Which is really the most tragic story?

That is the basis of your entire argument against my view. You are arguing that if God KNOWS something PRIOR to creating it then he MUST have determined ("causally effected") it to be as it is in such a way that it could not be otherwise.

Oh, well then you need to explain to me what you meant when you said, "You have God in your system knowing beforehand all that will happen if he makes everything the way he makes it and yet he goes right ahead and makes it that way anyway..."

Which certainly seems to imply that God must have predetermined all things by foreknowing what he was creating. If not, explain your intent?

Now, can you please define omniscience and predetermination. Please point out any distinctions. Also, if you don't mind, please give us an example of God's foreknowledge of something versus his predetermination of something. Thank you.

 

Yet you seem to think your choice of terms is better? Interesting.

Why not stick with His terms? Keep cooing Luke, otherwise you step into unknown worlds and speculations which could contradict the 'coos' of scripture.

Good thing you are here to correct the terms God chose to use to reveal Himself, huh?

And do you think your language is better suited to describe what God has done? If not, then why are you doing so? Just say, like the scripture that God chooses but we don't really understand how that works because 'his ways are higher than our ways.' The same answer you SHOULD give when someone asks if God predetermined everything since He foreknows everything prior to creating it?

Can God exist independent of creation? Yes or no?

 

Omniscience is only a problem IF you accept your premise that full foreknowledge prior to creation equals predetermination, which we do not. God foreknowing what free creatures originate themselves is different from God predetermining what creatures will do.

Your whole premise is based on the phrase "prior to creation." But when is that to an eternal being, Luke? When did creation not exist to Him? How did creation ever come to be if there is an eternal past? Hasn't the eternal past prior to creation come to an end now that creation exists? How can that be if it is eternal? See what I mean? There is no such concept as "PRIOR TO CREATION" with an enteral infinite creator, yet your entire argument hinges on this phrase. It is non-sensical to attempt to speculate about such things regarding the cause and effect nature of such high matters.

Listen, we can continue when you define "omniscience," "predetermination" and give examples of each.

 

I don't know how else to explain the distinction to you, Luke. Maybe if you take the time to define Omniscience and Predetermination, and then explaining their differences according to your view and giving examples of each this will be more clear. This is my third time to make this request. I'm not trying to be difficult, but I really do believe it will help you see the distinction I'm attempting to draw here.

I'm not sure how that answer addresses what I asked? Can you go back and read what I asked and respond? Thanks

 

Equating scripture more poetic physical descriptions of God with its clear theological teachings about what God does seems somewhat subjective, don't you think? I mean what keeps you from taking any somewhat mysterious act of God, pronouncing it to be "anthropomorphic" and contradicting it on that basis?

Scripture: God makes choices
Luke: "That is anthropomorphic: God doesn't really make choices"

Why can't you do that with every thing scripture says?

Scripture: God condemns the ungodly
Answer: That is anthropomorphic: God doesn't really condemn the ungodly

Scripture: God saves believers
Answer: That is anthropomorphic: God doesn't really save believers.

Plus, even in regard to God's physical appearances. How do you know what he looks like? He is spirit and doesn't have a body like we do, granted, but we don't know how he will manifest himself to us and what physical attributes he will have. I don't assume that God doesn't have hands, as apparently you do. I just understand He is DIFFERENT than us, and He certainly makes choices DIFFERENTLY than us, but I don't need to say he doesn't make choices and contradict scripture.

What keeps you from arbitrarily concluding that the scriptures which teach of God's knowing all things as being "anthropomorphic?" Maybe he doesn't "KNOW" in the same way men "KNOW" things? Ever considered that? Why accept scripture revelation that He knows everything but not its revelation that He makes choices?

How about we both agree that God KNOWS things differently than we KNOW them and God makes choices differently than men make choices, and that God's appearance is different than man's appearance. Okay? We don't have to contradict scripture by saying the opposite of what it says just because we don't fully understand how it works.

 

Ok, now I get it. You quoted all those questions together and I didn't follow which one you were answering.

Ok... When is "BEFORE he made it" to an eternally existent, infinite being? You are thinking linearly. As if God existed for all eternity PRIOR to creation and then exists for all eternity following creation...like creation is a spot on an eternal time line or something. But how does the point on the eternal time line ever come to pass if its eternal?

What you don't seem to be grasping is that 'before he made it' is a statement based on TIME. And 'before he made it (time)' there can be no such concept that we can fully grasp in our finite understanding. "Before" is a linear word... a concept based in TIME. And before God created time there was no such thing as BEFORE or AFTER. How can you speculate as to what God did or didn't do PRIOR to creation as if it must be in accordance with the cause/effect relationship within TIME not yet created?

 

Yet, his nature and attributes are being defined by the same authority as the words you have arbitrarily deemed anthropomorphic. What keeps anyone from dismissing your interpretation of God's attributes and nature as being anthropomorphic?

You read a verse that says, "God is all knowing." And you take that to mean God knows things in the same manner men knows things, but that he just knows more...he knows it all. But what keeps someone from saying, "That verse is anthropomorphic because clearly God doesn't have a brain like man and thus doesn't know information like we do, so God doesn't really know everything....that is just an expression."

See, you assume your accepted attribute of divine omniscience somehow contradicts the revealed attribute of divine choice, but on what authority? How do you know how God makes choices?

Just admit that he knows differently than we do, and he chooses differently than we choose, but don't contradict scripture by suggesting He doesn't do what it reveals.

Yes, but you are assuming God knows things in the same manner we know it...linearly and within the confines of our five senses, but that He just knows everything. You can't possibly know all that He knows OR the manner in which he knows it.

 

BTW, I'm still waiting on those definitions?

While you are at it can you point me to any scholars that teach God doesn't make choices in the manner you have done here?