Which do you believe?

Well said and worth bolding for those of us who are getting older! :jesus:

skypair

 

Skypair, I see no point in discussion this with you when you will not be honest. You know that I have never said that I can't know.
I can't know another's heart. BUt I can most certainly know of my own salvation!

 

To say that this is a choice is just beyond me. There is no choice when a man cannot choose. It is comical, when you say a man can choose, but, oh by the way he will not choose because God will not change him so he can. What kind of choice is that???

 

I have a choice to order mustard on my hamburger.
But I hate mustard and will not order it.
It is because it is against my nature to order mustard.
If I did order mustard, they WOULD give it to me.
If someone does choose God, He will grant them salvation. But no one will ever choose God unless He has first chosen them.

Please, Bro Bob and Skypair and any others:

Why do some choose God and others do not?
Please give me a reason or two, or more if you have them?
WHy do some make that choice while others do not.

 

Martin, people who do not understand Calvinism continue to commit the awful fallacy of straw man arguments.

Whoever said that understanding the sovereignty of God was going to be easy? It is a difficult subject: "What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be!" (Rom.9:14). Calvinism simply puts God and his sovereignty where they belong, at the center of our salvation and sanctification and eventual glorification.

 

According to CA, God won't let them.

 

Its like a life boat, the Capt. loads 20 of 100 drowning people and pulls away, leaving the others to drown. Don't tell me that there is not room for all, because Heaven is as big as God wants it.

Some choice, that drowning person had, still kicking in the water. You telling me that he does not want on the safety of that boat, if given a chance by the Capt. We will never know now will we, for the Capt. pulled out without giving him a chance to get on the boat.

 

Isa. 55:
6: Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:
7: Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.


1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

James 4:
5: Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy?
6: But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.
7: Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
8: Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.
9: Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness.
10: Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.
11: Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother,

 

First, that is not true.
Second, I already know what I believe anyway.
Please tell me why YOu think some believe and others do not....using your lifeboat illustration, why to some choose to stay and drown?

 

According to you it was not their choice, it was the Capt's.

It is true the CA say God will not let them. CA says that God refuses to change their heart and without a changed heart, He will not let them. At least stand up for what you preach.

How come I never see CA in these Kingdom debates?

 

It ironic that we are supposed to use scripture to teach the world, but when it does not fit someone's theology, then they compact it to a specific group.

Jhn 12:32And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all [men] unto me.

When Jesus died He made an atonement for all men and presented it to the Father. For any man to recieve that atonement or deliverance, he must believe.

Jhn 8:24I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am [he], ye shall die in your sins.

I take God at His word. ALL men.
Tit 2:
11: For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
12: Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
13: Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
14: Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

2Tim 3:
16: All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

 

Still does not answer this;
2Tim 3:
16: All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
Are you saying we should throw the book of James out with the dishwater? What about Hebrews, Galations, Corth. etc.

John 6:

35: And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
36: But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
37: All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38: For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39: And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day

I do not guess you saw the word "believe" in verse 36, the Father didn't give Him any that "believe not" (Maybe you missed that part?)

Now, it is not my words but the words of the Lord that He made an atonement for all men, But they must believe.
Again, the atonement is there with the Father and to those who believe it is applied to their soul.
You can call it universal if you want but that is just a strawman that does not work.

You all sure have a hard time with ALL don't you, and WHOLE, ALL MEN, WHOLE WORLD. or all of the following:

1 Timothy 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

1 John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

This is the weirdest one of all. Why would Jesus tell us to Love our enemies when He did not love them, don't make sense now does it.

Romans 5:
6: For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
7: For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
8: But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9: Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
10: For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
11: And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

Do you see where you have to receive the atonement?

I agree that one of us is failing to realize what ALL means.

 

Funny Bob how hardly anyone stopped to ponder whether both truths could be true (like 3 &1). Most just ignored the suggestion like it wasn't there and kept bombing away at the other side. They must have a lot of money invested in one school of thought or the other (C or A)

 

I think that it is funny watching both of you mangle the texts you don't like.

When I teach on Rom 8:28-39 or Eph 1:3-14, or of texts on the other side, this is one of the illustrations I have used, to have a teen holding a garbage bag on each side of me. I will hold up sheets of paper with "arminian verses", and wad them up and throw them away, then I do the same with "calvinist" verses, until both bags are filled. Then I ask the congregation which bag they want thrown out. The truth is that neither one of your attempts to make the texts bend your way has been effective. Here is how W.A. Criswell explained it in the Criswell Study Bible, page 1334:

"...8:29 Predestination and election have always been the subject of theological Inquiry. First Peter 1:2, God's foreknowledge logically precedes the elective or predestinative act of God. Another truth to be affirmed is that the Scriptures present salvation as viewed in teo very different spheres. The earthly sphere sees man as totally responsible for his actions and faced of choosing either to reject or to accept the atonement of Christ. The heavenly never contradicts the earthly, but it does add a new and infinitely more profound dimension declares that God has an elective purpose and that all that takes place ultimately feeds that purpose, including the salvation of the elect. Difficulty arises in man's seeking to reconcile the heavenly insight with the earthly perspective. Wrong answers are result of erroneous questions. Instead of attempting harmonization of those truths understood only by God (11:34), the question to be answered ought to be, election present in the Scripture?"
Four distinct answers emerge from this doctrine of election. (1) As long as election is in the Bible, salvation must be the gift of God alone. Predestination, framed in God's foreknowledge assures us that salvation is from start finish an act of God. (2) The work of God's elective purpose guarantees the perpetuity of salvation. Unthinkable that one of God's elect could forfeit his salvation. Those whom He has justified He will glorify. So certain is the sequence that "glorified" is an aorist tense in Greek, meaning that glorification has already happened in the mind of God (w. 30-39). How could God lose one of His elect? (3) The doctrine of election assures us of a peculiar providence which attends the way of every believer. If God's heart is set on us in His elective purpose, we may be sure of His concern and providential intervention on our behalf. (4) Finally, that same personal providence bound up in election extends through of history. There is no runaway world. God's hand is systematically guiding the age to its intendedconsummation (w. 21-22)...".

 

And so the wheel keeps turning.
So certain is the sequence that "glorified" is an aorist tense in Greek, meaning that glorification has already happened in the mind of God (w. 30-39).
Now, if God does this, and sees this, He also can see who believes and who does not and know who to predestinate, to justify and to glorify, doesn't He? The reason God knows who will be glorified is He sees all at once. The end from the beginning. He is all in all.

I think it is comical too, you question both of us and jump right in on the CA belief.

I never saw you explain "God so loved the world" that "whosoever".

I believe "salvation" is all of the Lord also, for no man can save himself. One thing we can do by the creature being created subject to vanity, but not willing, but by reason of Him who subjected the same in Hope, and that is to cease to do evil and learn to do good and follow the "good" Spirit. Which all was God's doing, not ours.

Depends on who it is talking to now doesn't it. I mean you won't accept "whole world", so why would not not question who that scripture is talking to. I mean I see where Paul was calling Israel "the elect".