Where's the Beef: faith/BAG or BAG/Faith

[Winman]

Because then you would have to deal with predestination in v.11 that comes before any of the aspects of salvation you have brought up. And then you would have to try to explain away the plain meaning of v.4 of being chosen before the foundation of the world.

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

What is so difficult about this? God chose before the foundation of the world that those who trust in Christ would have their sins forgiven and thus be holy and without blame. He predestined that believers would be adopted as children. It is speaking of believers here and what they receive. It is not saying that God has decided who would be saved and lost. Read it again and see for yourself.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

A person is not a son of God until they believe. When they believe, God sends the Holy Spirit (power) and they are adopted as sons. And notice you have to believe first to receive this power which is the Holy Spirit.

Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

What is so difficult there? Of course if you are adopted into the family, you also obtain an inheritance.

In both cases you misrepresent the word predestination. In vs 4 it says those who believe have been predestined unto the adoption of children, and in vs 11 it says those who believe have been predestined to receive an inheritance. It does not say we were predestined to be saved or lost. This is where you are in error. These things predestined only apply to believers.

 

[Amy.G]

Faith is a gift in the same sense that our mind, body and conscience are gifts. But we are created with these gifts and expected to be good stewards of them. People prove every day that they have faith, but they choose to put their faith in the wrong things. They trust in good works and false gods to save them because they do not want to submit to the only true and living God. Jesus said that people do not come to the Light because they do not want their deeds to be exposed. It's a choice that God has given every man, to know right from wrong, good from evil, as is clearly stated in Genesis.

Gen 3:22 ¶And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

At this point, Adam and Eve had died spiritually. If spiritual death means as the Calvinists say that man is unable to respond to God, how was Adam able to reach out and take of the tree of life? God banished them from the garden so that they would not eat of the tree of life. This means that they could have chosen to eat of it.

Every man since Adam has a knowledge of good and evil and the choice, as Adam did to take of the tree of life, who is Christ Jesus.

 

[Winman]

Good post Amy. Yes, the unsaved have the ability to choose good. The story of the prodigal son shows this.

Luke 15:11 And he said, A certain man had two sons:
12 And the younger of them said to his father, Father, give me the portion of goods that falleth to me. And he divided unto them his living.
13 And not many days after the younger son gathered all together, and took his journey into a far country, and there wasted his substance with riotous living.
14 And when he had spent all, there arose a mighty famine in that land; and he began to be in want.
15 And he went and joined himself to a citizen of that country; and he sent him into his fields to feed swine.
16 And he would fain have filled his belly with the husks that the swine did eat: and no man gave unto him.
17 And when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger!
18 I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee,
19 And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants.
20 And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.
21 And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son.
22 But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet:
23 And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill it; and let us eat, and be merry:
24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.
25 Now his elder son was in the field: and as he came and drew nigh to the house, he heard musick and dancing.
26 And he called one of the servants, and asked what these things meant.
27 And he said unto him, Thy brother is come; and thy father hath killed the fatted calf, because he hath received him safe and sound.
28 And he was angry, and would not go in: therefore came his father out, and intreated him.
29 And he answering said to his father, Lo, these many years do I serve thee, neither transgressed I at any time thy commandment: and yet thou never gavest me a kid, that I might make merry with my friends:
30 But as soon as this thy son was come, which hath devoured thy living with harlots, thou hast killed for him the fatted calf.
31 And he said unto him, Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine.
32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.

So, the Bible clearly shows a person lost in sin can repent and return to the Lord for forgiveness. And it is often when a person hits rock bottom, when they reap the rewards of sin that they realize their lost condition and come to Christ.

 

[canadyjd]

One thing you don't understand is that John Calvin has little to no credibility.

You should have addressed this to Jerome, since He is the one first quoting Calvin.

I was responding to Him.

However, since you mentioned credibility, I must say that you are the one that has no credibility in this debate.

The essence of a good debator is to be able to accurately state your opponent's view and then to demonstrate how they are wrong.

You haven't demonstrated that ability.

You come across as... well... as hateful.

Nevertheless

peace to youraying:

 

[Benefactor]

You should have addressed this to Jerome, since He is the one first quoting Calvin.

I was responding to Him.

However, since you mentioned credibility, I must say that you are the one that has no credibility in this debate.

The essence of a good debator is to be able to accurately state your opponent's view and then to demonstrate how they are wrong.

You haven't demonstrated that ability.

You come across as... well... as hateful.

Nevertheless

peace to youraying:

Sorry you feel that way, I have noticed that ACRT play the "hate" and “ad hominum” card a lot.

 

[OldRegular]

Whether you want to accept it or not, unsaved men know right from wrong and have the ability to choose between the two.

Winman

What was it in your psyche that caused you to believe when others don't. Until you can answer that question you really have nothing to say worth listening to or rather reading?:wavey:

 

[Amy.G]

I am still interested in a response to this post of mine.

Gen 3:22 ¶And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

At this point, Adam and Eve had died spiritually. If spiritual death means as the Calvinists say that man is unable to respond to God, how was Adam able to reach out and take of the tree of life? God banished them from the garden so that they would not eat of the tree of life. This means that they could have chosen to eat of it.

 

[Amy.G]

OR, I think Jesus made it clear that man must be willing to listen.

"He that hath ears, let him hear."

"I would, but ye would not".


Jesus said that people refuse to come to Him (not that He refuses to come to them) because they don't want their evil deeds to be exposed by the divine light of God.



He told the Pharisees that they had the Law and the Prophets, yet they would not listen them, and that is why they would not listen to Jesus.

Paul says that men know God, but refuse to glorify Him or give thanks. Because of their refusal, their hearts became darkened. Eventually God turns them over to their own desires.


There are countless scriptures that tell clearly of man's responsibility to receive Christ and his free will to do so. He can choose to receive the free gift or reject it. Salvation is still all of God, but God created us in His image, which includes personal volition. We have a mind, a will, a personality, knowledge of good and evil because we are created in the image of our Father. We are fallen, yes. But we have not lost the entire image.


When you ask why one person, believes and another does not, Jesus has already given the answer.

It reminds me of when my son was small and asked never ending questions, like "why is the grass green". Well, it's green because it contains chlorophyll. "But why is green". Because of the chlorophyll. "But WHY is it GREEN"? Because God made it that way.

We can choose or reject because God made us that way. His rules, His way.

 

[canadyjd]

Sorry you feel that way, I have noticed that ACRT play the "hate" and “ad hominum” card a lot.

Only when people use hateful words and ad hominum attacks.

I have debated with Allen and Webdog on these issues and have been able to be civil (at least most of the time:smilewinkgrin

And I tell you the truth that they are both able to accurately state the reformed position without personal attacks on those who hold to them. They engage the passages of scripture (though we disagree) and offer different explanations.

Just a little peace of unsolicited advice. You'll last a lot longer if you tone down the attacks and just make your case from scripture, engaging the texts that are given (not ignoring those you don't have answers for), and genuinely attempt to understand why those who hold to the reformed view believe what we believe.

peace to youraying:

 

[Lux et veritas]

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

What is so difficult about this? God chose before the foundation of the world that those who trust in Christ would have their sins forgiven and thus be holy and without blame.

He predestined that believers would be adopted as children. It is speaking of believers here and what they receive. It is not saying that God has decided who would be saved and lost. Read it again and see for yourself.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

A person is not a son of God until they believe. When they believe, God sends the Holy Spirit (power) and they are adopted as sons. And notice you have to believe first to receive this power which is the Holy Spirit.

Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

What is so difficult there? Of course if you are adopted into the family, you also obtain an inheritance.

In both cases you misrepresent the word predestination. In vs 4 it says those who believe have been predestined unto the adoption of children, and in vs 11 it says those who believe have been predestined to receive an inheritance. It does not say we were predestined to be saved or lost. This is where you are in error. These things predestined only apply to believers.

That is not what the text says. It says, God chose us in him (Christ) before the foundation of the world, that (to the end or purpose) we should be holy and without blame. . ."

The choosing (or election) here is for that purpose. God's elect were chosen. To what purpose? to be holy and without blame. You are inserting a clause into the scripture to fit your interpretation which is at best very unwise, and at worst, spiritually dangerous.

 

[Lux et veritas]

Sorry you feel that way, I have noticed that ACRT play the "hate" and “ad hominum” card a lot.

And you don't? You have started off almost every thread in a confrontational, argumentative, contentious spirit, along with mocking of those who hold to Reformed Theology, and have been responded to with patience, always dealing with the text, and yet you dare to say your opponents have 'hated' you?

Methinks you have a martyr's complex. Along with a decided lack of humility. Deal with the texts. Pose thoughtful questions. Respond with further arguments on the textual interpretation and you might find the whole process enlightening ... maybe even enjoyable.

But until you deal with the spiritual issues of your heart, all your arguments in the world are less than worthless. Even if you were 100% correct, 100% of the time (which you are not!), you still end up "losing" the argument by your attitude.

 

[Lux et veritas]

I am still interested in a response to this post of mine.

Quote:
Gen 3:22 ¶And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

At this point, Adam and Eve had died spiritually. If spiritual death means as the Calvinists say that man is unable to respond to God, how was Adam able to reach out and take of the tree of life? God banished them from the garden so that they would not eat of the tree of life. This means that they could have chosen to eat of it.[/QUOTE]

Amy, I would respectfully suggest to you that you do not understand the theological idea of what "spritual death" is. No Calvinist in the world would suggest it means Adam could not take fruit from the tree of life.

 

[Benefactor]

If you ACRT folks are finished beating up on me :tonofbricks: then lets get back to you answering this question;

List one single verse that teaches that regeneration precedes faith.

Where in the Bible can you find one verse that clearly states the opposite of the following;

Luke 7:50. And He said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace."

 

[Amy.G]

Amy, I would respectfully suggest to you that you do not understand the theological idea of what "spritual death" is. No Calvinist in the world would suggest it means Adam could not take fruit from the tree of life.

Rather than just saying that I don't understand, why don't you explain it to me.

What does it mean to be spiritually dead?

Was Adam spiritually dead?

 

[OldRegular]

If you ACRT folks are finished beating up on me :tonofbricks: then lets get back to you answering this question;

List one single verse that teaches that regeneration precedes faith.

Where in the Bible can you find one verse that clearly states the opposite of the following;

Luke 7:50. And He said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace."

Benefactor

What was it in your psyche that caused you to believe when others don't. Until you can answer that question you really have nothing to say worth listening to or rather reading?

 

[Benefactor]

Benefactor

What was it in your psyche that caused you to believe when others don't. Until you can answer that question you really have nothing to say worth listening to or rather reading?

I guess all you have are personal attacks. Not surprised you will not answer the simple clear straight forward question on regeneration preceding faith.

So, if you are up to it why not return to the discussion and stop the personal attacks, are you up to it?

 

[OldRegular]

OR, I think Jesus made it clear that man must be willing to listen.

"He that hath ears, let him hear."

"I would, but ye would not".

Unregenerate man is not willing to listen. Scripture tells us as I have so often posted the following about the unregenerate man:

1 Corinthians 2:14. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

The natural man is the unregenerate man. That is the reason that the Holy Spirit must grant spiritual life. That is exactly what Jesus Christ taught Nicodemus in John 3.

 

[Lux et veritas]

Rather than just saying that I don't understand, why don't you explain it to me.

What does it mean to be spiritually dead?

Was Adam spiritually dead?

Undoubtedly he was.

 

[OldRegular]

I guess all you have are personal attacks. Not surprised you will not answer the simple clear straight forward question on regeneration preceding faith.

So, if you are up to it why not return to the discussion and stop the personal attacks, are you up to it?

The question you asked has been answered many times by several people. You simply refuse to accept it. That is the reason I ask the following:

What was it in your psyche that caused you to believe when others don't. Until you can answer that question you really have nothing to say worth listening to or rather reading?

That is not a personal attack that IS a personal question but certainly you should be able to answer it if you believe what you say.

 

[Benefactor]

The question you asked has been answered many times by several people. You simply refuse to accept it. That is the reason I ask the following:

What was it in your psyche that caused you to believe when others don't. Until you can answer that question you really have nothing to say worth listening to or rather reading?

That is not a personal attack that IS a personal question but certainly you should be able to answer it if you believe what you say.

So you refuse to answer a simple question and no one has give one single verse that states that regeneration precedes faith, you haven't and others haven't. The reason you will not answer it is because such an answer does not exist so you do all you can to change the question and that is normal for Calvinist to do.

Where is the beef? One single clear verse that teaches that new birth comes before faith, just one.

Here again are some verses that teach what the Bible says:

Lunke 7:50 And He said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace."

Acts 15:8. "And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us;
9. and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.

Acts 20:21. solemnly testifying to both Jews and Greeks of repentance toward God and faith in our Lord Jesus Christ.

We know that faith precedes salvation and Acts 20:21 gives us a fuller picture of the order of salvation, "repentance toward God and faith in our Lord Jesus Christ"

Acts 26:15. "And I said, 'Who are You, Lord?' And the Lord said, 'I am Jesus whom you are persecuting. 16. 'But get up and stand on your feet; for this purpose I have appeared to you, to appoint you a minister and a witness not only to the things which you have seen, but also to the things in which I will appear to you; 17. rescuing you from the {Jewish} people and from the Gentiles, to whom I am sending you, 18. to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.'

Paul preaches their eyes are opened (not regenerated) they receive forgiveness of sins and inheritance among those who have been sanctified HOW, HOW IS THE QUESTION - BY FAITH

Acts 16:31. They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

Acta 2:21. 'AND IT SHALL BE THAT EVERYONE WHO CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.' They call because they believe, see R10:10

Acts 2:47. praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord was adding to their number day by day those who were being saved. (How were they being saved? That's right, repent, call on the name of the Lord and believe, have faith - then and only then will they be saved) God promises to save all who do, period. The order of salvation places regeneration last, after faith, repentance, and calling on the Lord.

Acts 16:30. and after he brought them out, he said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" 31. They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

If you want to understand Paul's theology accept this verse - regeneration comes after faith not before

FAITH FIRST SAVATION SECOND​

Romans 5:1. Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

Romans 8:24. For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he {already} sees? 25. But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it. Just another way of saying by faith you are saved

Romans 10:9. that if you confess with your mouth Jesus {as} Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10. for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11. For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."

Confess Jesus, believe in your heart about Jesus and what happens, say it again, what happens, that right the one who confesses and believes will then be saved. Order of salvation believes resulting in salvation. God said in the OT recorded here that a person who does it the Bible way will not be disappointed.

Romans 3:22. even {the} righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;


We all know that salvation is regeneration, the new birth, born from above, conversion which in several places uses the term "justified by faith". No where do we find salvation coming first but after one believes.

How do we know that regeneration is the same as slavation or that salvatoin is regeneration?

Titus 3:5. He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,


When a person follows the OR "order of salvation" as we have given above that person is saved as a result of faith, repentance, confessing the Lord Jesus Christ. The work of the Holy Spirit after we have faith, repent, and confess performs a miracle in us and it is described as "washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit"

When did it happen? After a person believes, repents, and confesses.