Which is really the most tragic story?

[Skandelon]

I am not talking about it "causally effecting" things.

That is the basis of your entire argument against my view. You are arguing that if God KNOWS something PRIOR to creating it then he MUST have determined ("causally effected") it to be as it is in such a way that it could not be otherwise.

We are not debating how God's foreknowledge causally effects things or even whether or not it does. That has nothing to do with our exchange on this thread.

Oh, well then you need to explain to me what you meant when you said, "You have God in your system knowing beforehand all that will happen if he makes everything the way he makes it and yet he goes right ahead and makes it that way anyway..."

Which certainly seems to imply that God must have predetermined all things by foreknowing what he was creating. If not, explain your intent?

Now, can you please define omniscience and predetermination. Please point out any distinctions. Also, if you don't mind, please give us an example of God's foreknowledge of something versus his predetermination of something. Thank you.

 

[Skandelon]

All that illustration can illustrate is that God has to greatly condescend to us and use our limited terminology to explain to us what he is doing.

Yet you seem to think your choice of terms is better? Interesting.

Why not stick with His terms? Keep cooing Luke, otherwise you step into unknown worlds and speculations which could contradict the 'coos' of scripture.

We can understand how God comes to make a choice- he doesn't. It is very, very easy to understand that God does not have real hands, that God does not have wings like a bird and that God does not make real choices.

Good thing you are here to correct the terms God chose to use to reveal Himself, huh?

This is not complex at all. It is VERY, VERY easy to recognize this as anthropomorphic language.

And do you think your language is better suited to describe what God has done? If not, then why are you doing so? Just say, like the scripture that God chooses but we don't really understand how that works because 'his ways are higher than our ways.' The same answer you SHOULD give when someone asks if God predetermined everything since He foreknows everything prior to creating it?

We can also understand that if God is truly all knowing and eternal then he has always known all there is to ever know about everything.

Can God exist independent of creation? Yes or no?

 

[Luke2427]

That is the basis of your entire argument against my view. You are arguing that if God KNOWS something PRIOR to creating it then he MUST have determined ("causally effected") it to be as it is in such a way that it could not be otherwise.

No it is not. I am arguing no such thing. In fact, respectfully, I don't think you could even reasonably deduce such an argument from my posts in this thread.

I am arguing that your system, unless you redefine omniscience to mean something totally other than God eternally knowing all, does not exonerate God from the origin of evil one ounce more than Calvinism.

That is it. That is what I am arguing. I am not arguing that God's foreknowledge determines everything or causally effects everything.

I am arguing that non-openness Arminian theology has the exact same problems that Calvinism has.

 

[Skandelon]

I am arguing that your system, unless you redefine omniscience to mean something totally other than God eternally knowing all, does not exonerate God from the origin of evil one ounce more than Calvinism.

Omniscience is only a problem IF you accept your premise that full foreknowledge prior to creation equals predetermination, which we do not. God foreknowing what free creatures originate themselves is different from God predetermining what creatures will do.

Your whole premise is based on the phrase "prior to creation." But when is that to an eternal being, Luke? When did creation not exist to Him? How did creation ever come to be if there is an eternal past? Hasn't the eternal past prior to creation come to an end now that creation exists? How can that be if it is eternal? See what I mean? There is no such concept as "PRIOR TO CREATION" with an enteral infinite creator, yet your entire argument hinges on this phrase. It is non-sensical to attempt to speculate about such things regarding the cause and effect nature of such high matters.

Listen, we can continue when you define "omniscience," "predetermination" and give examples of each.

 

[Luke2427]

Omniscience is only a problem IF you accept your premise that full foreknowledge prior to creation equals predetermination, which we do not. God foreknowing what free creatures originate themselves is different from God predetermining what creatures will do.

No it isn't.

If God knows that the free creatures he will make will choose not to serve him- BILLIONS of them despite his very BEST efforts to turn them around apart from irresistible force- if he makes the world the way is going to make it- then he goes right ahead and makes the world that way anyway KNOWING what these free creatures will do and KNOWING that they will burn in hell forever if he makes them- then you have the same problem the Calvinist has. The EXACT same problem.

Your whole premise is based on the phrase "prior to creation." But when is that to an eternal being, Luke? When did creation not exist to Him? How did creation ever come to be if there is an eternal past?

Before he made it.

 

[Luke2427]

Yet you seem to think your choice of terms is better? Interesting.

Why not stick with His terms? Keep cooing Luke, otherwise you step into unknown worlds and speculations which could contradict the 'coos' of scripture.

Good thing you are here to correct the terms God chose to use to reveal Himself, huh?

It is not correcting God's terms, Skandelon, as you well know, to recognize them the way God intended us to recognize them- as anthropomorphic.

It is not correcting God's terms to say that God does not ACTUALLY have wings or hands or feet. It is understanding something that better than 99% of all Christians with or without a seminary education understand.

God is using such terminology to help us to understand him- not to literally describe him.

The same is true as it pertains to terms that are inconsistent with his omniscience.

MOST Christians understand that God already knows everything and does not have to ponder on something or consider two alternatives and then make a choice. Most of us understand that God does not consider at all because he already knows.

And do you think your language is better suited to describe what God has done? If not, then why are you doing so? Just say, like the scripture that God chooses but we don't really understand how that works because 'his ways are higher than our ways.' The same answer you SHOULD give when someone asks if God predetermined everything since He foreknows everything prior to creating it?

This is getting silly, Skandelon. Recognizing anthropomorphic terms is not setting one's self up to judge God.

If it cannot be because it is inconsistent with God's nature and attributes then it must be anthropomorphic. For example, God has no body- almost ALL Christians know this (of course he made a body for himself in the form of Christ's body- but he has no eternal body). The reason we know God has no body, in spite of the fact that the Scriptures claim he has hands and feet and wings and feathers etc... is because we know a body is inconsistent with his nature. We know those terms are not literal but anthropomorphic.

So when the bible speaks of God walking the deep places- we know, almost all of us, that that does not mean he is literally WALKING, one foot in front of another...

The same is true when the Bible speaks of God considering, pondering, figuring, choosing, etc...

This is not as complex as you are trying to make it, Skan.

Can God exist independent of creation? Yes or no?

Yes.

 

[Skandelon]

No it isn't.

If God knows that the free creatures he will make will choose not to serve him- BILLIONS of them despite his very BEST efforts to turn them around apart from irresistible force- if he makes the world the way is going to make it- then he goes right ahead and makes the world that way anyway KNOWING what these free creatures will do and KNOWING that they will burn in hell forever if he makes them- then you have the same problem the Calvinist has. The EXACT same problem.

I don't know how else to explain the distinction to you, Luke. Maybe if you take the time to define Omniscience and Predetermination, and then explaining their differences according to your view and giving examples of each this will be more clear. This is my third time to make this request. I'm not trying to be difficult, but I really do believe it will help you see the distinction I'm attempting to draw here.

Before he made it.

I'm not sure how that answer addresses what I asked? Can you go back and read what I asked and respond? Thanks

 

[Luke2427]

I don't know how else to explain the distinction to you, Luke. Maybe if you take the time to define Omniscience

Brother, I have defined this on this very thread, no less than ten times.

I have said that it means "eternally knowing all," "knowing all there is to ever know about everything," numerous times, Skan. Numerous, numerous times.

I honestly think that you are the one whose definition of "omniscience" is the most sketchy in this conversation.

Perhaps you could give us yours?

 

[Luke2427]

I'm not sure how that answer addresses what I asked? Can you go back and read what I asked and respond? Thanks

You said, "Your whole premise is based on the phrase "prior to creation." But when is that to an eternal being, Luke?"

I said, "Before he made it."

I don't understand your confusion.

 

[slave 4 Christ]

Skandelon

Luke is not the only one who does not "understand" what you are talking about, unless you espouse open-theology.

Perhaps you should give your definitions of Omniscience and Pre-determinism.

And, also at what point- without violating man's LFW- does God accomplish His will?

Luke is saying God knows everything, including who will- in the Arminian perspective- reject Him. Yet He allows their existence, which ends in damnation. Hence, neither system is without difficulties.

Understand?

 

[Skandelon]

It is not correcting God's terms, Skandelon, as you well know, to recognize them the way God intended us to recognize them- as anthropomorphic.

It is not correcting God's terms to say that God does not ACTUALLY have wings or hands or feet. It is understanding something that better than 99% of all Christians with or without a seminary education understand.

Equating scripture more poetic physical descriptions of God with its clear theological teachings about what God does seems somewhat subjective, don't you think? I mean what keeps you from taking any somewhat mysterious act of God, pronouncing it to be "anthropomorphic" and contradicting it on that basis?

Scripture: God makes choices
Luke: "That is anthropomorphic: God doesn't really make choices"

Why can't you do that with every thing scripture says?

Scripture: God condemns the ungodly
Answer: That is anthropomorphic: God doesn't really condemn the ungodly

Scripture: God saves believers
Answer: That is anthropomorphic: God doesn't really save believers.

Plus, even in regard to God's physical appearances. How do you know what he looks like? He is spirit and doesn't have a body like we do, granted, but we don't know how he will manifest himself to us and what physical attributes he will have. I don't assume that God doesn't have hands, as apparently you do. I just understand He is DIFFERENT than us, and He certainly makes choices DIFFERENTLY than us, but I don't need to say he doesn't make choices and contradict scripture.

The same is true as it pertains to terms that are inconsistent with his omniscience.

What keeps you from arbitrarily concluding that the scriptures which teach of God's knowing all things as being "anthropomorphic?" Maybe he doesn't "KNOW" in the same way men "KNOW" things? Ever considered that? Why accept scripture revelation that He knows everything but not its revelation that He makes choices?

How about we both agree that God KNOWS things differently than we KNOW them and God makes choices differently than men make choices, and that God's appearance is different than man's appearance. Okay? We don't have to contradict scripture by saying the opposite of what it says just because we don't fully understand how it works.

 

[Luke2427]

Equating scripture more poetic physical descriptions of God with its clear theological teachings about what God does seems somewhat subjective, don't you think? I mean what keeps you from taking any somewhat mysterious act of God, pronouncing it to be "anthropomorphic" and contradicting it on that basis?

Scripture: God makes choices
Luke: "That is anthropomorphic: God doesn't really make choices"

Why can't you do that with every thing scripture says?

It's really very, very simple.

If the language obviously is inconsistent with his nature and attributes then it is very easily identifiable as anthropomorphic.

Scripture: God condemns the ungodly
Answer: That is anthropomorphic: God doesn't really condemn the ungodly

Not inconsistent with his nature or attributes.

Scripture: God saves believers
Answer: That is anthropomorphic: God doesn't really save believers.

Not inconsistent with his nature or attributes.

What keeps you from arbitrarily concluding that the scriptures which teach of God's knowing all things as being "anthropomorphic?" Maybe he doesn't "KNOW" in the same way men "KNOW" things? Ever considered that? Why accept scripture revelation that He knows everything but not its revelation that He makes choices?

No he doesn't know in the same way that men know. Men are not omniscient. Men do not know everything that there is to ever know about anything.

God does and always has and always will.

 

[Skandelon]

You said, "Your whole premise is based on the phrase "prior to creation." But when is that to an eternal being, Luke?"

I said, "Before he made it."

I don't understand your confusion.

Ok, now I get it. You quoted all those questions together and I didn't follow which one you were answering.

Ok... When is "BEFORE he made it" to an eternally existent, infinite being? You are thinking linearly. As if God existed for all eternity PRIOR to creation and then exists for all eternity following creation...like creation is a spot on an eternal time line or something. But how does the point on the eternal time line ever come to pass if its eternal?

What you don't seem to be grasping is that 'before he made it' is a statement based on TIME. And 'before he made it (time)' there can be no such concept that we can fully grasp in our finite understanding. "Before" is a linear word... a concept based in TIME. And before God created time there was no such thing as BEFORE or AFTER. How can you speculate as to what God did or didn't do PRIOR to creation as if it must be in accordance with the cause/effect relationship within TIME not yet created?

 

[Skandelon]

If the language obviously is inconsistent with his nature and attributes then it is very easily identifiable as anthropomorphic.

Yet, his nature and attributes are being defined by the same authority as the words you have arbitrarily deemed anthropomorphic. What keeps anyone from dismissing your interpretation of God's attributes and nature as being anthropomorphic?

You read a verse that says, "God is all knowing." And you take that to mean God knows things in the same manner men knows things, but that he just knows more...he knows it all. But what keeps someone from saying, "That verse is anthropomorphic because clearly God doesn't have a brain like man and thus doesn't know information like we do, so God doesn't really know everything....that is just an expression."

See, you assume your accepted attribute of divine omniscience somehow contradicts the revealed attribute of divine choice, but on what authority? How do you know how God makes choices?

Just admit that he knows differently than we do, and he chooses differently than we choose, but don't contradict scripture by suggesting He doesn't do what it reveals.

No he doesn't know in the same way that men know. Men are not omniscient. Men do not know everything that there is to ever know about anything.

Yes, but you are assuming God knows things in the same manner we know it...linearly and within the confines of our five senses, but that He just knows everything. You can't possibly know all that He knows OR the manner in which he knows it.

 

[Skandelon]

BTW, I'm still waiting on those definitions?

While you are at it can you point me to any scholars that teach God doesn't make choices in the manner you have done here?

 

[Luke2427]

Ok, now I get it. You quoted all those questions together and I didn't follow which one you were answering.

Ok... When is "BEFORE he made it" to an eternally existent, infinite being? You are thinking linearly. As if God existed for all eternity PRIOR to creation and then exists for all eternity following creation...like creation is a spot on an eternal time line or something. But how does the point on the eternal time line ever come to pass if its eternal?

It comes to pass at precisely the moment when God brings it to pass.

What you don't seem to be grasping is that 'before he made it' is a statement based on TIME. And 'before he made it (time)' there can be no such concept that we can fully grasp in our finite understanding. "Before" is a linear word... a concept based in TIME. And before God created time there was no such thing as BEFORE or AFTER. How can you speculate as to what God did or didn't do PRIOR to creation as if it must be in accordance with the cause/effect relationship within TIME not yet created?

There was existence before there was time, Skandelon.

It is not improper to say that something existed BEFORE time existed.

In the mind of God was his plan from eternity past.

Yes, this is beyond our ability to understand.

What we DON'T do as a result of our deficiency is REDEFINE omniscience to mean something like "God has always known a whole lot about a lot of things but not much about the future, like for example, that billions of people would go to hell if he made this world the way he made it."

 

[Luke2427]

BTW, I'm still waiting on those definitions?

While you are at it can you point me to any scholars that teach God doesn't make choices in the manner you have done here?

I'm afraid you're not reading these posts, Skan.

I gave you my definition of omniscience about a dozen times and even once after the last time that you asked for it.

 

[DaChaser1]

I've been here a lot longer than you have, even when we had a cal vs. arm forum

Good, then it shouldn't be hard for you to quote ONE.

"John"/Benjamin/van and some others maybe?
none of them seem to think much of cal theology as regarding Gods salvation methods!
I don;t like to put personal names into this, but here some are per your request!

 

[Luke2427]

Yet, his nature and attributes are being defined by the same authority as the words you have arbitrarily deemed anthropomorphic. What keeps anyone from dismissing your interpretation of God's attributes and nature as being anthropomorphic?

By this reasoning, Skandelon, there ARE no anthropomorphic terms in the Bible and God really does have wings and horns and multiple eyes and all kinds of different faces,etc...

God really does walk and uphold us with his right arm- literally.

That God does not literally change is mind or make choices that are the result of pondering between two options is as clear as the fact that God does not have dozens of eyes on the front and back of his head.

You read a verse that says, "God is all knowing." And you take that to mean God knows things in the same manner men knows things, but that he just knows more...he knows it all.

But what keeps someone from saying, "That verse is anthropomorphic because clearly God doesn't have a brain like man and thus doesn't know information like we do, so God doesn't really know everything....that is just an expression."

You wrongly assume that the mind is the brain.

See, you assume your accepted attribute of divine omniscience somehow contradicts the revealed attribute of divine choice, but on what authority? How do you know how God makes choices?

As slave4Christ has pointed out, perhaps it would be helpful if you defined omniscience as you see it.

Just admit that he knows differently than we do,

I'm perfectly content to do so but what most of us Christians are NOT content to do is say that since God does not know in the same way that we know then he probably does not know all kinds of things- particularly all the bad things that will result from his creation of the world the way he created it.

and he chooses differently than we choose, but don't contradict scripture by suggesting He doesn't do what it reveals.

As has been pointed out to you ad nauseum by now- it is not contradicting scripture to recognize anthropomorphic language.

 

[webdog]

So dachaser, you are going on the record by saying benjamin, van and seekingthetruth believe...
"Don't many non cals blame God for passing
judgement upon us for the decision of Adam?
That its not fair that God placed all of us into sin of
Adam, cursed us with spiritual death/seperation, and
that its not fair that none have the chance to undo
that?"

I've never seen anything that even hinted at the above. In all honesty I've only seen atheists and agnostics who adhere to that garbage. Would you like to take that back, or should I send them all a PM asking them their thoughts on what you branded them?