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Which do you believe?
- Thread starter Martin
- Start date
Sularis said:
==I don't know a Calvinist, including myself, who would say that man does not have a choice. Man does have a choice. However, and this is the big problem, man will always choose to go against God (Rom 3:10-12). Man's "free-will" or "choice" always leads him to make the wrong choice. Why? Because lost man is dead in sin, in slavery to sin, and in love with the world. They are enemies of Holy God, children of wrath, and can do nothing to please Him. The only way a person can chose to come to Christ, can chose to believe, is for God to bring that person to a point of saving faith.
Sularis said:
==Jesus said that all the Father has given Him will come to Him and will recieve eternal life (Jn 6:37, 17:2) and will finally be with Him where He is (Jn 17:24). Jesus also said that the one who comes to Him will not be cast away (Jn 6:37). That has a two fold meaning:
1. They will not be turned away. Nobody whom the Father has given to the Son and drawn to the Son will be turned away by the Son when they come to the Son. Why? Because they were given to the Son by the Father and the Son gives them eternal life and desires them to be with Him (Jn 17:2, 24). This means that those who truly come to Jesus will never be turned away. Nobody, and I mean nobody, who has truly desired to be saved and who has turned to Jesus has ever been turned away. All who come to Jesus, all who believe in Him, will be saved. What does the Scriptures say? "Whoever will call on the Name of the Lord will be saved" (Rom 10:13).
2. They will not be kicked out. Once a person has been accepted by Jesus, Jesus will never turn on them and cast them away from Him (Jn 6:38-39, 10:27-30). This means that once a person has truly been saved they cannot lose their salvation.
Sularis said:
==The first part of that statement is simply not true. So either you don't understand Calvinist teaching or you are willfully misrepresenting it. God knows which is the truth and I will not play judge in that matter. Calvinists such as myself, RC Sproul, John MacArthur, and others do believe that "whosoever will may come" (Jn 3:16). However we also believe that nobody, and I mean nobody, will come on their own. For a person to come to Christ God must draw them to Him. Apart from that nobody will come to Christ. We believe in whosoever will and we believe that the elect will, the rest will not.
Sularis said:
==I am really not sure what that statement means. I know of nothing in Scripture that teaches that a person can be saved, will be saved, apart from Divine election (Jn 6:44, Rom 8:29-30, Jn 17:2, etc).
Brother Bob
New Member
To say that this is a choice is just beyond me. There is no choice when a man cannot choose. It is comical, when you say a man can choose, but, oh by the way he will not choose because God will not change him so he can. What kind of choice is that???
I have a choice to order mustard on my hamburger.
But I hate mustard and will not order it.
It is because it is against my nature to order mustard.
If I did order mustard, they WOULD give it to me.
If someone does choose God, He will grant them salvation. But no one will ever choose God unless He has first chosen them.
Please, Bro Bob and Skypair and any others:
Why do some choose God and others do not?
Please give me a reason or two, or more if you have them?
WHy do some make that choice while others do not.
Martin said:
Martin, people who do not understand Calvinism continue to commit the awful fallacy of straw man arguments.
Whoever said that understanding the sovereignty of God was going to be easy? It is a difficult subject: "What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be!" (Rom.9:14). Calvinism simply puts God and his sovereignty where they belong, at the center of our salvation and sanctification and eventual glorification.
Brother Bob
New Member
According to CA, God won't let them.
Brother Bob
New Member
Its like a life boat, the Capt. loads 20 of 100 drowning people and pulls away, leaving the others to drown. Don't tell me that there is not room for all, because Heaven is as big as God wants it.
Some choice, that drowning person had, still kicking in the water. You telling me that he does not want on the safety of that boat, if given a chance by the Capt. We will never know now will we, for the Capt. pulled out without giving him a chance to get on the boat.
Some choice, that drowning person had, still kicking in the water. You telling me that he does not want on the safety of that boat, if given a chance by the Capt. We will never know now will we, for the Capt. pulled out without giving him a chance to get on the boat.
Brother Bob said:
==From a Biblical point of view man has an enslaved will and not a free will. A lost man is dead in sin, an enemy of God, a child of wrath, and a slave to sin. There is not one thing they can do to get right with God. In fact Scripture teaches us that they don't even want to get right with God:
"There is none who understands,
There is none who seeks for God;
All have turned aside, together they have become useless;
There is none who does good,
There is not even one." -Romans 3:10-12
A lost man does not understand his dangerous situation, he does not seek for the true God, he has turned from God, and can do nothing to change his situation. All of his choices are sinful, he can do nothing to please God. The only way a spiritually dead person, who is an enemy of God, can choose to come to Christ is if God draws them. Apart from that nobody will choose to believe in Jesus (Jn 6:44).
This is the Biblical position. I know it is not popular even among Christians. That was true even in Paul's day (Rom 9:19-20).
TCGreek said:
==True. It is sad to see men such as Adrian Rogers, Jerry Falwell, Jerry Vines, Ergun Caner, and others fall victim to such strawmen arguments. I have heard arguments from these folks that are not at all Biblical. Some of their comments have even made me cringe. I know some aspects of Calvinism, the doctrines of grace, can be difficult. However that is no excuse for some of the unBiblical comments I have heard over the years. I don't understand everything, and I don't claim to be a scholar, but I pray that I am always faithful to the Word of God no matter how unpopular it may be.
Brother Bob
New Member
Isa. 55:
6: Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:
7: Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.
1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
James 4:
5: Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy?
6: But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.
7: Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
8: Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.
9: Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness.
10: Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.
11: Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother,
6: Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:
7: Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.
1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
James 4:
5: Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy?
6: But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.
7: Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
8: Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.
9: Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness.
10: Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.
11: Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother,
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Brother Bob
New Member
According to you it was not their choice, it was the Capt's.
It is true the CA say God will not let them. CA says that God refuses to change their heart and without a changed heart, He will not let them. At least stand up for what you preach.
How come I never see CA in these Kingdom debates?
It is true the CA say God will not let them. CA says that God refuses to change their heart and without a changed heart, He will not let them. At least stand up for what you preach.
How come I never see CA in these Kingdom debates?
Brother Bob said:
==Only those the Father has given to the Son will come to Jesus (Jn 6:37). Any and all men may call on Jesus to be saved but only those the Father gives to Jesus actually will.
Brother Bob said:
==Christ's death paid for the sins of John, his listeners/readers, and people throughout the whole world. The phrase "whole world" does not automatically refer to every single individual. If Christ paid for a person's sins why would they have to enter hell to pay for those sins? They would not. Christ died for those who He would save and those come from the whole world (ex: Rev 7:9).
Brother Bob said:
==God is patient towards who? "YOU" (us-ward). Who is "you"? The believers he is writing to (2Pet 1:1). The passage is refering to the elect. God is not willing that any of the elect (you) should perish but that all shall come to salvation.
Brother Bob said:
==James is talking to believers, is he not?
Brother Bob
New Member
It ironic that we are supposed to use scripture to teach the world, but when it does not fit someone's theology, then they compact it to a specific group.
Jhn 12:32And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all [men] unto me.
When Jesus died He made an atonement for all men and presented it to the Father. For any man to recieve that atonement or deliverance, he must believe.
Jhn 8:24I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am [he], ye shall die in your sins.
I take God at His word. ALL men.
Tit 2:
11: For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
12: Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
13: Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
14: Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
2Tim 3:
16: All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
Brother Bob said:
==Actually I am just paying attention to the context of the verse. If that is a crime then I must confess to being guilty. They taught me the bad habit of paying attention to context in seminary. Blasted folks!!!
Brother Bob said:
==From the way you use that verse (responding to John 6:37,44) I must assume you believe/teach universal salvation. After all Jesus clearly states that:
"All that the Father gives Me will come to Me...that of all He has given Me I lose nothing but raise it up on the last day" (Jn 6:37,39, see also 44).
Since all who are given to Jesus come to Jesus, and since all who come are kept and raised up, your use of John 12:32 must imply that you believe in/teach universalism. If all men (individuals) are drawn to Christ then all men (individually) are saved.
Of course that is not so there is no such thing as universal salvation (as I am sure you agree). So what about John 12:32? I see two possible ways of understanding it. First: John 12:32 may not be refering to the same drawing as mentioned in John 6:37. The drawing mentioned in John 6:37 always results in salvation (irresistible grace). If the drawing in John 12:32 is not the same as John 6:37 then John 12:32 maybe be refering to the universal offer of salvation and not irresistible grace (drawing to salvation). Second: It seems very likely, however, that the phrase "all men" probably is generic for people from all tribes/nations/tongues (etc). In this case John 12:32 and John 6:37 are refering to the same drawing (irresistible grace). Jesus draws all the Father has given Him to Himself and they are kept secure and raised up on the last day (Jn 6:37-39).
Brother Bob said:
==Of course people must believe. However only those the Father has given to the Son will believe (Jn 6:37, Rom 8:29). As for the atonement (particular or general), I think particular atonement makes better Biblical sense. Why would Jesus die to save individuals who the Father had not given to Him? After all, He would not even pray for them (Jn 17:9). Jesus died for His sheep (the elect, His people) and not for goats (Jn 10:15, Matt 1:21).
Brother Bob said:
=="All men" (etc) can be specific (every single person) or generic (all types of men, etc). You are failing to distinguish between the two meanings (both of which are found in Scripture).
Brother Bob
New Member
Still does not answer this;
2Tim 3:
16: All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
Are you saying we should throw the book of James out with the dishwater? What about Hebrews, Galations, Corth. etc.
John 6:
35: And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
36: But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
37: All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38: For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39: And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day
I do not guess you saw the word "believe" in verse 36, the Father didn't give Him any that "believe not" (Maybe you missed that part?)
Now, it is not my words but the words of the Lord that He made an atonement for all men, But they must believe.
Again, the atonement is there with the Father and to those who believe it is applied to their soul.
You can call it universal if you want but that is just a strawman that does not work.
You all sure have a hard time with ALL don't you, and WHOLE, ALL MEN, WHOLE WORLD.
or all of the following:1 Timothy 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
1 John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
This is the weirdest one of all. Why would Jesus tell us to Love our enemies when He did not love them, don't make sense now does it.
Romans 5:
6: For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
7: For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
8: But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9: Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
10: For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
11: And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
Do you see where you have to receive the atonement?
I agree that one of us is failing to realize what ALL means.
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Lacy Evans
New Member
Funny Bob how hardly anyone stopped to ponder whether both truths could be true (like 3 &1). Most just ignored the suggestion like it wasn't there and kept bombing away at the other side. They must have a lot of money invested in one school of thought or the other (C or A)
I think that it is funny watching both of you mangle the texts you don't like.
When I teach on Rom 8:28-39 or Eph 1:3-14, or of texts on the other side, this is one of the illustrations I have used, to have a teen holding a garbage bag on each side of me. I will hold up sheets of paper with "arminian verses", and wad them up and throw them away, then I do the same with "calvinist" verses, until both bags are filled. Then I ask the congregation which bag they want thrown out. The truth is that neither one of your attempts to make the texts bend your way has been effective. Here is how W.A. Criswell explained it in the Criswell Study Bible, page 1334:
"...8:29 Predestination and election have always been the subject of theological Inquiry. First Peter 1:2, God's foreknowledge logically precedes the elective or predestinative act of God. Another truth to be affirmed is that the Scriptures present salvation as viewed in teo very different spheres. The earthly sphere sees man as totally responsible for his actions and faced of choosing either to reject or to accept the atonement of Christ. The heavenly never contradicts the earthly, but it does add a new and infinitely more profound dimension declares that God has an elective purpose and that all that takes place ultimately feeds that purpose, including the salvation of the elect. Difficulty arises in man's seeking to reconcile the heavenly insight with the earthly perspective. Wrong answers are result of erroneous questions. Instead of attempting harmonization of those truths understood only by God (11:34), the question to be answered ought to be, election present in the Scripture?"
Four distinct answers emerge from this doctrine of election. (1) As long as election is in the Bible, salvation must be the gift of God alone. Predestination, framed in God's foreknowledge assures us that salvation is from start finish an act of God. (2) The work of God's elective purpose guarantees the perpetuity of salvation. Unthinkable that one of God's elect could forfeit his salvation. Those whom He has justified He will glorify. So certain is the sequence that "glorified" is an aorist tense in Greek, meaning that glorification has already happened in the mind of God (w. 30-39). How could God lose one of His elect? (3) The doctrine of election assures us of a peculiar providence which attends the way of every believer. If God's heart is set on us in His elective purpose, we may be sure of His concern and providential intervention on our behalf. (4) Finally, that same personal providence bound up in election extends through of history. There is no runaway world. God's hand is systematically guiding the age to its intendedconsummation (w. 21-22)...".
When I teach on Rom 8:28-39 or Eph 1:3-14, or of texts on the other side, this is one of the illustrations I have used, to have a teen holding a garbage bag on each side of me. I will hold up sheets of paper with "arminian verses", and wad them up and throw them away, then I do the same with "calvinist" verses, until both bags are filled. Then I ask the congregation which bag they want thrown out. The truth is that neither one of your attempts to make the texts bend your way has been effective. Here is how W.A. Criswell explained it in the Criswell Study Bible, page 1334:
"...8:29 Predestination and election have always been the subject of theological Inquiry. First Peter 1:2, God's foreknowledge logically precedes the elective or predestinative act of God. Another truth to be affirmed is that the Scriptures present salvation as viewed in teo very different spheres. The earthly sphere sees man as totally responsible for his actions and faced of choosing either to reject or to accept the atonement of Christ. The heavenly never contradicts the earthly, but it does add a new and infinitely more profound dimension declares that God has an elective purpose and that all that takes place ultimately feeds that purpose, including the salvation of the elect. Difficulty arises in man's seeking to reconcile the heavenly insight with the earthly perspective. Wrong answers are result of erroneous questions. Instead of attempting harmonization of those truths understood only by God (11:34), the question to be answered ought to be, election present in the Scripture?"
Four distinct answers emerge from this doctrine of election. (1) As long as election is in the Bible, salvation must be the gift of God alone. Predestination, framed in God's foreknowledge assures us that salvation is from start finish an act of God. (2) The work of God's elective purpose guarantees the perpetuity of salvation. Unthinkable that one of God's elect could forfeit his salvation. Those whom He has justified He will glorify. So certain is the sequence that "glorified" is an aorist tense in Greek, meaning that glorification has already happened in the mind of God (w. 30-39). How could God lose one of His elect? (3) The doctrine of election assures us of a peculiar providence which attends the way of every believer. If God's heart is set on us in His elective purpose, we may be sure of His concern and providential intervention on our behalf. (4) Finally, that same personal providence bound up in election extends through of history. There is no runaway world. God's hand is systematically guiding the age to its intendedconsummation (w. 21-22)...".
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Brother Bob
New Member
And so the wheel keeps turning.
So certain is the sequence that "glorified" is an aorist tense in Greek, meaning that glorification has already happened in the mind of God (w. 30-39).
Now, if God does this, and sees this, He also can see who believes and who does not and know who to predestinate, to justify and to glorify, doesn't He? The reason God knows who will be glorified is He sees all at once. The end from the beginning. He is all in all.
I think it is comical too, you question both of us and jump right in on the CA belief.
I never saw you explain "God so loved the world" that "whosoever".
I believe "salvation" is all of the Lord also, for no man can save himself. One thing we can do by the creature being created subject to vanity, but not willing, but by reason of Him who subjected the same in Hope, and that is to cease to do evil and learn to do good and follow the "good" Spirit. Which all was God's doing, not ours.
Depends on who it is talking to now doesn't it. I mean you won't accept "whole world", so why would not not question who that scripture is talking to. I mean I see where Paul was calling Israel "the elect".
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