the START of the day by their interpretation.

You had another sect killing the Passover at twilight on 14 Nisan at the END of the day by their interpretation.

The position of the moon is not mentioned in the Biblical text. Other things are. Dates of the month in Exodus 12:18, and their evenings. Observances Mark 14:12, etc.

 

[JonC]

The position of the moon is not mentioned in the Biblical text. Other things are. Dates of the month in Exodus 12:18, and their evenings. Observances Mark 14:12, etc.

Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hates; they have become a burden to me; I am weary of bearing them.


Anyway....that is the point and the reason for different interpretations in the 1st century.

The evening and the morning.....is this twilight and morning (as one sect observed) or dark and light (as another observed)?

It does not matter which is correct. What matters is both were observed because of differences in interpretation.

 

[37818]

Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hates; they have become a burden to me; I am weary of bearing them.


Anyway....that is the point and the reason for different interpretations in the 1st century.

The evening and the morning.....is this twilight and morning (as one sect observed) or dark and light (as another observed)?

It does not matter which is correct. What matters is both were observed because of differences in interpretation.

Before Sir Isaac Newton's Julian date for a Friday Nisan 14th, April 3rd, 33 AD crucifixion date. Friday April 7, 30 AD was the accepted crucifixion date until then.
R. A. Torrey proposed a Wednesday Nisan 14th date 30 AD, based on Matthew 12:40.

 

[JonC]

Before Sir Isaac Newton's Julian date for a Friday Nisan 14th, April 3rd, 33 AD crucifixion date. Friday April 7, 30 AD was the accepted crucifixion date until then.
R. A. Torrey proposed a Wednesday Nisan 14th date 30 AD, based on Matthew 12:40.

No. AD 30 was not "the accepted date".

The earliest date we know of was 33 AD, which is the traditional view.

New Testament scholars provide 2 possibilities based on the calculated lunar calendar - 30 AD and 33 AD.

Most New Testament scholars side with 33 AD.

Here are several reasons:

1. It fits the Biblical narrative.

2. It best fits with Luke's account of Jesus' baptism.

3. It fits the calculated Hebrew Calendar.

4. It assumes a literal reading of Mark and John.


As you noted on another thread, 30 AD has "some problems". 33 AD does not.


But 30 AD and 33 AD are the two most popular choices, with most Biblical experts siding with 33 AD.

 

[JonC]

@37818

Anyway, this thread asked about other Jewush calendars.

These are generally the Biblical Hebrew Calendar, the Talmudic Hebrew Calendar, and the Post-Talmudic Hebrew Calendar.

The time between the Biblical Calendar Calendar and Talmudic Hebrew Calendar did experience some changes, but those are rge three general calendars (calendars based in different methods).

 

[37818]

No. AD 30 was not "the accepted date".

The earliest date we know of was 33 AD, which is the traditional view.

New Testament scholars provide 2 possibilities based on the calculated lunar calendar - 30 AD and 33 AD.

Most New Testament scholars side with 33 AD.

Here are several reasons:

1. It fits the Biblical narrative.

2. It best fits with Luke's account of Jesus' baptism.

3. It fits the calculated Hebrew Calendar.

4. It assumes a literal reading of Mark and John.


As you noted on another thread, 30 AD has "some problems". 33 AD does not.


But 30 AD and 33 AD are the two most popular choices, with most Biblical experts siding with 33 AD.

In 33 AD Nisan 14th was a Friday. According to Mark 14:12, it would be Nisan 14 the day before the crucifixion. So in 33 AD the crucifixion would be per Mark 14:12 the next day a Sabbath. Of course this doesn't work.

 

[JonC]

In 33 AD Nisan 14th was a Friday. According to Mark 14:12, it would be Nisan 14 the day before the crucifixion. So in 33 AD the crucifixion would be per Mark 14:12 the next day a Sabbath. Of course this doesn't work.

Per Mark Jesus was traveling to Jerusalem when the Passover was being killed (twilight starting Nisan 14 is what he would have observed outside of Jerusalem). This woukd be before "evening had come").

Jesus arrived "when evening had come. He was arrested on Nisan 14.

Jesus would be crucified about the time the Passover was killed in Jerusalm (twilight at the end of Nisan 14).

They would have had to find a nearby tomb as the Sabbath was approaching (this would be Nisan 15 approaching, a Sabbath and a "high day").

This has Jesus being raised on the 3rd day AND the 1st day of the week.

There are no problems with 33 AD. There ate several with 30 AD.

 

[37818]

Sir Isaac Newton’s Astronomical Dating of Christ's Crucifixion

Newton's Date For The Crucifixion

 

[37818]

John 12:1-2, was not a Sabbath. . . . Then Jesus six days before the passover came to Bethany, where Lazarus was which had been dead, whom he raised from the dead. There they made him a supper; and Martha served: but Lazarus was one of them that sat at the table with him. . . .

14th of Nisan - 6 is the 8th of Nisan. If 14th is a 6th day of the week then the 8th of Nisan would end up being a Sabbath.
Friday
Thursday -1
Wednesday -2
Tuesday -3
Monday -4
Sunday -5
Saturday -6 a Sabbath

So John 12:1-2 not being a Sabbath day rules out the 14th of Nisan being a Friday.

 

[37818]

Per Mark Jesus was traveling to Jerusalem when the Passover was being killed (twilight starting Nisan 14 is what he would have observed outside of Jerusalem). This woukd be before "evening had come").

Between the two evenings, noon and sundown is afternoon.

Exodus 12:6, And you shall keep it for inspection until the fourteenth day of this month, and the entire congregation of the community of Israel shall slaughter it in the afternoon.


https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/9873

 

[JonC]

Between the two evenings, noon and sundown is afternoon.

Exodus 12:6, And you shall keep it for inspection until the fourteenth day of this month, and the entire congregation of the community of Israel shall slaughter it in the afternoon.


https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/9873

Exactly. And Scrioture does not specify how an "evening" is counted. We know evening to evening was a day.

Some observed the evening starting 14 Nisan as 14 Nisan while others observed evening on 14 Nisan as ending that day.

It does not matter which one was legalistically correct because we know that both were practiced.

We know that Mark noted the Passover being killed (this occurred twilight at the beginning of Nisan 14 and twilight at the end of Nisan 14).

We know Jesus was crucified the day before a Sabbath and that particular Sabbath was a "high day".

I know how I woukd put those together

You have your way of putting that together.

Believe what you want. It is no big issue because coming up with an exact date does not make the Crucifixion a historical event any more than coming up with a date God spoke to Muhammad makes that a historical event.

The Crucifixion is already a historical event.

 

[37818]

Exactly. And Scrioture does not specify how an "evening" is counted. We know evening to evening was a day.

Some observed the evening starting 14 Nisan as 14 Nisan while others observed evening on 14 Nisan as ending that day.

It does not matter which one was legalistically correct because we know that both were practiced.

We know that Mark noted the Passover being killed (this occurred twilight at the beginning of Nisan 14 and twilight at the end of Nisan 14).

We know Jesus was crucified the day before a Sabbath and that particular Sabbath was a "high day".

I know how I woukd put those together

You have your way of putting that together.

Believe what you want. It is no big issue because coming up with an exact date does not make the Crucifixion a historical event any more than coming up with a date God spoke to Muhammad makes that a historical event.

The Crucifixion is already a historical event.

How we understand the crucifixion event is not agreed.on.