Which is really the most tragic story?

[quantumfaith]

QF

Sin prevents men from seeking God. Vain human philosophy has no merit before God. theodicy is the least of an agnostic.or atheists problems

I am sorry you feel that way, but that does not change the simple fact that YOUR theology and MY theology are philosophy. I agree vain philosophies have not merit. I disagree with you that man cannot seek God, I think it is a vital part of our nature, our seeking though is in vain apart from God's grace. Perhaps it is not a gift of yours to share your faith and seek to be an instrument of persuasion where skeptics or atheists are concerned.

 

[Skandelon]

is it just me, or is this another veiled attempt to make calvinists here look bad, as we cannot say anything good about these 2 cases without making it sound that either God is bad, forced things to happen, or else be heartless concerning the daughter"she was not one of the elect!"

It's not my fault that 'you can't say anything good,' or that your view is 'making God look bad,' or that you 'appear heartless.' Maybe that should tell you something about your doctrine and all its practical implications. raying:

 

[seekingthetruth]

I honestly thinnk the Calvinist is best able to console these poor folks amidst these terrible tragedies.

Six months ago I buried a 42 year old woman who was the greatly beloved daughter of one of my deacons and his wife and she was mother to a little Down's Syndrome girl of eight years old. She was also mother to two grown children and a new born grandbaby.

She was a very sweet and precious lady and well loved in our whole little community.

I was at the hospital when the cancer finaly took her. Her large family and numerous friends were all there. THE MOST COMMON PHRASE SPOKEN time and again through tears of mourning and tight embraces bore the only truth that sustained them. It was this: "GOD HAS A PURPOSE."

Respectfully, what can the Arminian say? This serves no higher purpose. God never intended for this to happen. God is going to somehow work this out for your good, but he had no purpose in this event coming to pass. If it were up to your God this would never have happened- he could have stopped it, especially since he never intended it to happen and it never did serve a divine purpose- but he simply chose not to.

That's not enough. The Christian must know that God has a purpose for every single thing that happens in this world. He must know that everything is going according to plan- God's glorious, holy plan.

How is this a Calvinist/Arminian issue? And what about us regular Christians that are neither Calvinist nor Arminian?

My answer is simply that man believes 99% of what he believes based on life here on Earth. We cannot concieve of anything past what we see and hear right here. Yes, we talk about heaven and hell, but we put all of the importance of our being in our Earthly existence.

I think that my life here on Earth means nothing in the big scheme of things. Birth, and death are not denied any of us. It is the afterlife that matters. We are too concerned with what and who we are right now to even really consider what and who we will be when we die.

Living is not nearly as important as dieing is.

Death comes to us all. Yet somehow, we see it as the most tragic thing in the world.

I welcome death. It will be a relief from this world, and finally I will meet Jesus.

So, to me, the most tragic of the stories is who was ready to meet Jesus, and who wasnt.

Dieing, and leaving this Earth is not tragic, Going to Hell is tragic.

Death is much more important than life.

So, how in the world can this be a Calvinist/Arminian/Regular Christian issue? Are non-Cals always stupid and wrong, even when it comes to comforting our loved ones when someone dies?

give me a break

John

 

[Skandelon]

Ok. I do...not...believe..I'm....going to say this....but... I have to agree with Luke on this one.
:laugh:

No matter which side you're on, there are people going to hell everyday and God knows all about it. He could have stopped it, but somehow it's all part of the plan.

So, because God doesn't EFFECTUALLY force all people to believe and not go to hell then he is somehow to blame? In our system God genuinely desires all to come to repentance and provides all that is needed for lost men to do that. Contrast that with a system where God not only doesn't 'stop it' as you alluded to, but actually predetermined it that way so that it could not have been otherwise.

We are not privy to that information. God does not owe us an explanation.

I'm not sure why you would be siding with Luke if you believe that God doesn't owe an explanation, because Calvinism is the system that attempts to offer an explanation by suggesting that God casually determined these tragedies for his glory. In contrast, our side says we don't know all the reasons God doesn't prevent aspects of evil, but we know God is good, holy and doesn't even tempt men to evil. Are you sure you want to be on that side of the fence?

 

[Iconoclast]

I am sorry you feel that way, but that does not change the simple fact that YOUR theology and MY theology are philosophy. I agree vain philosophies have not merit. I disagree with you that man cannot seek God, I think it is a vital part of our nature, our seeking though is in vain apart from God's grace. Perhaps it is not a gift of yours to share your faith and seek to be an instrument of persuasion where skeptics or atheists are concerned.

I speak with agnostics and atheists all the time.I do not share. I seek to establish the word of God,and His law's claim upon them.
God revealed theology...is not carnal philosophy. One originates with man..the other is revealed by God.

I disagree with you that man cannot seek God, I

men seek false gods and religion......not the true God.

 

[Iconoclast]

So, because God doesn't EFFECTUALLY force all people to believe and not go to hell then he is somehow to blame? In our system God genuinely desires all to come to repentance and provides all that is needed for lost men to do that. Contrast that with a system where God not only doesn't 'stop it' as you alluded to, but actually predetermined it that way so that it could not have been otherwise.


I'm not sure why you would be siding with Luke if you believe that God doesn't owe an explanation, because Calvinism is the system that attempts to offer an explanation by suggesting that God casually determined these tragedies for his glory. In contrast, our side says we don't know all the reasons God doesn't prevent aspects of evil, but we know God is good, holy and doesn't even tempt men to evil. Are you sure you want to be on that side of the fence?

So, because God doesn't EFFECTUALLY force all people to believe and not go to hell then he is somehow to blame?

A false concept once again.....can you show where any calvinist says God effectually forces anyone?
or that God casually determines tragedies?

 

[seekingthetruth]

A question for everyone, but especially you Calvinists.

Can you honestly tell from the stories which people were saved and which weren't?

You assume because of what you see and hear in our physical world that you know who is going to heaven, and who is going to hell.

I would submit to you that the opposite might actaully be the truth.

Even Calvnists, with all of their knowledge and education, cannot look into someone's heart, and know who is saved, and who isnt.

Calvinists are going to be real suprised when they get to heaven, and see who is there, and who isnt.

A hard-core bible thumping Calvinist preacher can actually be lost, while a person struggling with substance abuse might be the first in line at heaven's gate.

I don't know, and you don't know.

The thing that gets me is that we judge sin by Earthly standards. To God, who is worse, Charles Manson, or a televangelist that takes good Christians money so he can live in a 2 million dollar mansion?

Charles Manson, or a good pastor that is saved but is forgiven because he trusts Christ? The sins of the good pastor are just as worthy of Hell as Charles Manson's are, but we judge Charles Manson by Earthly standards, whereas i dont believe God does. What is shocking to us, is just human behavior to God.

So, really, noone knows which of the people in the two stories, if any went to heaven.

John

 

[seekingthetruth]

A false concept once again.....can you show where any calvinist says God effectually forces anyone?
or that God casually determines tragedies?

Doesnt "limited atonement" mean that Jesus only died for some, and "forces' others to hell by not even giving an oppurtunity to repent?

Doesn't "irresistible Grace" mean that if God wants to save you that you cant avoid it, and He "forces" you to repent?

Isnt that Grace being forced on some, and denied to others.

Isnt it "force" either way. God forces you to heaven, or He forces you into hell, at His own pleasure and choosing?

Isnt this what Calvinism is about?

John

 

[Skandelon]

A false concept once again.....can you show where any calvinist says God effectually forces anyone?
or that God casually determines tragedies?

Semantics...you all typically use more 'politically correct' terms but its all the same. 'Effectual' is another word for 'Irresistible." And I've heard many Calvinists argue the the word "draw" is best interpreted as "force" or "dragging."

I know you all believe men's nature are irresistibly changed thus changing their desires and making them WANT to come, and not that they are forced against their wills. But that seems to be a difference without a distinction considering that the change is 'forced' or 'irresistible' regardless.

 

[Amy.G]

So, because God doesn't EFFECTUALLY force all people to believe and not go to hell then he is somehow to blame? In our system God genuinely desires all to come to repentance and provides all that is needed for lost men to do that. Contrast that with a system where God not only doesn't 'stop it' as you alluded to, but actually predetermined it that way so that it could not have been otherwise.

I never said God was to blame for anything.
What I said is that regardless if you're a Calvinist or Arminian, people do go to hell. In your system, God creates humans knowing full well that they will reject Him and consequently spend eternity in hell, yet He creates them anyway. Both systems have to accept the fact that people go to hell and God is in charge.

I'm not sure why you would be siding with Luke if you believe that God doesn't owe an explanation,

I wasn't siding with Luke about that. That was my own statement. And I stick with it. No one has all the answers. If it were crystal clear we wouldn't be debating it for all these centuries. And NO, God doesn't owe us anything.

because Calvinism is the system that attempts to offer an explanation by suggesting that God casually determined these tragedies for his glory. In contrast, our side says we don't know all the reasons God doesn't prevent aspects of evil, but we know God is good, holy and doesn't even tempt men to evil.

Both systems attempt to offer explanations and both succeed on some points and both fail on other points. Neither system has all the answers simply because God has chosen not to reveal everything to us. Of course God doesn't tempt men to do evil. We ALL agree on that.

Are you sure you want to be on that side of the fence?

I'm on the side of the fence where the truth is.

 

[seekingthetruth]

I never said God was to blame for anything.
What I said is that regardless if you're a Calvinist or Arminian, people do go to hell. In your system, God creates humans knowing full well that they will reject Him and consequently spend eternity in hell, yet He creates them anyway. Both systems have to accept the fact that people go to hell and God is in charge.



I wasn't siding with Luke about that. That was my own statement. And I stick with it. No one has all the answers. If it were crystal clear we wouldn't be debating it for all these centuries.




Both systems attempt to offer explanations and both succeed on some points and both fail on other points. Neither system has all the answers simply because God has chosen not to reveal everything to us. Of course God doesn't tempt men to do evil. We ALL agree on that.



I'm on the side of the fence where the truth is.

If you ever run for office in my district, i will vote for you. Agreeing with everyone is the most politically correct stance one can take.

John

 

[Amy.G]

If you ever run for office in my district, i will vote for you. Agreeing with everyone is the most politically correct stance one can take.

John

I've been called a lot of things, but politically correct is NOT one of them. :laugh:

 

[Skandelon]

In your system, God creates humans knowing full well that they will reject Him and consequently spend eternity in hell, yet He creates them anyway. Both systems have to accept the fact that people go to hell and God is in charge.

One, we don't know the cause/effect relationship of God creating, God foreknowing, man's choices and the consequences. Those are all speculations.

Two, in one of the systems God is doing everything short of "irresistible force" to call men to repentance and faith so as to help them avoid hell and find reconciliation. In the other system God chose to condemn people to hell from birth without hope of avoiding hell. I'm not sure how you can pretend the perceived problem is even similar between those two system, but some people see what they want. :tear:

I'm on the side of the fence where the truth is.

Oh good, we're on the same side, let's have lunch sometime.

 

[Iconoclast]

John

Hello ST,
Good questions...lets look at it!

Doesnt "limited atonement" mean that Jesus only died for some, and "forces' others to hell by not even giving an oppurtunity to repent?

No...it means that all mankind was considered as fallen in Adam and condemned. God in love and Mercy elects to save a multitude of sinners' He comes and dies for that multitude of sinners in what is understood as the Covenant of Redemption. [the Father gives the elect sinners to the Son]
Jesus comes to die for them, actually saving them....not potentially, but actually dies for them and removes their sins.
Those others are responsible to repent and believe.They do not want to.

Doesn't "irresistible Grace" mean that if God wants to save you that you cant avoid it, and He "forces" you to repent?

No.....it means that men naturally avoid the grace of God....but God giving a new heart to His elect...he makes them willing psalm 110:3 allowing them to desire Jesus, and not ultimately resist His grace.

Isnt that Grace being forced on some, and denied to others.

Isnt it "force" either way. God forces you to heaven, or He forces you into hell, at His own pleasure and choosing?

Isnt this what Calvinism is about?

no...it is not force...God draws His elect by love....

3The LORD hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee

The unsaved are forced or cast into hell.

 

[preacher4truth]

lol...look at the flak attempted to be fired at Amy for standing for the truth here. :wavey:

skandalon, I'm afraid you're simply not on the side of the fence you think you are on. :thumbs:

 

[Amy.G]

Sure got quiet in here.

 

[Iconoclast]

One, we don't know the cause/effect relationship of God creating, God foreknowing, man's choices and the consequences. Those are all speculations.

No they are revealed truth not speculation .God does all for His good pleasure. Many of us accept God's word on this....and believe it by His grace.

 

[preacher4truth]

No they are revealed truth not speculation .God does all for His good pleasure. Many of us accept God's word on this....and believe it by His grace.

Revealed truth, yes. Amen. :thumbs:

 

[Amy.G]

No they are revealed truth not speculation .God does all for His good pleasure. Many of us accept God's word on this....and believe it by His grace.

I accept that too. God does everything according to His will and pleasure, but that statement alone doesn't tell us the why.

For instance, we know that Christ was crucified for God's good pleasure. For it pleased God to bruise Him. But the reason it pleased God to bruise Him was because God desired to save sinners.

Being curious humans, we want to know why. That doesn't mean that God will tell us, but apparently He created us with the desire to seek knowledge.

 

[Iconoclast]

I accept that too. God does everything according to His will and pleasure, but that statement alone doesn't tell us the why.

For instance, we know that Christ was crucified for God's good pleasure. For it pleased God to bruise Him. But the reason it pleased God to bruise Him was because God desired to save sinners.

Being curious humans, we want to know why. That doesn't mean that God will tell us, but apparently He created us with the desire to seek knowledge.

One passage that reveals somewhat of the motive is this;
6For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

7The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:

8But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.

9Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;
10And repayeth them that hate him to their face, to destroy them: he will not be slack to him that hateth him, he will repay him to his face.



It is a Holy Covenant Love...based on the Covenant of Redemption made between the three Divine persons