Which do you believe?

[Dale-c]

as a vessel of wrath.

Who brought up that term? I sure didn't.

Seems like I did read it in the Bible though.

Obviously when you bring my precious daughter into the picture it is a play on my emotions.
However, God is not ruled by emotion. And my emotion will not change an everlasting God.
In a practical note, I will raise her as one of the elect. I will teach her the gospel. That is my duty.
What God does in her heart is beyond my control.

 

[Jarthur001]

Any guess to how I voted?

Mountain Monergism

 

[Jarthur001]

==I don't know a Calvinist, including myself, who would say that man does not have a choice. Man does have a choice. However, and this is the big problem, man will always choose to go against God (Rom 3:10-12). Man's "free-will" or "choice" always leads him to make the wrong choice. Why? Because lost man is dead in sin, in slavery to sin, and in love with the world. They are enemies of Holy God, children of wrath, and can do nothing to please Him. The only way a person can chose to come to Christ, can chose to believe, is for God to bring that person to a point of saving faith.




==Jesus said that all the Father has given Him will come to Him and will recieve eternal life (Jn 6:37, 17:2) and will finally be with Him where He is (Jn 17:24). Jesus also said that the one who comes to Him will not be cast away (Jn 6:37). That has a two fold meaning:

1. They will not be turned away. Nobody whom the Father has given to the Son and drawn to the Son will be turned away by the Son when they come to the Son. Why? Because they were given to the Son by the Father and the Son gives them eternal life and desires them to be with Him (Jn 17:2, 24). This means that those who truly come to Jesus will never be turned away. Nobody, and I mean nobody, who has truly desired to be saved and who has turned to Jesus has ever been turned away. All who come to Jesus, all who believe in Him, will be saved. What does the Scriptures say? "Whoever will call on the Name of the Lord will be saved" (Rom 10:13).

2. They will not be kicked out. Once a person has been accepted by Jesus, Jesus will never turn on them and cast them away from Him (Jn 6:38-39, 10:27-30). This means that once a person has truly been saved they cannot lose their salvation.




==The first part of that statement is simply not true. So either you don't understand Calvinist teaching or you are willfully misrepresenting it. God knows which is the truth and I will not play judge in that matter. Calvinists such as myself, RC Sproul, John MacArthur, and others do believe that "whosoever will may come" (Jn 3:16). However we also believe that nobody, and I mean nobody, will come on their own. For a person to come to Christ God must draw them to Him. Apart from that nobody will come to Christ. We believe in whosoever will and we believe that the elect will, the rest will not.



==I am really not sure what that statement means. I know of nothing in Scripture that teaches that a person can be saved, will be saved, apart from Divine election (Jn 6:44, Rom 8:29-30, Jn 17:2, etc).

good post brother

 

[webdog]

Obviously when you bring my precious daughter into the picture it is a play on my emotions.

No, it's just pointing out the flawed logical conclusion your theology teaches. Are you prepared to admit you love your daughter more than God?

 

[Dale-c]

No, it's just pointing out the flawed logical conclusion your theology teaches. Are you prepared to admit you love your daughter more than God?

Does God not love her?
How do you know that?
You don't know that.

I will have to admit I have never considered loving someone more that God loves them.

Do you believe that God hates some people?

 

[Jarthur001]

...and if she doesn't believe, you can know that you love your daughter more than God does...as if she doesn't believe, God hates her, and created her as a vessel of wrath. This is the god of the Bible? You (as a child of God who knows His love) really think you can love your daughter more than God who IS love?!?

does God have the right to make a vessal of wrath?

 

[webdog]

Does God not love her?

I believe He does. According to your theology, if she dies without believing in Christ, she was never the elect, meaning God hates her guts.

How do you know that?

How do I know He loves your daughter? God so loved the world (Kosmos - universe). If your daughter falls somewhere in God's universe, it applies.

You don't know that.

Ah, but I do!

Do you believe that God hates some people?

If you are referring to sane and miseo...yest. Our definition of hate, as witholding His love? No.

 

[webdog]

does God have the right to make a vessal of wrath?

Make a vessel of wrath...or create a vessel of wrath. Huge difference...

 

[Jarthur001]

Make a vessel of wrath...or create a vessel of wrath. Huge difference...

does God have a right to make a vessel of wrath?
does God have a right to create a vessel of wrath?

I see no difference...but take your pick...or answer both

 

[webdog]

I see no difference...but take your pick...or answer both

God does and can have the right to do as He pleases. He does make some vessels's of wrath...but He doesn't create them as such. The fact you see no difference would make me believe you are leaning more towards the hyper, johnp camp...that God creates makind to sin, and then punishes him for it.

 

[Jarthur001]

God does and can have the right to do as He pleases. He does make some vessels's of wrath...but He doesn't create them as such. The fact you see no difference would make me believe you are leaning more towards the hyper, johnp camp...that God creates makind to sin, and then punishes him for it.

what is

please explain what makes "create" different then "makes"

Lets use this short line.

I make a pie.
I create a pie.

here is another one...

God made the world.
God created the world.

These words are different because?????????????????

 

[webdog]

You can make someone into a great basketball player.

That person was not created as a basketball player.

 

[Jarthur001]

You can make someone into a great basketball player.

That person was not created as a basketball player.

I can't a make anyone a good ball player let alone a great one.

But we are talking about God....

When God makes...is this the same as creating?

BTW...God can make and create a GREAT ballplayer...because it is the same meaning.

 

[Jarthur001]

Make

Synonyms….

Create
Build
Construct
Form
Compose


This is to silly to deny…come now

The Bible even uses the words between each other.

 

[webdog]

God took man who refuses His Son, and MAKES him a vessel of wrath.

That person's life actions was the cause of him being a vessel of wrath...not that God CREATED him as such.

You sound more hyper calvinist by each post...

 

[Jarthur001]

God took man who refuses His Son, and MAKES him a vessel of wrath.

That person's life actions was the cause of him being a vessel of wrath...not that God CREATED him as such.

You sound more hyper calvinist by each post...

His actions caused him to be a vessel of wrath? You see actions as the base of how God makes you? If you do good...God will make you good.

Have you ever noticed this, that when God "makes", He makes from a lump that is one? So whatever that lump is...good or bad....actions or no actions.....from that lump of nothing God makes a vessel of honour...and from that very same lump God makes a vessel of dishonour

21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Another reason that causes me to question your doctrine here is that election and salvation are never shown to be based on actions.

We have a great picture of this in Paul and the rich young ruler. Paul was killing people...(bad actions)..and was saved. RYR was keeping the law...(good action)...and was not saved

Also...is this not the point of verse 11?

11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth

being not born...(same lump).......not doing good...and not doing evil....(no action)....so that it is clear why God elects....not of works...(not of actions)....but of Him that calleth. (back when they were just one lump).

 

[Jarthur001]

God took man who refuses His Son, and MAKES him a vessel of wrath.

That person's life actions was the cause of him being a vessel of wrath...not that God CREATED him as such.

You sound more hyper calvinist by each post...

sorry....i made two post here.

so.....

I deleted the 2nd one and added this.

Notice that you have taken 3 chip shots at me...saying i'm hyper.
Notice also...up to this last post all I have done is ask what you believe.


Keep them coming....I can take it.

 

[Sularis]

Wordplay

I was always taught - that make and create while same were not same same

There are areas where make and create overlap in meaning - but the very core of the words have different meanings

Make presupposes tools stuff from which something can be made

Create is from scratch - no tools no stuff

Back to the point

Let's see what cliche's can i trot out so that they can be ignored?

"With great power comes great responsibility"

I mean its not really that hard to figure out - If we cant do something - then how can we be held accountable for that?

If we are responsible for our sins - which we are - then somewhere along the line - if only for the barest fraction of a femtosecond we had the ability to choose.

Not the ability to do - we have never had that - Adam messed that up with the curse of sin nature - but we have the ability to go oh wait this is wrong - um God need some help here - save me - help me

That man does not degenerate into an orgy of sin - that there exist people who can do the very image of good - not good - since it is without proper motivation - but the fact that man can come up with laws and obey them suggests an ability to choose - again NOT do NOT desire just CHOICE

We have no power of our own

 

[webdog]

sorry....i made two post here.

so.....

I deleted the 2nd one and added this.

Notice that you have taken 3 chip shots at me...saying i'm hyper.
Notice also...up to this last post all I have done is ask what you believe.


Keep them coming....I can take it.

I believe I stated you are sounding more hyper by the post...so please quote me correctly.

Hardly questioning your salvation, as you have done on the other thread where you state free willers serve a different god...that was deleted.

 

[webdog]

His actions caused him to be a vessel of wrath? You see actions as the base of how God makes you? If you do good...God will make you good.

When confronted, erect strawmen. I don't believe I EVER claimed a works based salvation.

Have you ever noticed this, that when God "makes", He makes from a lump that is one? So whatever that lump is...good or bad....actions or no actions.....from that lump of nothing God makes a vessel of honour...and from that very same lump God makes a vessel of dishonour

God makes FROM a lump...He forms the vessel of wrath FROM the lump...He doesn't state HOW this is done. You take it upon yourself to fill in the blanks for Him. This is a similie, btw. I don't know how you can base an entire systematic theology on a similie.