Which Points of Calvinism Do You Believe?

Thank you, I will research that label more. Mbut I believe there is more to election than simpy a label. Maybe this position believes that as well. None the less, I have not seen or read a book or article that effectively backs up this possition with scripture. I have written a personal commentary on Romans 9 with commentary on OT quotes. As well as studied the topic from several other angles, so I know where I stand, but putting all that researchon paper is a bit more detailed than I have time for right now. I sometimes wonder if through this process, God will turn me into a 5 pointer........my prayer is for God's descernment........but I hope I am right

I do not beleive in Salvic Predestination at all. I do not beleive the Bible teaches that. In the Bible we find many exceptions to God's ordained rules. I see no reason why Pharaoh cannot be such an exception. Or.....that Pharaoh was elected by to do his will....despite his lack of faith. Is is possible that Pharaoh is part of the elect? Do we have proof that Pharaoh died an unbeliever? These are all points I intend to study more.


Sola Fide!

K

 

"Faith alone" indeed!

FYI, I was a little confused about where you stand in some of the earlier stuff (not quoted).

I would find it difficult to accept that Pharaoh was part of the elect. So by "Salvic predestination" I think you mean that you do not believe that God predestines who will be saved, or am I reading you wrong?

Thx,

FA

 

FWIW?? I'm still trying to figure out IOW. :laugh:

I personally don't hold the position they 'may have been unbelievers', this is due to the context of verse 1 (and 3) states

That is pretty extreme for one who is a believer to deny the Christ that 'bought' them as a teaching to the body. The scripture then declares due to this they bring to themselves swift destruction - death.
But how we KNOW they were not saved via the scripture which shows in verse 3

Scripture only speaks of those whos judgment is to damnation as the unsaved or unbelieving. Now in light of context of these passages and of preceding verses we know verses 1-3 are speaking TO the church about those false teacher and prophets and declares in no uncertain terms their awaiting judgment.

But I agree with you on the Atonement of Christ Jesus for all men but applied only to many as their redemption - just as the OT describes the National atonement of Gods people Israel though not all Israel were followers of God. It was made for all but applied only to those who believed.

 

Where I stand? I stand with Christ.....I frequently stand alone....as to Almighty God, I stand in AWE.

As to TULIP.....I hold only to T and P

But....even the definition of these I am not 100% in agreement with a genuine depraved Calvinist.

Because of sin we are depraved and degenerate....but we are not without intuition and a God given brain to make choices. Christ died so that all who choose to believe might receive the salvic grace freely offered. Some will say no to God and be eternally damned. election is conditional.......it is a benefit and duty given with salvation. The Lord will never leave nor forsake those whom he has saved.

Sola fide is our part
Sola gratia is God's part
Sola Christus & Sola Scriptura are the means by which we know we need salvation.
Soli Deo Gloria is the praise we give for our salvation.



K

 

K,

Well, I don't take the T to the extent defined by Calvinism either. But I hold to a capital "U," since I do not find any conflict with free will to do so. I usually call myself a tUp. (Lowercase "p" because I see it as eternal security - "preservation of the saints" - not "perseverence of the saints," which IMO is a weak eternal security position, and could be argued not to be eternal security at all really and one based on works, not grace. IMO it's a weak position, and there is not genuine assurance of salvation held to by the adherrant - since it does not rely upon a finished fact - with certainty. The focus of my position in Christ is Christ's work... not my perseverance in good works.)

But I see election as completely unconditional - God chose us before the foundations of the world. If you want a few verses to consider in that respect...

Ephesians 1:3, 4 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavens, in Christ; for He chose us in Him, before the foundation of the world, to be holy and blameless in His sight.
...before the foundation of the world.

Revelation 13:8 All those who live on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name was not written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slaughtered.

There's that term again (the foundation of the world)... So then, those who are elect did have their name written in that book of life from the foundation of the world.

Revelation 17:8 The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up from the abyss and go to destruction. Those who live on the earth whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world will be astounded when they see the beast that was, and is not, and will be present again.

Keeps coming up. Here it is again, though a bit more subtle...

Matthew 25:34 "Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world."

God had already prepared the kingdom for the elect since the creation.

Ephesians 2:10 For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Notice that God had prepared those good works for each of us (the elect) to do before we trusted in His grace (vss. 8, 9). We are God's workmanship.

2 Thessalonians 2:13, 14 But we must always thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God has chosen you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and through belief in the truth. He called you to this through our gospel, so that you might obtain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

God called us to be saved before we ever trusted in Him - through the preaching of the gospel. I am not saying that we do not need to trust in the gospel, nor that God's grace is irresistible. But sanctification refers to the process of being set aside for His purpose. His purpose was for us to be saved and to glorify Him. He chose us, set us aside, and even set aside certain good works which He planned for us to do before we ever trusted in Him.

And of course, there's that Romans 9 text...

Romans 9:15-18 For He tells Moses: I will show mercy to whom I show mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion. So then it does not depend on human will or effort, but on God who shows mercy. For the Scripture tells Pharaoh: For this reason I raised you up: so that I may display My power in you, and that My name may be proclaimed in all the earth. So then, He shows mercy to whom He wills, and He hardens whom He wills.

To say that it depends not on human will or effort is merely saying IMO that God chose us not based on our efforts or will, but based on His own reasons. But we are not saved, we do not gain eternal life, by our efforts, but by trusting in His work. That is not typically how Reformed view that text. But election is clear there. People take either the Reformed side or the free-will side. I have to defend both positions!

Not trying to start a debate on election/free will - since I hold very strongly to both. Just something to think about.

FA

 

2 Peter 2:1b, 2 even denying the Master who bought them, and will bring swift destruction on themselves. Many will follow their unrestrained ways, and because of them the way of truth will be blasphemed (NET: slandered, reviled, treated with contempt.).

Allan,

As I see it, the way of truth is maligned because those who are believers are not behaving as they should... they have a poor testimony.

And what about vs. 20?
2 Peter 2:20 For if, having escaped the world's impurity through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in these things and defeated, the last state is worse for them than the first

They have come to know the Lord, and as a result escaped the world's impurity.

Well I agree that we do need to distinguish about who Peter is talking about here... the false prophets or those confused by their teachings.

FA

 

Not at all, and thank you for the info. These are verse I have read over and over and over.....and each time I think God tells me something new.

From what I gather, you do beleive in Salvic Predestination....however, from your pov, not all the elect, potentially, will be saved, for the human element of faith is involved. i am affraid if I were to take your position on election then I could not believe in free will.

I am greatly struggling with this in my study. The logical conclusion to Calvinism is that God has predestined some to hell. A concept I cannot agree with. I hate to use this as a precept for my study.....but for now my goal is to prove that we all have an equal chance. If I let Scripture interpret Scripture, Salvation is a avaliable to all who believe.

Sometimes it gets frustrating and I just have to step back and think of the souls I could be sharing the gospel to with all the time I waste on this topic


K

 

K,

If they are elect, then by definition they have already been chosen and WILL be saved. I think that if you look at this from a human POV only, then you would have to choose one or the other. But God is not so limited. I am convinced that unconditional election and truly free will are both biblical. You may be interested in researching "middle knowledge." God can accomplish precisely what he wants without limiting our free will.

Isaiah 55:8, 9 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are your ways my ways, says the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.

While it is a confusing fact that double predestination is logical, yet it is also true that they are condemned because they have not trusted in what Christ has done in our behalf.

Salvation is available to all who believe. Period.

FA

 

Agreed. I do not doubt that the real answer lies somewhere in the middle. A professor of mine keeps tellingme that Southern Baptist were historicall a hybrid btwn Calvinism and Arminianism. Maybe I will find the real answer in the annals of history.

I do however have to say that this is one of the oddest debates of all time. when it all boils down to it (from a Baptist perspective anyway) we really all beleivbe the same way.......but how we fit the doctrine of grace and soteriology into our systematic box is where we differ.

The unfortunate extreme ofthe debate is where Calvinists deny freewiller's beleive in the sovereignty of God.......And freewiller's accuse Calvinsits of being "un-evangelical" and "un-missional".

I am not even sure this is a secondary non-essential......I am thinking 3rd or 4th tier..........but it is fun to ponder...........I guess it is a good thing to study the Bible by day and use it as a hobby by night

K

 

K,

Well, it is certainyl easy to become too involved in such discussions and not be involved in reaching peopel for Christ and discipling them. I find that as I become involved in ministrying to people's needs, I don't care so much how those who are working with me in the ministry really think.



That's why my focus is on keeping the gospel pure... free. Because that is where the rubber hits the road.

FA

 

I'm not really sure where we are in this conversation. What I was saying is that the false teachers and prophets are not saved and that it is because of their teachings that the actaul church is affected by it.
The chapter only partially switches back and forth between the lost and the redeemed but stays mostly focused on the Falsies.
Verses 1-3 speaking specifically about them whom condemnation is awaiting (lost)
Verses 4-6 speak to those whom condemnation came to, knowing the truth and rejecting it.
Verses 7-8 speaks the "saved' that God is able to deliver them JUST as God delivered Lot from a people much the same.
Verse 9 is really the crux showing this chapter is speaking to both parties in that church body - Lost and Saved.
Verses 10-19 speak specifically again to the false teachers and prophets in so much as to identify them by their life styles and teachings and therefore revealing they are not saved and reserved for judgment due to rejecting the truth they KNOW.
Verse 20 is not speaking of the saved but the lost STILL. For a time they stepped away from the world (Professor of Christ - Seed that fell on stony ground and or thorny ground, where there is either no root in them or the world became more important to them. In either case they received the word but did not continue therein and fell away, revealing they were never of us since they did not continue with us.
This context follows through the next two verses and is summed up in the very last of the two. A dog returns to his own vomit, or as Jesus made it clear - Lord, Lord have we not done...in your name... and He will say unto them, depart from me for I NEVER knew you.

That is my take, as I think I got lost in our conversation as to what either was saying. Sorry about the length - I'm just restating in a way that looking back at my other postings I can maintain consistent thougt. :laugh:

You may disagree (I couldn't tell) but if so then that is fine, I just wanted to clarify my position if for no one else but me.

 

For what it's worth, I side with Faith Alone's interpretation. I haven't read the whole thread, so maybe someone already mentioned this, but I would add as an example the Corinthians who were disrespectful of the Lord's Supper. As a result, many were sick and others had "fallen asleep". The condemned themselves to sickness and physical death by their behavior, but it's pretty clear they were believers and were saved.

 

Fair enough... So how can a believer partake of the Lords body unworthily?? Would you conclude it is due to sin in their lives - then I would agreee as well. But would you also agree that a TRUE Child of God can not live in unconfessed sin but though they may sin can not continue IN sin because of the new nature God placed in them to BE repentent and humble before God.

So for them to eat unworthily they would have to have no regard for the death of Christ and what He did on the Cross, right? That in partaking of the Lords Supper in unconfessed sin they willfully and without contrition bring sin into their union with Christ having no fear and trembling. Is this not reminisant of the unregenerate. I personally contend that those who died or fell ill we unsaved because they partook UNWORTHILY of the Lords supper not DISERNING His body. I don't know of any time in scripture that a believer was called a false teacher or false prophet since the implication historically (Old Testimant) was they are to be put to death. They are NOT of God and by pretending to speak on His behalf they lead His people astray. However as the text states God will save His people from those Falsies just as He did with Lot. However, those False teachers and prophets scriptures states are reserved for damnation, something a believer is not set aside for.

 

2 Peter 2 analysis

OK, I guess I better go into this in more depth...

I actually think that the pig and dog viewed here are referring to Christians. Now certainly there are many people who take up space in church pews each Sunday morning who may even think that they are Christians, but who are not. But IMO this text is referring to people who are saved, then seduced by these false teachers and end up in a state more miserable than before. So I am not saying that these false teachers are saved - though that would be possible, but that the ones they deceive are... in this instance. Anyway. I'll list the text and my opinion after it. But let me explain again, for those of you who don't know me well yet, my basic approach to these "warning passages." Because I will likely handle them, in general, in a different manner than most Reformed will do in terms of the "perseverance of the saints." In general where often a passage is viewed as not referring to Christians, I tend to see it as indeed referring to believers, but not referring to a loss of salvation.

2 Peter 2:17-22 NASB - These are springs without water and mists driven by a storm, for whom the black darkness has been reserved. For speaking out arrogant words of vanity they entice by fleshly desires, by sensuality, those who barely escape from the ones who live in error, promising them freedom while they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by what a man is overcome, by this he is enslaved. For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them. It has happened to them according to the true proverb, "A dog return to its own vomit," and, "A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire."

OK, 1st, notice that there is a change in who is being referred to as we go through the passage. We have to ask ourselves who "these, "they" and "them" refer to. IMO in vss 17, 18a and preceding the pronouns refer to false teachers. However, in verses 18b through 22, in general they refer to people (believers) who have been duped by these false teachers. This distinction is important because many assume that the pronouns in vss. 18b and following are referring to these same false teachers.

Verses 18 and 20 indicate that the people being drawn into sin by the false teachers are those who have actually "barely escaped from the ones who live in error" and who have "escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord..." Only believers fit that description, IMO.

The word "knowledge" (GINWSKW) in v 20 is the same term which is used in chap. 1 in vss. 2 thru 6. It is a term used in 2 Peter exclusively regarding believers, IMO, though we cannot base such a distinction on a word choice completely, so I will not be adament about such usage by Peter. In general, in the Bible it is used to refer to a more intimate and experiential knowledge. OIDA is the other commonly used Greek NT term for "knowledge," FYI. They are synonyms, but there is this distinction. IOW, Peter is referring to people who "escaped the defilements of the world" through the "[experiential] knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ."

I don't think that anyone doubts that 2 Peter is addressed to believers, in general, and I'm sure that those who say that these verses are speaking of a loss of salvation will say that the people drawn into a pattern of becoming slaves to sinful habits are believers also, or these verses will serve them no purpose. So I won't spend a great deal of time developing the argument that they're believers, though many who hold to a view of eternal security, take a different position on these verses (Though our final conclusion is the same).

2nd, it should be clear from all 3 chapters of 2 Peter that Peter is concerned that his readers - who are believers - might fall into a sinful lifestyle as a result of the deception of the false teachers. Peter implores them to be diligent so as to keep from stumbling & falling (See 2 Peter 1:5-11, 2:18-22 - our text, and 3:14).

2 Peter 1:5-11 - For this very reason, make every effort to supplement your faith with goodness, goodness with knowledge, knowledge with self-control, self-control with endurance, endurance with godliness, godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love. For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they will keep you from being useless or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. The person who lacks these things is blind and shortsighted, and has forgotten the cleansing from his past sins. Therefore, brothers, make every effort to confirm your calling and election, because if you do these things you will never stumble. For in this way, entry into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be richly supplied to you.

2 Peter 3:14 - Therefore, dear friends, while you wait for these things, make every effort to be found in peace without spot or blemish before Him.

One common assumption is that if anyone that Peter is writing to here should fall away and become entangled in the same sinful lifestyle they lived before being saved that they were really what is often referred to as "false professors." I don't like that term, because it's often mis-used. Hmmm, Joe Blow stopped walking with the Lord - he's back into the same old drugs and junk? Well, just goes to show that he wasn't really saved in the first place - he's just a false professor. Certainly it is true that there are many false professors in our churches, but I don't think that this applies to this passage. Peter never questions the faith of his readers. He never hints at any false profession of faith. Rather, in fact he acknowledges it emphatically in 1:1. (Simon Peter, a slave and an apostle of Jesus Christ: To those who have obtained a faith of equal privilege with ours through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ.) What he does question is the progress of their sanctification. "Are they set-apart for the Lord's service?" "Are they growing into a deeper walk with their Lord?" "Are they abiding in Christ?" "Are they living in victory over sin?" But not, "Are they still saved?" or "Are they really saved?"

3rd, the real question to ask is then ->
What does Peter warn his readers (believers) will happen to them if they do fall? Is eternal judgment, hell-fire, in view? Many will surely point to vss 21 & 22 and exclaim "Yes!" However, IMO if we read those 2 verses carefully we will see that actually they speak of a temporal judgment, not hell. They warn such fallen believers of significant discipline by the Lord and serious consequences - but not hell. Instead of trying to focus so much on what IS said, notice what is NOT said.

Peter makes no reference to hell, the lake of fire, unending suffering, or any similar term or expressions of eternal condemnation. In the next verse (3:1 - remember that these were letters written with no chapter or verse divisions, of course.) ->

2 Peter 3:1, 2 - Dear friends (lit. - "beloved"), this is now the second letter I've written you; in both, I awaken your pure understanding with a reminder, so that you can remember the words previously spoken by the holy prophets, and the commandment of our Lord and Savior given through your apostles.

Those who had gone back to wallow in the mud and to the vomit are tenderly referred to as "beloved," or "dear friends." These are Christians who have gone back to their own, former pattern of living. Notice that Peter is confident that it will not remain that way, though. Of course, in 3:1 Peter is referring to ALL of the believers he was writing, not just those in the churches who were falling back into their former, sinful lifestyles, hence the switch from referring to "those" and "them" to "you." But IMO they are clearly included.

OK, we've looked at what it did NOT say. But what he DOES say is that it would be better for a believer never to have known the way of righteousness than to have known it and then have returned to an immoral lifestyle.

How can that be? What does Peter mean? Is Peter saying that for someone who has come to believe in Jesus Christ and to follow Him that it would have been better for them if they had never come to Christ than to come to faith in Christ, and then go back to living like they did before their life was changed? And if so, how can such a view line up with one of eternal security? Why would Peter say such a thing?!

"It would be better for them..."

Just what does that mean?

Guess you'll have to read the 2nd part to find out.

FA

 

2 Peter 2 analysis - continued

Continued...

Now think about it. How many of us have known the Lord long enough to get into some pretty bad sin? How did you feel while you were struggling in that debilitating lifestyle? I don't know about you, but I felt terrible. I hated to get up in the morning. I slept in and didn't want to get up and face reality. I was depressed and discouraged. I tried to act like everything was "cool" to my friends and co-workers, but I was miserable. Now when someone who has known the Lord falls back into the same sinful pattern of living as he was caught up into before it's much worse than if he had never known what it's like to live by faith in Christ - to know Him intimately. And IMO a Christian can indeed fall deeply into a pattern of sin. He can be "blind and shortsighted," and "forget that he was cleansed from his past sins" as Peter said earlier in this letter (chapter 1).

But at the time someone is struggling in sin, what if some well-intentioned Christians told them that they had never really been saved in the first place? Hah!

That wouldn't exactly inspire them to get out of that sin. Actually, at the time they often know that those who say such things are wrong.

Those last couple of verses in 2 Peter 2 are teaching that is that there are consequences for a life of sin, but the consequences and frustration are even worse for believers! We are children of God. The Holy Spirit has taken up residence in us. So we become convicted by the Holy Spirit of our sin that the unbeliever may just shrug off. No doubt about it - we're really miserable when that happens. And the Lord will continue to discipline us more severely, not to punish us, but so that we may be drawn out of our sin and back into fellowship with Him.

It needs to be stated that some who hold to the Reformed eternal security teaching of "perseverance of the saints" say that the reference to dogs and pigs in verse 22 is proof that false professors are in view - that they were never REALLY regenerated, since dogs is a common reference to unbelieving Gentiles, and pigs - well, certainly would not be a reference to some Jew who was following the Lord. The sensual license alluded to here appeals to some people who are just learning the gospel and weighing its claim on their lives, it is said. These enticed people who are "escaping from those who live in error" are not believers, according to many.

But IMO they were and are indeed Christians. In the allegory it refers to a dog that had vomited - he then went back to it. And the pig was clean - a reference to his saved status - yet he went back to wallow in the mud. These proverbial expressions are parallel - they're teaching the same thing, and were probably well-known proverbs at the time something like, "it's all water under the bridge." Peter used both to illustrate a believer who was "cleaned" of his sins, then went back to wallow in it again. But to "go back" to that mud or vomit does NOT mean that the believer had lost their position in the heavenly places with Christ, IMO... that cannot happen. So then, just what does it mean? What is Peter warning his readers about?

Look at 2 Peter 1:9 -> "The person who lacks these things is blind and shortsighted, and has forgotten the cleansing from his past sins." But what is the context of verses 1:3-11? Peter has told us that we have everything we need so that we can live godly lives (vss. 3, 4) -> "For His divine power has given us everything required for life and godliness, through the knowledge (GINWSKW) of Him who called us by His own glory and goodness. By these He has given us very great and precious promises, so that through them you may share in the divine nature, escaping the corruption that is in the world because of evil desires." Now all of our sins were paid for and cleansed - past, present and future - when we trusted in Jesus Christ. We were freed from those sins that enslaved us. But if you read Romans 6 you will see there Paul speaking about the necessity to choose to not let sin "reign in our mortal bodies to obey its desires," for "sin will have no dominion over you since you are not under law but under grace."

He told them there to "consider [themselves] dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus." The believer has to choose to serve the Lord and not sin. In 2 Peter 1, Peter says that when a believer walks in the darkness of sin he has really forgotten who he is and has allowed the flesh to significantly affect his choices in life. (See 1:9 above.) The word "better" in 2 Peter 2:21 is also critical. When would it be better to not have known what it is like to follow Christ?

Better in this life.

Think about it again. Those false teachers were promising their followers that they would be free if they just threw off the shackles - if it feels good, do it. But that was not true, of course. And notice what these believers had done? They had "turned away from the holy commandment handed on to them." This commandment is not referring to the gospel. That's not a commandment. No, this commandment is the royal law of love, and to love the Lord our God with all our heart, soul, and mind and our neighbor as ourselves. Jesus said that such should characterize those who follow Him.

BTW, it is translated something like, "it was better for them not to have known the way of righteousness..." In the Greek, the verb translated "have known is EPEGNWKENAI (perfect infinitive of EPIGNWSKW). Now the perfect tense is a neat one. It refers to something that happened at a point in time in the past, with a state that continues into the present. IOW, these were still in a state of having known the way of righteousness. IMO that makes it kinda hard to view them as unbelievers. That's a key reason why I take the position I do, BTW. This is not saying that they had known the way of righteousness - considered it, but no longer do. They remain in a state of having known the way of righteousness. Of course, we have to be careful about taking the perfect tense too far, but it is something to consider.

Which reminds me. IMO, those "false teachers" above were not believers in this instance. But could they have been? Do believers actually teach things such as we read about here? Yes, some do. But the context of 2 Peter, IMO, is of false teachers in chapter 2 who are not believers. But due to the way I view the pronouns above, it really doesn't matter.

Earlier in this chapter (2) Peter refers to them as...

2 Peter 2:12-14 But these people, like irrational animals - creatures of instinct born to be caught and destroyed - speak blasphemies about things they don't understand, and in their destruction they too will be destroyed, suffering harm as the payment for unrighteousness. They consider it a pleasure to carouse in the daytime. They are blots and blemishes, delighting in their deceptions as they feast with you, having eyes full of adultery and always looking for sin, seducing unstable people, and with hearts trained in greed...

Later he refers to them as abandoning the straight path... like Balaam. Now Balaam was a false teacher. But what do we know about him? He knew that God was going to bless the Israelites, so he could not prophesy any differently... but he wanted to be able to curse them! Why? Because of a greedy heart. And what did he do? He gave advice to the king of Moab to use their women to seduce the Israelite men. (Let's face it, we men are such dupes at times for nice legs!) Peter is upset about the impure motives of these false teachers who are drawing away some of the Christians, such as Balaam had done. Just as with Balaam, Peter questions the real motives of those false teachers. He is convinced they are not genuinely concerned for the welfare of these Christians they're duping.

I would like to briefly add something, just for the sake of making my view of God's grace clear, in general. I am a dad. I love my children dearly. Absolutely nothing they have done or can do will ever cause me to stop loving them. Can God love His children any less? I discipline them, because as it says in Proverbs, a child not disciplined - just left to himself - is one that is really not loved. If I love them, I will discipline them. Similarly, God disciplines us. He does it to help us to grow in maturity. Now, I never tell my children that if they don't shape up and do such-n-such that I will disown them. I try not to give such sweeping ultimatums. Does it make sense that a God of AGAPH love will love us any less? Will He dangle us over the pits of hell-fire? May it never be! (MH GENOITO )

IMO, this particular passage is not one of the more difficult ones to understand in terms of eternal security. If we read it in context of the entire letter it makes sense. Peter's warning to these Christians was NOT to threaten them of a possible loss of their eternal salvation. But much CAN be lost. And not only in this life - which was Peter's focus, IMO. We can lose the opportunity to reap rewards in the kingdom as well.

Thx much,

FA

 

Sorry, I shouldn't have jumped in without reading the whole thread. I was responding to FA's quotes of 2 Peter.

As for your response, the first part smacks of the misinterpretation of scripture that I hear from most pulpits today. I think you're agreeing with me that it had nothing to do with unconfessed sin. It was that they were getting drunk, being unloving and disrespectful of one another, and those were symptoms of the fact that they were not discerning His body in the Lord's supper.

 

Allan,

Sorry to jump in here, but since this thread is on the points of Calvinism we agree with or do not agree with...

I do not agree with this particular tenet of reformed theology. I agree that if anyone has trusted in Christ that God has caused them to become a new creation in Christ. But that new creation can still struggle with sin until they receive their new body. Hence in 1 Corinthians Paul refers to the natural person, the spiritual person, and the fleshky (carnal) person. The 2nd two are both saved:

1 Corinthians 2:14- 3:3[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica] But the natural man does not welcome what comes from God's Spirit, because it is foolishness to him; he is not able to know it since it is evaluated spiritually. The spiritual person, however, can evaluate everything, yet he himself cannot be evaluated by anyone. For: who has known the Lord's mind, that he may instruct Him? But we have the mind of Christ.

[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Brothers, I was not able to speak to you as spiritual people but as people of the flesh, as babies in Christ. I fed you milk, not solid food, because you were not yet able to receive it. In fact, you are still not able, because you are still fleshly. For since there is envy and strife among you, are you not fleshly and living like ordinary people?

The "fleshly person" above is a "brother in Christ," yet he is "fleshly and behaving like an ordinary (unsaved) person."

FA
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:thumbs: You got that right Psalm 109:31. -- John Henry

THE CALVINIST T. U. L. I. P. REFUTED BY SCRIPTURE​

Compiled by John Henry​

INTRODUCTION:

Calvinism is a man made philosophy depending on fallible human logic which total ignores many clear Scriptures, perverts many, and misuses others. Long before John Calvin's time the teaching was presented by the Roman Catholic heretic Augustine. Here are some Scriptures soundly refute the errors of the Calvinist TULIP:


T = TOTAL INABILITY (Calvinism teaches the inability of man to choose Truth, but the Word of God teaches that God created man with the ability to reason, choose, and receive Truth):


Ephesians 2:8: "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."

Romans 10:17: "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God."

James 1:21: "Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and RECEIVE with meekness the engrafted Word, which is able to save your souls."

Isaiah1:18: "Come now, and let us REASON together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool."

Deuteronomy 30:19: "I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore CHOOSE LIFE, that both thou and thy seed may live."

Joshua 24:15: "And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, CHOOSE you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."

Psalm 119:30, 111, 173: "I have CHOSEN The Way of Truth: Thy Judgments have I laid before me....Thy Testimonies have I taken as an heritage for ever: for They are the rejoicing of my heart....Let Thine hand help me; for I have chosen Thy Precepts."

John 1:12: "But as many as RECEIVED him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name."

2 Timothy 1:12: "...I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have COMMITTED unto him against that day."


U = UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION (Calvinism teaches that God selects those who are to be saved without any condition, but the Bible teaches that there is one condition to salvation: faith):

1 Peter 1:2: "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ..."

2 Thessalonians 2:13: "...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the Truth."

Luke 7:50: "... Thy faith hath saved thee ..."

Ephesians 2:8: "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."


L = LIMITED ATONEMENT (Calvinism teaches that Christ died only for the elect, but the Bible teaches that He died for all mankind):

Isaiah 53:6: "All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us ALL."

1 Timothy 4:10: "For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of ALL MEN, specially of those that believe."

1 John 2:2: "And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of THE WHOLE WORLD."

Hebrews 2:9: "But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that He by the grace of God should taste death for EVERY MAN."

1 Timothy 2:4: "Who will have ALL MEN to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the Truth."


I = IRRESTABLE GRACE (Calvinism teaches that God's grace for salvation cannot be resisted, but the Word of God says it can be resisted):

Matthew 23:37: "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and YE WOULD NOT!"

John 5:39-40: "Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. And YE WILL NOT come to me, that ye might have life."

Acts 7:51: "Ye stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always RESIST the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye."

Proverbs 1:24-26: "Because I have called, and YE REFUSED; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded; But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof: I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh."

Proverbs 29:1: "He, that being often reproved HARDENETH HIS NECK, shall suddenly be destroyed, and that without remedy."


P = PERSEVERANCE (The Bible teaches preservation of the saints; not perseverance of the saints):

Jude 1: "... to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and PRESERVED in Jesus Christ..."

1 Thessalonians 5:23-24: "And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly: and I pray God your whole spirit and soul, and body be PRESERVED blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it. "

John 10:27-29: "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life: and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all, and no man is able to pluck them out of my Fathers hand."

Colossians 3:3-4: "For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory."

Hebrews 7:25: "Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them."


CONCLUSION:

Calvinism clearly errs from the teaching of the Word of God on all 5 points of it's TULIP. The logical conclusion of Calvinism is that God is an unfair respecter of persons who chooses people to salvation, not according to any standard that He established, but solely according to His will. This strikes at the love and justice of God, and rejects man's responsibility to choose and love his Creator.

Proverbs 24:23: "... It is not good to have respect of persons in judgment."

Acts 10:34-35: "... Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth Him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with Him."

John 6:28-29: "... What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? ... This is the work of God, that ye believe on Him whom He hath sent.

Ephesians 2:8: "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."



http://heresies.LandmarkBibleBaptist.net/calvinism.htm

 

Well, Faith Alone, what is important is not what we think (Proverbs :5-6), but what the Lord says. There is a principle of Bible interpretation that says, Scripture interprets Scripture (Isaiah 9-10, 13; 1 Cor 2:12-13).

Using both this principle and the context of the passage we can see that this verse is speaking of lost "false teachers ... whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not."(2 Peter 2:1-3 ff) who are the equivalent of the dogs and wolves that are defined for us in the New Testament as hell bound false prophets and false teachers.

Matthew 7:15: "Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep?s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves."

Matthew 10:16: "Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves."

Acts 20:29: "For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock."

Philippians 3:2: "Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision."

Revelation 22:15: "For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie."

Matthew 7:6: "Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you."

Likewise swine are always spoken of as unclean and habitable for devils.

When we look at the Biblical typeology of wolves and swine we clearly the sow and dog of 2 Peter 2 are lost people.

-- John Henry

http://LandmarkBibleBaptist.net


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Welcome to the BB , JBH . I assume you arew new with less than 30 posts .

I disagree with several items of Agustine's theology . But he was no heretic as in a big H . Are you a fan of Pelagius then ? He totally opposed Augustine's teachings on grace . Are you on his side ?

I will just mention a couple of things about your post # 118 .

Under your disavowal of Total Depravity I noted that you completely failed to come to grips with Eph. 2:1 ; Eph. 4:18 ; Col. 2:13 and 1 Cor. 2:14 for starters . So your "refutation" is not so compelling . I'd like to know how you explain this . Everyone has a natural antipathy toward God . We are at enmity toward Him , hostile in our minds . We are slaves to sin . Please tell me how your "free-will" was able to overcome all that .

On another matter you think Calvinism teaches that God picks those of His choosing -- "solely according to His will ." You have a vehemence toward that last item . Why ? Everything is done according to His will . Why would any Christian disagree with that ?

You think that God's election is unfair . I know you are a newbie , but come on . Salvation is granted to those of His choosing . It is not a matter of justice (for justice is fairness ) . Every human deserves condemnation . That's justice for ya' . You can't blame God for choosing to save those He wants . It is His perfect right . He's God ! Further , He hardens the rest because it is His will to do so .