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Where oh where is the Sabbath?
- Thread starter prophecynut
- Start date
You're sidestepping the issue. So God said He added no more. But then we see the 613. So He did add, but He didn't add. "whether you understand it or not, this is just what it SAYS". So is this one of those "paradoxes" where we must "just accept both", like Calvinism's "God ordains sin, yet man is accountable for it"? Or even "God is one, yet three"? Or do we simply realize that the 613 are apart of the 10, just like the ten hang on the two, and are thus not an "addition"?
[ June 29, 2005, 02:22 PM: Message edited by: Eric B ]
[ June 29, 2005, 02:22 PM: Message edited by: Eric B ]
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Indeed we see "The rest of SCRIPTURE" that is NOT written ON TABLETS of STONE and NOT spoken directly by God to Israel!
We "see" that God is telling the truth about THE TEN and the fact that ONLY THEY are written on stone and ONLY THEY are spoken directly by God to His People!
This could not "Be" more obvious.
The point has never been "there is N
THER SCRIPTURE". (And I am not sure you are implying that - but you seem to be going in a somewhat confused direction here).The point is that GOD identifies the UNIT - circles it IN STONE -- and says THERE IS NO MORE.
You may object to his doing that - but that is what He did!
Instead of doing an amorphus-mix of ALL scripture into one giant pot -- God SINGLES OUT the TEN commandments!!
The VERY LAW you seem bent on "Abolishing".
Don't you think that is just a little more than "coincidence"??
IN Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Hardly.
The fact that God would choose to highlight, confirm, reaffirm, expand details ets on HIS UNIT of TEN that are WRITTEN IN STONE is not "inconsistent" with wanting mankind to SEE THE TEN and honor them.
How those other statements of confirmation and affirmation could be construed as ANTI-TEN is beyond me.
He is capable of PLACING the TEN in STONE. And He is capable of AFFIRMING those TEN in the rest of scripture. He HIGHLIGHTS them and separates them - but then continually AFFIRMS and UPHOLDS them as authorotative.
How much more CONSISTENT did you want it?
As for the Lev 19:18 commandment to LOVE your Neighbor and the Deut 6:5 commandment to LOVE GOD -- I do not claim that these Mosaic commandments are "not important". I agree that they form the FOUNDATION upon which the TEN are placed. They don't give us the DETAIL about the World being created in 6 days and then God resting on the Seventh-day BUT THEY DO point out the fact that LOVE for GOD should make us WANT to honor Christ the Creator's Holy Day of Gen 2:3.
In Christ,
Bob
That's precisely the point. The Two are very general, and do not give all the details. The Ten give more details, and the 613 break those down into even more details. All your arguments above are based ont he assumption that the 613 were separate laws from the 10, but I showed above where they were apart of them, and even mixed in. It is not I who does "an amorphus-mix of ALL scripture into one giant pot". God says the entire Law HANGS on the two, and the 10 and 613 are simply different levels of details of them.
Let's look at the very beginning of the Ten Commandments. "I am the Lord thy God who has brought thee out of the land of Egypt.
Did God literally bring us out of Egypt? No, He did SYMBOLICALLY, by bringing us out of the bondage of sin. But then if that is spiritualized, then so can some of the details they outline. This is obviously for ISRAEL only! Even the Jews themselves believe this. (The gentiles have only the 7 universal laws of Noah).
The love of God could make one want to honor the sabbath unto the Lord, if they feel so led. But it seem all too often it is all about comparing and judging the one who doesn't.
Let's look at the very beginning of the Ten Commandments. "I am the Lord thy God who has brought thee out of the land of Egypt.
Did God literally bring us out of Egypt? No, He did SYMBOLICALLY, by bringing us out of the bondage of sin. But then if that is spiritualized, then so can some of the details they outline. This is obviously for ISRAEL only! Even the Jews themselves believe this. (The gentiles have only the 7 universal laws of Noah).
The love of God could make one want to honor the sabbath unto the Lord, if they feel so led. But it seem all too often it is all about comparing and judging the one who doesn't.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
The command to keep PAssover can not be found in the Ten Commandment. The same is true of the feast of first fruits. The same is true of Circumcision. The same is true of the feast of Trumpets. The same is true of the Kinsmen Redeemer. The same is true of ...
My point is that THE TEN are UNIQUE in that they ALONE are place by COMMAND OF GOD into the ARK.
The TEN are a UNIQUE UNIT in that they ALONE are written BY GOD ON stone! "And HE ADDED NO MORE"!
The TEN ARE a UNIQUE UNIT in that they ALONE were spoken BY GOD to Israel!
The UNIT OF TEN continue to be RECOGNIZED in the NT as in Eph 6 Paul says that the "FIRST COMMANDMENT WITH A PROMISE" is the 5th commandment. This is NOT TRUE in the context of the 600!!
The point remains!
In Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Paul said "Ephesians 6
1 Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right.
2 HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER (which is the first commandment with a promise),"
But ERIC Said -- "This is obviously for ISRAEL only"
-------------------------------------------
James 2 says "
10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.
11 For He who said, "" DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY,'' also said, "" DO NOT COMMIT MURDER.'' Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.
12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty."
But ERIC Said -- "This is obviously for ISRAEL only"
----------------------------
Paul said -- Rom 7 "
7 What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, "" YOU SHALL NOT COVET.''
8 But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead.
9 I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died;
"
But ERIC Said -- "This is obviously for ISRAEL only"
---------------------------
Paul said --
Rom 13 "8 Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.
9 For this, "" YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, YOU SHALL NOT MURDER, YOU SHALL NOT STEAL, YOU SHALL NOT COVET,'' and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, "" YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.''
10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law."
(BTW - Curious that Paul claims WE Are to FULFILL the LAW -- still)
But ERIC Said -- "This is obviously for ISRAEL only"
-----------------------------------------
Paul said --
Rom 3
I am beginning to see a pattern -- how about you?
In Christ,
Bob
1 Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right.
2 HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER (which is the first commandment with a promise),"
But ERIC Said -- "This is obviously for ISRAEL only"
-------------------------------------------
James 2 says "
10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.
11 For He who said, "" DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY,'' also said, "" DO NOT COMMIT MURDER.'' Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.
12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty."
But ERIC Said -- "This is obviously for ISRAEL only"
----------------------------
Paul said -- Rom 7 "
7 What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, "" YOU SHALL NOT COVET.''
8 But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead.
9 I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died;
"
But ERIC Said -- "This is obviously for ISRAEL only"
---------------------------
Paul said --
Rom 13 "8 Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.
9 For this, "" YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, YOU SHALL NOT MURDER, YOU SHALL NOT STEAL, YOU SHALL NOT COVET,'' and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, "" YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.''
10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law."
(BTW - Curious that Paul claims WE Are to FULFILL the LAW -- still)
But ERIC Said -- "This is obviously for ISRAEL only"
-----------------------------------------
Paul said --
Rom 3
But ERIC Said -- "This is obviously for ISRAEL only"
I am beginning to see a pattern -- how about you?
In Christ,
Bob
And I also said "The gentiles have only the 7 universal laws of Noah", which include "YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, YOU SHALL NOT MURDER, YOU SHALL NOT STEAL" These break down into 66 principles, which include "YOU SHALL NOT COVET" and "obey your parents". Note the key prase you quoted: "IF there is any other commandment, it is SUMMED UP in this saying, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.'
10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law."
Notice, "IF"! Is Paul not sure whether there are any other commandments? No; though this suggests that we are not necessarily following the ten-point code, but rather a more general principle called love. What he's saying is that whatever the others are, they are apart of "love your neighbor". That command is NOT "apart of" the 10, but SUMS them up, and thus FULFILLS them. You then throw out "(BTW - Curious that Paul claims WE Are to FULFILL the LAW -- still)", but you do not even know what this means.
So what I said was "obviously for ISRAEL only" was the 10 point code. God did not physically bring us out of Egypt, so the whole package was for them. Individual commandments carry over to us (and were always universal to all of Noah's descendants), and can be reiterated. Note how in Acts the command against things strangled and blood--from the greater 613, are included. You yourself maintain the dietary, also from the 613. So if it is correct that anything not on the two tablets of stone, and outside the ark is deleted, then you are talking out of both sides of your mout! But once again, you accuse me of saying that the universal commands were for Israel only, taking my statement out of context, and repeating it over and over. That is false witness, which is one of those universal laws, as well as part of your Ten!
The annual holy days were SABBATHS, and would come under the fourth commandment. Note, Ex.31:13, my sabbathS ye shall keep...as a sign"; not just the weekly! This is one way, as I have been showing, that various commandments HANG ON others, rather than being ADDITIONS to the 10.
So God did not command the 613? Who gave Leviticus, with the dietary and the rest of those Laws? Did Moses make it all up?
Ch.11: And the LORD spake unto Moses and Aaron..." But Bob says "The TEN ARE a UNIQUE UNIT in that they ALONE were spoken BY GOD to Israel!"
Ch.12 "and the LORD spake unto Moses..." But Bob says "The TEN ... ALONE were spoken BY GOD to Israel!"
Ch.13 "And the LORD spake unto Moses and Aaron saying..." But Bob says "The TEN...ALONE were spoken BY GOD to Israel!"
Do you even know what you are saying?
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
There were no Jews in the Garden of Eden when Christ the Creator's Holy Seventh day was "MADE" according to Gen 2:3 and Exodus 20:8-11.
Christ the creator even said "THe Sabbath was MADE for MANKIND" Mark 2:27
The scope far exceeded "Jews".
Then in Isiah 66 Christ the Creator says that IN THE NEW EARTH of Rev 21 "ALL MANKIND" will come before God to WORSHIP!
Again - the scope far exceeds "Jews only"
Just thought I would point that out.
IN Christ,
Bob
Christ the creator even said "THe Sabbath was MADE for MANKIND" Mark 2:27
The scope far exceeded "Jews".
Then in Isiah 66 Christ the Creator says that IN THE NEW EARTH of Rev 21 "ALL MANKIND" will come before God to WORSHIP!
Again - the scope far exceeds "Jews only"
Just thought I would point that out.
IN Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
quote:Bob said --
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The TEN ARE a UNIQUE UNIT in that they ALONE were spoken BY GOD to Israel!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I believe the "details" in the text point to the fact that ONLY these words were spoken at the Exodus 20 event where God spoke DIRECTLY with the people.
In Exodus 20 right AFTER the TEN were SPOKEN the people went to Moses and said "please - do not have God speak directly to us any more".
But in no case did God give His Law to mankind as we see in Exodus 20. He spoke those 10 commands AND WROTE those ten on stone and "Added no More"
The point remains.
In Christ,
Bob
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The TEN ARE a UNIQUE UNIT in that they ALONE were spoken BY GOD to Israel!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Take it up with God - He ALONE said "AND HE ADDED NO MORE".
I believe the "details" in the text point to the fact that ONLY these words were spoken at the Exodus 20 event where God spoke DIRECTLY with the people.
In Exodus 20 right AFTER the TEN were SPOKEN the people went to Moses and said "please - do not have God speak directly to us any more".
Nope. "NO scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation but holy men of old moved by the Holy Spirit SPOKE FROM GOD"
But in no case did God give His Law to mankind as we see in Exodus 20. He spoke those 10 commands AND WROTE those ten on stone and "Added no More"
The point remains.
In Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The command to keep PAssover can not be found in the Ten Commandment. The same is true of the feast of first fruits. The same is true of Circumcision. The same is true of the feast of Trumpets. The same is true of the Kinsmen Redeemer. The same is true of ...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It points back to Christ the Creator's Work at Creation, to the literal fact of SIX leteral days of work and then a 7th literal day of rest.
Nothing else!
But that was a nice try.
In Christ,
Bob
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The command to keep PAssover can not be found in the Ten Commandment. The same is true of the feast of first fruits. The same is true of Circumcision. The same is true of the feast of Trumpets. The same is true of the Kinsmen Redeemer. The same is true of ...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The 4th commandment says "THE SEVENTH DAY IS THE Sabbath". It is "specific" about WHICH day and is specific about WHY "FOR in SIX DAYS the Lord MADE... and RESTED the SEVENTH Day.. MADE it HOLY".
It points back to Christ the Creator's Work at Creation, to the literal fact of SIX leteral days of work and then a 7th literal day of rest.
Nothing else!
But that was a nice try.
In Christ,
Bob
T
TexasSky
Guest
Bob,
Which day do you consider to be the Sabbath day?
It says, "Six days shalt thou labor, the seventh day..."
So, if you start work on Sunday.... or Tuesday or... Saturday... which day is actually the Sabbath day?
Which day do you consider to be the Sabbath day?
It says, "Six days shalt thou labor, the seventh day..."
So, if you start work on Sunday.... or Tuesday or... Saturday... which day is actually the Sabbath day?
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
God already picked the days of the week.
In Gen 2:3 it was THE Seventh day of Creation week - the FIRST full day for Adam and Eve. They did not have "some confusing choice of days".
In Exodus God tells them "Again" which day -- is the very day to keep.
We know which day Christ was keeping.
The problem is not as hard as some have imagined.
In Christ,
Bob
In Gen 2:3 it was THE Seventh day of Creation week - the FIRST full day for Adam and Eve. They did not have "some confusing choice of days".
In Exodus God tells them "Again" which day -- is the very day to keep.
So we have God identifying the day in Gen 2:3. We have Him doing it again in Exodus 16 and in the Gospels Christ is God - keeping the Sabbath and declaring that "Sabbath was MADE for mankind" in Mark 2:27.
We know which day Christ was keeping.
The problem is not as hard as some have imagined.
In Christ,
Bob
And there was no command there to "keep" it as a "sign" of them being His people either. That only became necessary after they fell, God cursed the ground so that "work" would be strenuous, and then they spawned an entire race of God-rejecting heathens.
The scope may, but the TIME (Old Covenant, with a conditional picture of the New Earth under that covenant) doesn't. This has no bearing on us today.
Read it again: The Israelites were brought before the Mount (19:17ff), but it was still only Moses who went up, and then came down and spoke to the people (v.25). They were even to be kept from coming up and gazing through at God (v21) They, fearing then asked Moses not to let Him speak to them, lest they die. So then God gave the rest of the Law to Moses only. Still, what does all of this really have to do with what commands are still in effect or not? You still keep some of the other ones!
And when those other days were commanded as "sabbaths", how would they know how to keep them as sabbaths? By the sabbath command. So they do fall under that command. They EXPAND that command to special annual occasions! Just like numerous of the other commands address special instances of idolatry, murder, sexual sin, stealing, lying, etc.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
James 2 says "
10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.
11 For He who said, "" DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY,'' also said, "" DO NOT COMMIT MURDER.'' Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.
12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty."
But ERIC Said -- "This is obviously for ISRAEL only"
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There were no Jews in the Garden of Eden when Christ the Creator's Holy Seventh day was "MADE" according to Gen 2:3 and Exodus 20:8-11.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Or maybe they kept it because it was "MADE FOR MANKIND" Mark 2:27. Hence in Gen 2:3 CHrist the Creator says "HE MADE IT A HOLY DAY" but in doing so - it was a BLESSING for mankind.
Which gets us back to the point.
10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.
11 For He who said, "" DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY,'' also said, "" DO NOT COMMIT MURDER.'' Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.
12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty."
But ERIC Said -- "This is obviously for ISRAEL only"
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There were no Jews in the Garden of Eden when Christ the Creator's Holy Seventh day was "MADE" according to Gen 2:3 and Exodus 20:8-11.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So then they kept it as "not a sign"?? OR did they only have a 6 day week?
Or maybe they kept it because it was "MADE FOR MANKIND" Mark 2:27. Hence in Gen 2:3 CHrist the Creator says "HE MADE IT A HOLY DAY" but in doing so - it was a BLESSING for mankind.
Which gets us back to the point.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Christ the creator even said "THe Sabbath was MADE for MANKIND" Mark 2:27
The scope far exceeded "Jews".
Then in Isiah 66 Christ the Creator says that IN THE NEW EARTH of Rev 21 "ALL MANKIND" will come before God to WORSHIP!
Again - the scope far exceeds "Jews only"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Or is this to explain why "ALL MANKIND" will CONTINUE to keep it in the New Earth of Rev 21 according to Isaiah 66?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Christ the creator even said "THe Sabbath was MADE for MANKIND" Mark 2:27
The scope far exceeded "Jews".
Then in Isiah 66 Christ the Creator says that IN THE NEW EARTH of Rev 21 "ALL MANKIND" will come before God to WORSHIP!
Again - the scope far exceeds "Jews only"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This explains why it was "GIVEN TO MANKIND" by Christ the Creator BEFORE SIN and was "MADE FOR mankind"??
Or is this to explain why "ALL MANKIND" will CONTINUE to keep it in the New Earth of Rev 21 according to Isaiah 66?
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Take it up with God - He ALONE said "AND HE ADDED NO MORE".
I believe the "details" in the text point to the fact that ONLY these words were spoken at the Exodus 20 event where God spoke DIRECTLY with the people.
In Exodus 20 right AFTER the TEN were SPOKEN the people went to Moses and said "please - do not have God speak directly to us any more".
"NO scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation but holy men of old moved by the Holy Spirit SPOKE FROM GOD"
But in no case did God give His Law to mankind as we see in Exodus 20. He spoke those 10 commands AND WROTE those ten on stone and "Added no More"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What part of "SPOKE TO ALL your ASSEMBLY" would be chopped off of "AND HE ADDED NO MORE"??
In Christ,
Bob
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Take it up with God - He ALONE said "AND HE ADDED NO MORE".
I believe the "details" in the text point to the fact that ONLY these words were spoken at the Exodus 20 event where God spoke DIRECTLY with the people.
In Exodus 20 right AFTER the TEN were SPOKEN the people went to Moses and said "please - do not have God speak directly to us any more".
"NO scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation but holy men of old moved by the Holy Spirit SPOKE FROM GOD"
But in no case did God give His Law to mankind as we see in Exodus 20. He spoke those 10 commands AND WROTE those ten on stone and "Added no More"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sorry charlie - God SPOKE these TEN (and only these TEN) directly to the people!
All this points out that God MADE the 10 a distinct unit separate and unique in the way they were given. They ALONE spoken to Israel and they ALONE written in GOD's handwriting on tablets of stone "And he added no more".
These are the very ones - man's tradition will attack today.
What part of "SPOKE TO ALL your ASSEMBLY" would be chopped off of "AND HE ADDED NO MORE"??
In Christ,
Bob
prophecynut
New Member
Over and over the same nonsense Bob, you sound like a broken record, skipity skipp skipp, skipity skip skip.
Are you going to continues this nonsense when the Rapture occurs on the first day of the week? When the Church saints are taken up on the anniversary date of Pentecost will you still be on this board typing your fingers to the bone?
Are you going to continues this nonsense when the Rapture occurs on the first day of the week? When the Church saints are taken up on the anniversary date of Pentecost will you still be on this board typing your fingers to the bone?
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The 4th commandment says "THE SEVENTH DAY IS THE Sabbath". It is "specific" about WHICH day and is specific about WHY "FOR in SIX DAYS the Lord MADE... and RESTED the SEVENTH Day.. MADE it HOLY".
It points back to Christ the Creator's Work at Creation, to the literal fact of SIX leteral days of work and then a 7th literal day of rest.
Nothing else!
But that was a nice try.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
IT is by the Lev 23 process described for the PAssover LAMB.
Christ "OUR Passover" is "SLAIN".
There is no "Christ our CREATION SABBATH IS SLAIN" because the Creation SABBATH is NOT SLAIN!!
Adam and Eve celebrated in Gen 2:3 slaying "NOTHING".
This is true also of all Sabbath keeping Christians - STILL to this VERY DAY!
IN Christ,
Bob
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The 4th commandment says "THE SEVENTH DAY IS THE Sabbath". It is "specific" about WHICH day and is specific about WHY "FOR in SIX DAYS the Lord MADE... and RESTED the SEVENTH Day.. MADE it HOLY".
It points back to Christ the Creator's Work at Creation, to the literal fact of SIX leteral days of work and then a 7th literal day of rest.
Nothing else!
But that was a nice try.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That is just the point. THE way to KEEP Passover is NOT simply by "Remembering the 7th day of Creation week"!!
IT is by the Lev 23 process described for the PAssover LAMB.
Christ "OUR Passover" is "SLAIN".
There is no "Christ our CREATION SABBATH IS SLAIN" because the Creation SABBATH is NOT SLAIN!!
Adam and Eve celebrated in Gen 2:3 slaying "NOTHING".
This is true also of all Sabbath keeping Christians - STILL to this VERY DAY!
IN Christ,
Bob