Which Mystery Would You Pick?

[KenH]

The deficiency in this

There is no deficiency in the gospel of Christ.

 

[KenH]

forgiveness and pardon is available

Forgiveness and pardon were accomplished were accomplished - "It is finished!" - by the life and death of Christ on behalf of His people, not merely made possible if they will "finish the job".

For one not to understand that God actually chose a people to actually save, that Christ actually accomplished a complete, perfect salvation for those people, and that the Holy Spirit actually regenerates those people, leaves such a one with nothing more to go on than a lick-and-a-promise gospel, which is really no gospel at all, as it is not good news.

 

[DaveXR650]

For one not to understand that God actually chose a people to actually save, that Christ actually accomplished a complete, perfect salvation for those people, and that the Holy Spirit actually regenerates those people, leaves such a one with nothing more to go on than a lick-and-a-promise gospel, which is really no gospel at all, as it is not good news.

What you are calling a "lick and a promise" is a promise from God himself. It is the warrant that John Owen taught in as he said "This is the language of the Gospel, of all that the Lord Christ did or suffered, which is recorded therein; - this is the divine testimony of the 'three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost', and of the 'three that bear witness in earth, the spirit, the water, and the blood: all give their joint testimony, that the Lord Christ is ready to receive all sinners that come to him." Whether someone be elect or not, they are addressed in the gospel as "sinners" and they are saved when they come to Christ.

And receiving the offer spelled out in the gospel is not "finishing the job". Receiving a pardon that is offered to you in no way entitles you to act as if you are somehow contributing something by the act of receiving. That is a made up fantastical way to look at something.

 

[DaveXR650]

There is no deficiency in the gospel of Christ.

Of course not. The deficiency is in the way you frame it.

 

[Blank]

By being a bother to people? Can’t they read? If God wants them He will regenerate them.

Romans 10:14 KJV
How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Romans 10:14 KJV
How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

If you need a preacher aren’t you denying God directly?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Forgiveness and pardon were accomplished were accomplished - "It is finished!" - by the life and death of Christ on behalf of His people, not merely made possible if they will "finish the job".

For one not to understand that God actually chose a people to actually save, that Christ actually accomplished a complete, perfect salvation for those people, and that the Holy Spirit actually regenerates those people, leaves such a one with nothing more to go on than a lick-and-a-promise gospel, which is really no gospel at all, as it is not good news.

Amen

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Yes, I aspire to be a peddler of the Gospel. I cannot think of a better occupation.

Yea, occupation not spiritual passion. If you can’t let God be God and allow Him to reign over mankind then you are just ignoring Gods sovereignty over His creation…then you just another fraudulent man made usurper of the divine authority of The Holy Spirit.

Thank God those you listed combated Hyper Calvinism, as they were used by the Lord in some of the greatest missionary works since Age of ther Apostles, and would not have done that if stuck in Hyper Cal mode

So what do you not understand …. the gospel is not an offer, it is a declaration. You have much to still learn.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

So Adam could have foiled God's plan by not sinning, eh?



The gospel is a declaration of the finished work of Christ on behalf of God's elect, chosen by God before the world began, to whom are granted the gift of faith and the gift of repentance of dead works, after the Holy Spirit has regenerated them(given them spiritual life).



The truth, the gospel of Christ, should be proclaimed, which includes that God chose a people before the world began, gave them to His Son to be their Surety, who died for their sins which were imputed to Him, after having lived a perfect righteousness which was imputed to them, and God's elect will be preserved by God and brought into the new heavens and the new earth, wherein dwells righteousness, when Christ returns.

God sanctified His elect in Christ, Christ perfected God's elect forever by the one offering of Himself, the Holy Spirit regenerates God's elect.

Bingo

 

[JesusFan]

Yea, occupation not spiritual passion. If you can’t let God be God and allow Him to reign over mankind then you are just ignoring Gods sovereignty over His creation…then you just another fraudulent man made usurper of the divine authority of The Holy Spirit.

So what do you not understand …. the gospel is not an offer, it is a declaration. You have much to still learn.

Its the offer of salvation given to all lost sinners, as that is the chosen means God ordained to have his own elect hear and being enabled by the Holy Spirit to receive Jesus as Lord and thus now become saved

 

[JesusFan]

If you need a preacher aren’t you denying God directly?

No, for God Himself, the Lord Jesus, commanded all of us to go forth and give the good news under Great Commission to all lost sinners

 

[DaveXR650]

This is true, whether you believe in limited atonement or not, the Gospel message that we are to share with others remains exactly the same. It makes me wonder if God would approve of us debating over little things like this when we could be using this same energy to witness to the lost.

As this thread progresses you start to see when a person's understanding of the finer points of theology matter. Eventually you do begin to affect your Christian life and your spreading of the gospel (if that even remains important at all). Because of their views people on here are flat out saying that we have the gospel wrong and are teaching a false gospel. They think it is sinful to encourage a sinner to come to Christ. At that point it is no longer a philosophical argument over tea.

As for myself, I don't believe the atonement is functionally limited in any way. Of course God, in his own mind had to have the elect in mind when Christ died unless there is a way to know everything and at the same time not know everything. I also believe that grace is often resisted to the point of damnation of the person who does so. That doesn't fit with the "L" or the "I". But it does fit with the preaching some of the most famous of the defenders of Calvinism.

If you read @Martin Marprelate's articles on church history you also realize that the very thing we criticize about Calvinists, their precise theology, also helps to preserve sound doctrine and slow down the constant erosion of practical living before God that always tends to happen with all of us throughout history. The fact that they are not perfect either doesn't change that. I don't know much about church history. I do have a good article by someone who studied the battle between Baxter and Owen over some of the points of Calvinism and what was happening to the churches at that time and how quickly things can fall apart, even in days of slow communication.

In my view the beauty in the old Calvinism of Owen and Bunyan and the Puritans is really in their emphasis on what they called "experiential" or experimental living, in obedience to scripture. Say what you want about the theology of Calvinism, but it is God honoring verses man centered in all it's forms and like I said, the Calvinism of the Puritans was also the most useful stuff written outside of scripture for those of us with a Western or European background and culture when it comes to how should we live. No one, ever, anywhere, has written better or more helpful things about the interaction that goes on at a personal level between a man and God. That's why even those who hated some of the Calvinist theology, like Wesley, loved and followed the writings of the Puritans.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Yea, occupation not spiritual passion. If you can’t let God be God and allow Him to reign over mankind then you are just ignoring Gods sovereignty over His creation…then you just another fraudulent man made usurper of the divine authority of The Holy Spirit.

Matt. 4:17. 'From that time on, Jesus began to preach and to say, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."' I just try to follow the example of my Lord and Saviour, and to obey His commands (e.g. Acts 1:8). You are constantly complaining about the low state of the cause of Christ in New Jersey; well, get off your backside and do something about it!

So what do you not understand …. the gospel is not an offer, it is a declaration. You have much to still learn.

Matthew 11:28; Acts 2:38-40; 16:31.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Matt. 4:17. 'From that time on, Jesus began to preach and to say, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."' I just try to follow the example of my Lord and Saviour, and to obey His commands (e.g. Acts 1:8). You are constantly complaining about the low state of the cause of Christ in New Jersey; well, get off your backside and do something about it!

Matthew 11:28; Acts 2:38-40; 16:31.

It isn’t “low state” rather it’s dead. So, I’m planting a Primitive Baptist church from the ruins of the Methodists, Baptists & Presbyterians who have been disfranchised…and I have approval from the PB’s to do it. No more evangelicals need apply. HOLY SPIRIT power & authority only.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

No, for God Himself, the Lord Jesus, commanded all of us to go forth and give the good news under Great Commission to all lost sinners

What happens when they tell you to take a hike? You obviously have no faith in Gods ability to transform lives… rather it’s up to you. Good luck with that.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Bingo

Ken, this evangelical movement reminds me of today’s Democrats, utterly pathetic failures. The entire NE is a Godless wasteland ready for renewal. I’ve seen time and time again this pointless nuisance activity of offering that gets nowhere…it is time to declare Gods Sovereignty in the children of Gods lives…totally.

Thank God those you listed combated Hyper Calvinism, as they were used by the Lord in some of the greatest missionary works since Age of ther Apostles, and would not have done that if stuck in Hyper Cal mode

Just so you know, they were all failures. Because if they were successful then the NYC Metro area would be crawling with Born Agains 50 miles deep. And guess what, that ain’t the reality.

 

[Blank]

If you need a preacher aren’t you denying God directly?

There is no direct access to God, our access to God comes through Jesus Christ and our knowledge of Him comes through His word, specifically the Gospel.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Its the offer of salvation given to all lost sinners, as that is the chosen means God ordained to have his own elect hear and being enabled by the Holy Spirit to receive Jesus as Lord and thus now become saved

Wrong ….the Holy Spirit regenerates…..he doesn’t need mankind to do his job. so if you want to be there after the regeneration to answer questions then do that, but to come to people and start with me with


questions like, do you believe? That’s just annoying and accomplishes nothing. Now if it was the Holy Spirit directly approaching me, convincing me, changing my heart entirely, developing in me a consciousness, then He (God) has my full attention…but not any man…like who are you?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Wrong ….the Holy Spirit regenerates…..he doesn’t need mankind to do his job. so if you want to be there after the regeneration to answer questions then do that, but to come to people and start with me with


questions like, do you believe? That’s just annoying and accomplishes nothing. Now if it was the Holy Spirit directly approaching me, convincing me, changing my heart entirely, developing in me a consciousness, then He (God) has my full attention…but not any man…like who are you?

 

[Christforums]

Four-point Calvinist Warren Wiersbe affirms both divine election and human free will. Wiersbe also recognized the difficulty in reconciling the two concepts, stating that "The mystery of divine sovereignty and human responsibility will never be solved in this life". Therefore, the fall of Adam was due to human free will.

Five-point Calvinist James White affirms divine election and rejects human free will. White also believes that God ultimately ordains all things, including the fall of Adam. Because he believes that scripture does not directly expound upon the nature of Adam’s fall, it should therefore remain a mystery.

Both men claim to have a mystery that they are stuck with and goes back to how we understand the fall of Adam. Whether or not you agree or disagree with their theologies, which of these two “mysteries” are you more likely to side with and why?

Since the days of Adam man is fallen and is in bondage to sin. Speaking in context of Adam, I do respect James White's position, G-d had not revealed his mysterious will which leaves many using inference. I believe, the least that could be said is that when the Scriptures remain silent it is wise to remain silent (like in the case of Pharoah's magicians).

On another note, if Adam was righteous, he would have crushed the head of the serpent there and then rather than engage in rational discourse and reason away the commandment of G-d and why He had intended for them not to eat of what was forbidden. Undoubtedly, Adam was tempted by external evil through the communication of Eve rather than by a fallen reprobate will at the time. And while inference is a method of interpretation there's always the risk of only sounding reasonable. This kind of topic could easily transition into supralapsarianism or infralapsarianism.

I reject free will too, that is, if meaning an autonomous will sovereign as communicated through the serpent, you'll be like G-d and able to rule over yourselves. However, if free will means w/out compulsion of the law then I believe such will in the case of charity exists and is substantiated through Scripture in what is considered a free will offering. Although, man is bound by his nature (sin is part of human nature) because the natural man or first Adam is animated by his soul rather than by the animation of the Spirit.