Which is worse?

[Skandelon]

As usual a rebuttal unencumbered by any Scriptural premise.

I'd quote the verses again and again if I thought it would help you.

We know by the Scriptures that men by nature hate God.

And we know that God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself and makes the appeal for ALL God haters to be reconciled to him.

And now here, in addition to your confession that those who choose to receive Christ do so because they are better people than those who do not,

And you confess that those who choose to receive Christ are also better than those who do not. Isn't a regenerate person better than a non-regenerate one Aaron? Come on. Be objective for once. You believe God makes men 'better' (enabled to respond) and I believe God makes them 'better' (enabled to respond). The ONLY difference is that I believe the response is contra-causally free and you do not. You believe God only makes elect people better and does so in such a way that guarantees an irresistible acceptance of the appeal to be reconciled.

You know, the peripheral matter that you keep running from?

 

[Herald]

In the 'real' world you'd be sure to call the sane man who committed premeditated murder worse than the clinically insane man who was born with a chemical imbalance and unable to control himself. A jury would say 'guilty' about one of the them and 'not guilty by reason of insanity' about the other. So, while they both may be wet (murders) one is certainly WORSE than the other.

Which judge's opinion are you more concerned about; God or man? If hell is the wages of sin then the severity of a particular sin is of small account. If you're seeking to rank sin in the temporal world I suppose you could draw a distinction between lying and capital murder. But since both can consign a person to hell they are both serious.

 

[Aaron]

And you confess that those who choose to receive Christ are also better than those who do not.

That is false.

Isn't a regenerate person better than a non-regenerate one Aaron?

Not at all, Chuck. Better off, maybe. But better? No.

Come on. Be objective for once.

Be Scriptural for once.

You believe God makes men 'better' (enabled to respond) and I believe God makes them 'better' (enabled to respond).

Here again you manifest your utter misapprehension of Christ's work, and the nature of one's union with Christ, and by reason thereof your utter misapprehension of what I believe, and of Calvinism in general.

It isn't that The ONLY difference is that I believe the response is contra-causally free and you do not.

Not at all. The differences are many, varied and absolute.

I'm not going to rehash old stuff. I was just pointing out your admissions of the logical end of your ideas. Men are saved because they do and think better than those who do not. IOW, Christ saves no one.

And now, by attempting to elevate the natural man to partaker of the divine nature, you have just blamed God for the advent of evil in the world.

 

[Skandelon]

That is false.

That doesn't keep you from saying it about my view, and since we agree as to God initial gracious work to make those who believe 'better' then whatever applies to my view would by necessity apply to yours. Just because I don't believe the gracious work of God irresistibly draws a positive response doesn't change this FACT.

Not at all, Chuck. Better off, maybe. But better? No.

So. a person willing to believe and repent is not 'better' than a person unwilling to believe and repent? Hmmmm. So, then why are you accusing me of believing those who are willingly to believe and repent are 'better?'

Be Scriptural for once.

Cute. I quote twice as much scripture as you do on this forum.

Here again you manifest your utter misapprehension of Christ's work, and the nature of one's union with Christ, and by reason thereof your utter misapprehension of what I believe, and of Calvinism in general.

Do you think using bigger words makes that rubbish easier to swallow. :smilewinkgrin:

Do you or do you not believe God makes men 'enabled'? Of course you do, that is why you all quote John 6:44 all the time. Is being enabled better than not being enabled? Of course it is. You can dance around it all you want but any objective observer knows its true. The difference is the 'irresistibility', a matter you won't address.

I'm not going to rehash old stuff.

You've never 'hashed' it to begin with Aaron. You have run from this issue since day one continually dismissing it as a 'peripheral matter.'

You've become blind to your own lack of objectivity on this matter.

 

[Skandelon]

Which judge's opinion are you more concerned about; God or man?

God's of course, but that argument is a false dichotomy because it assumes it MUST be either or, when in reality what we are debating is man's judgement about what God has revealed.

If hell is the wages of sin then the severity of a particular sin is of small account.

Is of importance to Christ who gives an analogy of that very principle, so I guess you should take it up with him. It is also of importance when you have Calvinists claiming that Arminians have too high of a view of man, when in reality our view of unbelievers is LOWER than the Calvinistic view when this biblical principle is applied.

 

[Herald]

God's of course, but that argument is a false dichotomy because it assumes it MUST be either or, when in reality what we are debating is man's judgement about what God has revealed.

Is of importance to Christ who gives an analogy of that very principle, so I guess you should take it up with him. It is also of importance when you have Calvinists claiming that Arminians have too high of a view of man, when in reality our view of unbelievers is LOWER than the Calvinistic view when this biblical principle is applied.

It depends on what type of judgement you're referring to. As I said prior, if you're emphasizing temporal judgement then you can categorize sin as lesser or greater. If, however, you're comparing sins from an eternal perspective their place on the pecking order is of little consequence.

As far as this assertion that Arminians have too high of a view of man, that's a part of a theological construct. Arminianism and semi-Pelagianism are close cousins. Since they reject the Calvinist view of total depravity some Calvinists would make the higher view of man accusation. I don't because I believe their is a happy inconsistency among some Arminians and semi-Pelagians. Not everyone who holds to Arminianism and semi-Pelagianism follows their logical course. I know a devout semi-Pelagian who believes in the classical Reformed view of total depravity. Logically he can't hold to semi-Pelagianism and believe in the Reformed view of total depravity. It makes no sense. For that reason I don't get too hung up on terms.

 

[Skandelon]

So, you are saying that every sin if of equal consequence but that consistent Arminians do have a high view of man??? How does that relate to the argument I've laid out above?

 

[J.D.]

I've heard many modern Baptists say that they believe in Total Depravity but also believe that every person is born with the ability to believe. But this is a contradiction, for Total Depravity is defined as the inborn inability to believe (spiritual death).

Total Depravity does NOT mean that a person is totally wicked, but it does mean that a person is spiritually dead, and must be spiritually resurrected to become God's child.

And keep the proper balance, it's important to remember that even in the spiritually dead condition, every person retains the Image of God, however so marred, but retained nonetheless. It is this retained Image that reminds the unregenerate that there is some kind of spirit world, something transcendent, something "out there"; yet because they do not like to retain God in their knowledge, they suppress the Image of God with their thoughts, and hatch out all sorts of foolish ideas about God, or gods, and in their anger against the truth, spend their lives trying to completely erase every vestige of that Image. They hate God because their basic knowledge of Him is a thorn, a nagging hindrance to their pursuit of evil.

This hatred of God can manifest itself either as an angry, virulent denial of Him, or as an indifferent coldness toward the things of God.

But in any case, no man can love God, except by the Holy Spirit dwelling in him.

 

[Skandelon]

I've heard many modern Baptists say that they believe in Total Depravity but also believe that every person is born with the ability to believe. But this is a contradiction, for Total Depravity is defined as the inborn inability to believe (spiritual death).

I agree, which is why I've rejected the reformed view of TD (and been accused of being Peligian for it.) But what MOST non-Cals mean when they say they affirm TD is that they affirm the doctrine of Original Sin.

Or some say they affirm TD even to the point of total inability but claim God send prevenient grace to all men undoing what TD did.

I personally believe the Gospel is God's work of this so called prevenient grace. It is the POWER of God unto salvation making the appeal to all of God's enemies: Be reconciled to God. It never returns void. It always accomplishes its intended purpose...and that purpose is NOT to effectually save a few, it is to make an appeal to all who hear it. But how can they respond to that which they have not heard?

The means of God's enabling grace is the Holy Spirit wrought gospel! IT is more powerful than the fallen nature of man.

 

[Herald]

So, you are saying that every sin if of equal consequence but that consistent Arminians do have a high view of man??? How does that relate to the argument I've laid out above?

Every unforgiven sin leads to one sum total: eternal separation from God.

The Arminian that denies total depravity believes that man is not completely fallen. Compared to the classical Reformed theology that is a higher view of man.

All I am saying that not every Arminian is consistent with their own theological construct. Some will deny they hold to a high view of man. Their system demands that they do but they deny it. That's inconsistent with their theological system.

 

[J.D.]

I agree, which is why I've rejected the reformed view of TD (and been accused of being Peligian for it.) But what MOST non-Cals mean when they say they affirm TD is that they affirm the doctrine of Original Sin.

Or some say they affirm TD even to the point of total inability but claim God send prevenient grace to all men undoing what TD did.

I personally believe the Gospel is God's work of this so called prevenient grace. It is the POWER of God unto salvation making the appeal to all of God's enemies: Be reconciled to God. It never returns void. It always accomplishes its intended purpose...and that purpose is NOT to effectually save a few, it is to make an appeal to all who hear it. But how can they respond to that which they have not heard?

The means of God's enabling grace is the Holy Spirit wrought gospel! IT is more powerful than the fallen nature of man.

I understand your position, that the power of God resides in the preached word, the message as it were. But the trump card to that theory is given to us in Lydia's account in Acts 13 - how God "opened her heart" to the preaching. There is a pattern there - an opened heart first, a received message second.

 

[Skandelon]

I understand your position, that the power of God resides in the preached word, the message as it were. But the trump card to that theory is given to us in Lydia's account in Acts 13 - how God "opened her heart" to the preaching. There is a pattern there - an opened heart first, a received message second.

Well if Lydia is meant to be the representative of the average "totally depraved" individual, which Calvinists describe as being 'enemies, God-haters, totally unable, etc' then can you explain why she is described as someone who 'worshipped God' prior to this experience?

 

[Skandelon]

Every unforgiven sin leads to one sum total: eternal separation from God.

We both agree on this point. That is NOT the point we are debating. We are speaking of the depraved nature of man as defined by the two respective views (Calvinism and Arminianism). We both believe even one sin is hell worthy, but we have different view on the nature of man from birth. Calvinists think there view of man is lower because man are born 'totally depraved' and thus UNABLE to willing respond, whereas non-Calvinists believe that God graciously enables all men through the powerful Holy Spirit wrought gospel appeal. My argument is that the non-Calvinistic view of man is lower, not higher, than the Calvinistic view because in our view man has no excuse for his unbelief, while in the Calvinistic system he has the perfect excuse: "I was born like this and God didn't grant me faith." In our view the man rebels in the face of God's love and gracious provision. In the Cal view they rebel against a God that didn't really love or choose them to begin with, they are just doing what they were created to do...rebel.

The Arminian that denies total depravity believes that man is not completely fallen.

That depends on how one defines 'fallen.'

 

[revmwc]

I've heard many modern Baptists say that they believe in Total Depravity but also believe that every person is born with the ability to believe. But this is a contradiction, for Total Depravity is defined as the inborn inability to believe (spiritual death).

Total Depravity does NOT mean that a person is totally wicked, but it does mean that a person is spiritually dead, and must be spiritually resurrected to become God's child.

And keep the proper balance, it's important to remember that even in the spiritually dead condition, every person retains the Image of God, however so marred, but retained nonetheless. It is this retained Image that reminds the unregenerate that there is some kind of spirit world, something transcendent, something "out there"; yet because they do not like to retain God in their knowledge, they suppress the Image of God with their thoughts, and hatch out all sorts of foolish ideas about God, or gods, and in their anger against the truth, spend their lives trying to completely erase every vestige of that Image. They hate God because their basic knowledge of Him is a thorn, a nagging hindrance to their pursuit of evil.

This hatred of God can manifest itself either as an angry, virulent denial of Him, or as an indifferent coldness toward the things of God.

But in any case, no man can love God, except by the Holy Spirit dwelling in him.

Total Depravity man born as a natural sinful being. Totally and entirely alienated from God and void of Spitiual understanding, which is Spiritual separtation from God or Spiritual Death he is a depraved being. Depraved by definition "morally bad or debased; corrupt; perverted" that describes every human ever born except for Christ. Christ came and atoned for the Sins of all mankind scripture is clear on that so His atonement is unlimited, not limited to just the elect but until all.

When it comes right down to it there is only one reason anyone is sentenced to the Lake Of Fire and suffers the second death.

Rev. 20:
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Verse 15 tells us whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
How does one not have their name written in the book of life? By not believing on the Lord Jesus Christ as their savior.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Salvation is by Believing on Jesus Christ condemnation comes from not beleiving on the Lord Jesus Christ that what Christ said.
Total Depravity is seen here in that all are condenmed who have not believed, That is Total Depravity. Depraved again "morally bad or debased; corrupt; perverted" they are condenmed.

John 12:46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.
47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

Verse 48 He that rejeceth Me and receiveth not my words shall be judged in the last days. Total depraved in that they have rejected so great a salvation.

The issue of ones eternal home whether with God forever or seperated from Him forever comes down to rejection of Christ. The one who rejects Christ is condemened already. God didn't choose who would accept or reject God elected us based on what HE knew beforehand about the choice one would make to reject or receive Jesus Christ. Salvation is the free gift of God given to all who will accept Him, and God knows exactly who will and who will not accept Him. Based on that knowledge peter say we are Elect, 1 Peter 1: 2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Paul in Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

That God foreknew and therfore Predestinated us to be conformed to the image of His Son, to make us Christlike, to maker us righteous, justified, sanctified, regenerated to be SAVED.

It is all based on HIS Foreknowledge of us.

 

[revmwc]

We are speaking of the depraved nature of man as defined by the two respective views (Calvinism and Arminianism).
That depends on how one defines 'fallen.'

Why just those two???? That is the whole problem there are not just the Calvanistic view and the Arminian view, their are those of us who reject parts of both teaching. I believe man is Totally Depraved from birth, "morally bad or debased; corrupt; perverted" Spiritually dead, I reject the Arminian doctrine of lose of Salvation and the believe we are preserved in Christ once we have accepted Him as our savior. I don't believe grace is irresistable I believe that man can reject the drawing of the Holy Spirit through out His life and When He dies is found guilty of Blaspheming the Holy Spirit rejecting His call and Rejecting the Gift of Salvation that Christ gives to all who believe. I Believe HIS ATONEMENT was for everyone that He paid the price for everyones sin, that it must be accepted in order to be effective in ones life. I believe Election is based on God's Foreknowing us before the foundation of the world and based on that foreknowledge HE presdestinated us to be conformed to the image of His Son. That we have free choice to chose for Christ or reject Christ, but God knows the choice we will make and that is why He predestinated us.
Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

So there are other views beside the Calvanism and Arminianism which both views are flawed and the doctrines of Paul and the N.T. writers should be viewed without the prejudice of beliefs in those teachings.

 

[Skandelon]

Why just those two???? That is the whole problem there are not just the Calvanistic view and the Arminian view, their are those of us who reject parts of both teaching.

I agree, I was just speaking in generalities.

Just as there a many different 'types' of Calvinists there are many different types of Arminians...many of which hate the labels all together.

 

[revmwc]

I agree, I was just speaking in generalities.

Just as there a many different 'types' of Calvinists there are many different types of Arminians...many of which hate the labels all together.

Too many on here actas if there are justthe two. Labels drive the word now a days.

 

[J.D.]

Well if Lydia is meant to be the representative of the average "totally depraved" individual, which Calvinists describe as being 'enemies, God-haters, totally unable, etc' then can you explain why she is described as someone who 'worshipped God' prior to this experience?

I thought that maybe the act of opening, being an act of God, might indicate how someone's heart might turn to the Lord, salvation being all of grace. But in your world, apparently, some people are just born good, or at least, not as bad as others, and they improve upon that born-with goodness when they receive the Gospel message, salvation being partly of grace and partly of human goodness.

 

[J.D.]

Total Depravity man born as a natural sinful being. Totally and entirely alienated from God and void of Spitiual understanding, which is Spiritual separtation from God or Spiritual Death he is a depraved being. Depraved by definition "morally bad or debased; corrupt; perverted" that describes every human ever born except for Christ. Christ came and atoned for the Sins of all mankind scripture is clear on that so His atonement is unlimited, not limited to just the elect but until all.

When it comes right down to it there is only one reason anyone is sentenced to the Lake Of Fire and suffers the second death.

Rev. 20:
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Verse 15 tells us whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
How does one not have their name written in the book of life? By not believing on the Lord Jesus Christ as their savior.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Salvation is by Believing on Jesus Christ condemnation comes from not beleiving on the Lord Jesus Christ that what Christ said.
Total Depravity is seen here in that all are condenmed who have not believed, That is Total Depravity. Depraved again "morally bad or debased; corrupt; perverted" they are condenmed.

John 12:46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.
47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

Verse 48 He that rejeceth Me and receiveth not my words shall be judged in the last days. Total depraved in that they have rejected so great a salvation.

The issue of ones eternal home whether with God forever or seperated from Him forever comes down to rejection of Christ. The one who rejects Christ is condemened already. God didn't choose who would accept or reject God elected us based on what HE knew beforehand about the choice one would make to reject or receive Jesus Christ. Salvation is the free gift of God given to all who will accept Him, and God knows exactly who will and who will not accept Him. Based on that knowledge peter say we are Elect, 1 Peter 1: 2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Paul in Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

That God foreknew and therfore Predestinated us to be conformed to the image of His Son, to make us Christlike, to maker us righteous, justified, sanctified, regenerated to be SAVED.

It is all based on HIS Foreknowledge of us.

How is the person that fits your definition of depraved (which is pretty much right on) ever going to "accept" Christ? If one is spiritually dead, and morally corrupt, what would ever motivate him to love God?

 

[Skandelon]

I thought that maybe the act of opening, being an act of God, might indicate how someone's heart might turn to the Lord, salvation being all of grace. But in your world, apparently, some people are just born good, or at least, not as bad as others, and they improve upon that born-with goodness when they receive the Gospel message, salvation being partly of grace and partly of human goodness.

Whoa there fella. I simply asked you a question. I never even suggested men are born sinless. I simply asked you to explain the nature of Lydia prior to God's opening of her eyes since the scripture describes her as one who worshipped the Lord? That is all. Can you explain that?