Which is really the most tragic story?

[mont974x4]

I think you might be getting tripped up on "perfection". There are a few ways men can define it, but what matters is how God defines it.

Scripturally, we have to accept that God made everyone and everything. There is no way to negate that.

So then, what of those many think are not perfectly made? I maintain they are perfectly made. They exist to show God as being God and that He may be glorified. Some may say they are not perfect because they are not physically the same as what has become to be thought of as normal. Nonetheless, they are perfectly and wonderfully made by God regardless of deformities, illness, or handicap.

Joh 9:1 As He passed by, He saw a man blind from birth.
Joh 9:2 And His disciples asked Him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he would be born blind?"
Joh 9:3 Jesus answered, "It was neither that this man sinned, nor his parents; but it was so that the works of God might be displayed in him. (NASB)


Rom 9:18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.
Rom 9:19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?"
Rom 9:20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it?
Rom 9:21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?
Rom 9:22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?
Rom 9:23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, (NASB)



Psa 139:13 For You formed my inward parts; You wove me in my mother's womb.
Psa 139:14 I will give thanks to You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made; Wonderful are Your works, And my soul knows it very well.
Psa 139:15 My frame was not hidden from You, When I was made in secret, And skillfully wrought in the depths of the earth;
Psa 139:16 Your eyes have seen my unformed substance; And in Your book were all written The days that were ordained for me, When as yet there was not one of them.
Psa 139:17 How precious also are Your thoughts to me, O God! How vast is the sum of them! (NASB)


Joh 1:3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. (NASB)

 

[Luke2427]

One doesn't follow the other. His creation is perfect, are you implying He creates less than perfection?
...and therein lies the issue.
No, because your view makes them the direct cause, but that has been hashed by you and Skan more than I care to revisit it.

It does follow. If God knew they would choose to reject him if he made them the way that he made them and placed them in the circumstances of environment and time period in which he placed them and he went right ahead and did it anyway then you have the same exact problem.

Your instruction to the father of the daughter who perished is no more comforting on the ultimate level than is the Calvinist's.

You say the Calvinist believes that God created the girl to destroy her.

Yet you believe God did the same thing. God created the girl he knew would reject him and he would destroy her- that is God creating her for no other eternal purpose than to destroy her. It is the same problem.

I freely confess this is a tremendous problem. But I recognize that the Arminian offers no better solution to this extraordinary problem than the Calvinist.

 

[Luke2427]

I think you might be getting tripped up on "perfection". There are a few ways men can define it, but what matters is how God defines it.

Scripturally, we have to accept that God made everyone and everything. There is no way to negate that.

So then, what of those many think are not perfectly made? I maintain they are perfectly made. They exist to show God as being God and that He may be glorified. Some may say they are not perfect because they are not physically the same as what has become to be thought of as normal. Nonetheless, they are perfectly and wonderfully made by God regardless of deformities, illness, or handicap.

Joh 9:1 As He passed by, He saw a man blind from birth.
Joh 9:2 And His disciples asked Him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he would be born blind?"
Joh 9:3 Jesus answered, "It was neither that this man sinned, nor his parents; but it was so that the works of God might be displayed in him. (NASB)


Rom 9:18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.
Rom 9:19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?"
Rom 9:20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it?
Rom 9:21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?
Rom 9:22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?
Rom 9:23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, (NASB)



Psa 139:13 For You formed my inward parts; You wove me in my mother's womb.
Psa 139:14 I will give thanks to You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made; Wonderful are Your works, And my soul knows it very well.
Psa 139:15 My frame was not hidden from You, When I was made in secret, And skillfully wrought in the depths of the earth;
Psa 139:16 Your eyes have seen my unformed substance; And in Your book were all written The days that were ordained for me, When as yet there was not one of them.
Psa 139:17 How precious also are Your thoughts to me, O God! How vast is the sum of them! (NASB)


Joh 1:3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. (NASB)

Right. I think it is highly problematic to remove God from the creation of human beings today.

This word "allow" is thrown about way too haphazardly for my comfort.

Either God is actively involved in the creation or Deism has merit.

I believe that the electron never makes a single revolution around the nucleus of a single atom, but by God's power and design.

If it is not God moving subatomic particles and causing them to work in such mind blowing detail, what power and wisdom does bring to pass such incredible doings?

 

[Skandelon]

It does follow. If God knew they would choose to reject him if he made them the way that he made them and placed them in the circumstances of environment and time period in which he placed them and he went right ahead and did it anyway then you have the same exact problem.

They are not even close to the same problem. Why?

We don't make the assumptions you do regarding God's omniscience as it relates to cause/effect within time and space of his creation. He is infinite and we are finite, so to apply your linear reasoning of cause and effect (i.e. if God knew something prior to creating it then he must have determined it to be) to a infinite, eternal, holy and all powerful God is unfounded and naive at best. It would be like an ant seeing a shoe as it walked by and assuming all people were created by Nike.

We affirm omniscience and human freedom while appealing to mystery regarding those things that scripture doesn't specifically reveal.

Webdog is absolutely correct. Your "TRUTHFUL" answer to the grieving parents would NEED to be kept to yourself because it would only be hurtful. Our answer, on the other hand, wouldn't need to be hidden or withheld. We honestly believe God loved and wanted for these children to repent and believe. We honestly believe God grieves with them and hates the sin that destroyed their lives. We honestly believe God didn't originate or in any way cause the sin or evil that lead to their deaths. And we honestly believe God is more than able to work even the worst situations for good, and carry them through their pain.


[Though I agree with what some have said regarding being silent and just weeping along with the parents in the initial time of grief. I was more referring to counsel latter through the healing process as they seek to find answers.]

 

[Skandelon]

I freely confess this is a tremendous problem. But I recognize that the Arminian offers no better solution to this extraordinary problem than the Calvinist.

I know I'm going to catch a lot of flak for this one, but I'm simply looking at the facts of the matter and the applied TRUTH of what we each believe. If Calvinism is true, then from these parents perspective, who is doing more harm to their child, the kidnappers who tortured and killed the believing children sending them to heaven by God's predetermined will; or God who sends the daughter to eternal torture, destined for her before being born by God's choice?

Now, I can hear all the accusations of 'misrepresentation' already, but tell me what is being misrepresented? God CHOSE to condemn all men to a totally depraved/unable nature from birth due to Adam's sin and he CHOSE to leave their daughter in that condition from birth never providing her the grace/faith she needed to be saved. There is no away to soft peddle that 'truth.'

 

[Luke2427]

They are not even close to the same problem. Why?

We don't make the assumptions you do regarding God's omniscience as it relates to cause/effect within time and space of his creation. He is infinite and we are finite, so to apply your linear reasoning of cause and effect (i.e. if God knew something prior to creating it then he must have determined it to be) to a infinite, eternal, holy and all powerful God is unfounded and naive at best. It would be like an ant seeing a shoe as it walked by and assuming all people were created by Nike.

We affirm omniscience and human freedom while appealing to mystery regarding those things that scripture doesn't specifically reveal.

Webdog is absolutely correct. Your "TRUTHFUL" answer to the grieving parents would NEED to be kept to yourself because it would only be hurtful. Our answer, on the other hand, wouldn't need to be hidden or withheld. We honestly believe God loved and wanted for these children to repent and believe. We honestly believe God grieves with them and hates the sin that destroyed their lives. We honestly believe God didn't originate or in any way cause the sin or evil that lead to their deaths. And we honestly believe God is more than able to work even the worst situations for good, and carry them through their pain.


[Though I agree with what some have said regarding being silent and just weeping along with the parents in the initial time of grief. I was more referring to counsel latter through the healing process as they seek to find answers.]

The dilema is that BOTH systems do have to appeal to mystery but that the Arminian system cannot pretend to believe that events happen for a purpose, much less a divine purpose, and that trillions of events in history fall outside the spectrum of God's control.

The question is, does God have a purpose for all that takes place? Is everything going according to plan? Are the purposes of God thwarted?

 

[Skandelon]

The dilema is that BOTH systems do have to appeal to mystery but that the Arminian system cannot pretend to believe that events happen for a purpose, much less a divine purpose, and that trillions of events in history fall outside the spectrum of God's control.

That is just factually inaccurate Luke.

Can something happen that God doesn't really want to happen (i.e. sin) and God still accomplish his purposes in, through and despite that thing happening? Or is God just not powerful enough to accomplish His purpose unless he is 'playing both sides of the chess board' so to speak?

You seem to think God can only accomplish his purposes by causally determining these types of heinous crimes, where as I believe God can accomplish his purposes despite them. I believe God can take that which is EVIL and turn it for good. I think God is powerful enough to redeem evil and make it good without having been the one who pre-determined the evil to begin with by the use of secondary means etc...

The question is, does God have a purpose for all that takes place?

I'd say God accomplishes his purpose in, through and despite all that takes place.

Is everything going according to plan?

Depends on what you mean by 'plan.' If you think it was God's plan (predetermined unchanging plan) for this pastor's daughter to reject the gospel, rebel, get drunk, die and spend eternity separated from God, no. If however you think it was God's plan to save whosoever comes and that he geniunely desired her to come to him and love her dearly by enabling her to be reconciled through the gospel, but she rebelled and suffered the consequences that God planned for all unbelievers, then yes.

 

[DaChaser1]

I believe in looking at applied theology. How does ones theology PRACTICALLY affect people in the real world. Too often we discuss these matters as if they really don't impact how we live, counsel and do ministry. Here is an example:

Two true stories:

Story 1: A house of a missionary is broken into their two children are kidnapped, taken hostage, abused in unspeakable ways and eventually killed. The children were professing believers and at their funeral their lives were celebrated despite the tragedy of their deaths.

Story 2: A pastor has an unbelieving daughter who, despite his love, discipline and biblical instruction, has rebelled against her parents, the church and God. At the age of 18 she gets drunk and dies in a car accident never having repented or come to Christ.

Both are admittedly tragic stories, but which do you think is worse and why? How does your soteriological views affect the way you counsel the parents of these children, or does it? If the Pastor of the dead daughter asks you, "Why are the missionaries children in heaven after suffering only a short time, while my daughter suffers for eternity in Hell?" How do you answer him?

How does your own "sorta Arminian" theology affect how you view these 2 situations?

We who hold to the Sovereingty of God would tend to see it as being a result in both cases of being a result of the fall, and that we are right now in World unders a curse, under world system operated by satan, world where God is now allowing for bad things to happen to ALL of us, regardless saved or not! JUST the nature of being in a sin filled/cursed World!

calvinist would see that the 2 chiildren that were saved were ones that God had saved in Christ, and the parents had the comfort of knowing that He was with them unto the end, and would now be with them forever in eternity!

the father of deceased daughter would also findcomfort in the fact tht the Lord had bless them with their daughter for 18 years, and she was lost not due to anything /anyone else, so would see that she had chosen the life that ended up for her so badly...

Important thing to see is that Both situations caused by sinful people doing sinful acts, and that we need to see that comfort and grace comes from the lord!

 

[DaChaser1]

We can argue that the death of Christ, nailed to the tree for our sins to be tragic, the innocent dying for those who should justly die.

The other two examples given in the OP? 1) Precious in the sight of God, and; 2) Just, respectively.

Thus neither are "more tragic" and the OP is begging the question.

is it just me, or is this another veiled attempt to make calvinists here look bad, as we cannot say anything good about these 2 cases without making it sound that either God is bad, forced things to happen, or else be heartless concerning the daughter"she was not one of the elect!"

 

[preacher4truth]

is it just me, or is this another veiled attempt to make calvinists here look bad, as we cannot say anything good about these 2 cases without making it sound that either God is bad, forced things to happen, or else be heartless concerning the daughter"she was not one of the elect!"

No, it's not just you.

God stands in His truth and Sovereignty, I couldn't care less what other professing Christians think about that. As to what attempt you allude to, I'd say your conclusions are warranted.

The two boil down to 'precious' and 'just' respectively. Other than this we hear the sounding for mans rights.

Balking at truthful interpretation of either scenario is proclaiming ones lack of trust in the 'fairness' of God, and nothing less.

"Which is most tragic?!" Who is really being called into question here brother? It's not 'Calvinists' I'll tell you that much.

I'll submit this again:

"Whether God has decreed all things that ever come to pass or not, all that own the being of a God, own that He knows all things beforehand. Now, it is self-evident that if He knows all things beforehand, He either doth approve of them or doth not approve of them; that is, He either is willing they should be, or He is not willing they should be. But to will that they should be is to decree them." - Jonathan Edwards

 

[quantumfaith]

u

Right. I think it is highly problematic to remove God from the creation of human beings today.

This word "allow" is thrown about way too haphazardly for my comfort.

Either God is actively involved in the creation or Deism has merit.

I believe that the electron never makes a single revolution around the nucleus of a single atom, but by God's power and design.

If it is not God moving subatomic particles and causing them to work in such mind blowing detail, what power and wisdom does bring to pass such incredible doings?

Luke, does this not "boil down" to the following proposition (question)?

Is it possible for God to be completely omniscient and sovereign and yet not be responsible for all? Questions of theodicy have "prevented" countless individuals of a skeptical nature from seeking God, it is the strongest tool in the arsenal of the avowed skeptic and atheist.

 

[Amy.G]

Ok. I do...not...believe..I'm....going to say this....but... I have to agree with Luke on this one.
:laugh:


No matter which side you're on, there are people going to hell everyday and God knows all about it. He could have stopped it, but somehow it's all part of the plan. We are not privy to that information. God does not owe us an explanation.

 

[preacher4truth]

God does not owe us an explanation.

:thumbsup:

Yet somehow some within their theological framework said think it unfair, and, that since it doesn't fit into their logic, it cannot be true. Man must have a say in it, and clamoring for 'rights' is in the forefront. I totally reject any theology that places man in this position, and this is exactly these types of theologies do, place man there, as if man is to be answered to.

 

[DaChaser1]

:thumbsup:

Yet somehow some within their theological framework said think it unfair, and, that since it doesn't fit into their logic, it cannot be true. Man must have a say in it, and clamoring for 'rights' is in the forefront. I totally reject any theology that places man in this position, and this is exactly these types of theologies do, place man there, as if man is to be answered to.

Don't many non cals blame God for passing judgement upon us for the decision of Adam?

That its not fair that God placed all of us into sin of Adam, cursed us with spiritual death/seperation, and that its not fair that none have the chance to undo that?

 

[webdog]

Don't many non cals blame God for passing judgement upon us for the decision of Adam?

That its not fair that God placed all of us into sin of Adam, cursed us with spiritual death/seperation, and that its not fair that none have the chance to undo that?

Name one. I'm tired of your baseless accusations. Its put up or shut up time.

 

[preacher4truth]

Don't many non cals blame God for passing judgement upon us for the decision of Adam?

That its not fair that God placed all of us into sin of Adam, cursed us with spiritual death/seperation, and that its not fair that none have the chance to undo that?

Yes, they do.

I don't see them complaining so about Christ.

I do see them complaining about they made the choice, they have rights you know.

 

[DaChaser1]

Yes, they do.

I don't see them complaining so about Christ.

I do see them complaining about they made the choice, they have rights you know.

many Christians seem to have the belief that God the father, of the OT, is "meany/not fair"

The Holy Spirit just to talk about, not have to empowering us

jesus the One in Godhead is good/kind/sweet!

 

[webdog]

many Christians seem to have the belief that God the father, of the OT, is "meany/not fair"

The Holy Spirit just to talk about, not have to empowering us

jesus the One in Godhead is good/kind/sweet!

Again name one, or your little back and forth about what "they" do may as well be speaking of winged elves.

Won't expect you to answer this challenge..."they" are busy right now riding their unicorns.

 

[Iconoclast]

Luke, does this not "boil down" to the following proposition (question)?

Is it possible for God to be completely omniscient and sovereign and yet not be responsible for all? Questions of theodicy have "prevented" countless individuals of a skeptical nature from seeking God, it is the strongest tool in the arsenal of the avowed skeptic and atheist.

QF

Sin prevents men from seeking God. Vain human philosophy has no merit before God. theodicy is the least of an agnostic.or atheists problems

 

[Iconoclast]

I believe in looking at applied theology. How does ones theology PRACTICALLY affect people in the real world. Too often we discuss these matters as if they really don't impact how we live, counsel and do ministry. Here is an example:

Two true stories:

Story 1: A house of a missionary is broken into their two children are kidnapped, taken hostage, abused in unspeakable ways and eventually killed. The children were professing believers and at their funeral their lives were celebrated despite the tragedy of their deaths.

Story 2: A pastor has an unbelieving daughter who, despite his love, discipline and biblical instruction, has rebelled against her parents, the church and God. At the age of 18 she gets drunk and dies in a car accident never having repented or come to Christ.

Both are admittedly tragic stories, but which do you think is worse and why? How does your soteriological views affect the way you counsel the parents of these children, or does it? If the Pastor of the dead daughter asks you, "Why are the missionaries children in heaven after suffering only a short time, while my daughter suffers for eternity in Hell?" How do you answer him?

Both are admittedly tragic stories, but which do you think is worse and why?

Sin and death are both unnatural and tragic. But if someone goes to heaven and someone else goes to hell......the one going to hell is obviously worse.

How does your soteriological views affect the way you counsel the parents of these children, or does it?

Both the missionary and the pastor should be well aware that we live in a sin cursed earth since Adams fall. Both should know and understand God is in complete control of whatsoever comes to pass...as has been posted.

We know the God of all the earth will do right. Even the wicked acts of wicked men are under His control. nothing can happen to us that God does not allow to happen. Sometimes God over rules the evil designs of the wicked. sometimes he does not over rule them.

Death and loss have an emotional price that is hard on all involved.

If the Pastor of the dead daughter asks you, "Why are the missionaries children in heaven after suffering only a short time, while my daughter suffers for eternity in Hell?" How do you answer him

We do not know for sure who is in heaven and who is not...his dead daughter had heard the gospel. If she did not believe in Jesus by a God given faith...she would have died in her sins....justly...in hell she will know why she is there, and why it is right she be there. If God saved her she will be one saved as by fire.

No one individuals emotional situation and loss of a family member in any way changes what God has ordained to come to pass.

If my or your grandfather did not repent and believe the gospel and are in hell , does that somehow make the gospel not be the gospel ???

Do the rules of life vs.sin and death change because it is a relative of ours ?

If this story is true...why would any real pastor question the destiny of a believer as opposed to an unbeliever?

Does anyone here not understand what is at stake. People are condemned and under the judgement of GOD Already...if God does not grant repentance unto life....they perish. Sin and death are tragic.Sin and death are a reality in this fallen world under a curse.